If you want to vote against Biden do it between February and June during the primarys. Primary races are the time to vote with your heart find your dream candidate and go for it. In November you have 2 choices.
Multiple choices. Dem, GOP, third party, refrain from voting, etc
Nope 2 choices “DEM vs NOT DEM” or “GOP vs NOT GOP” America has a first past the post voting system it looks like an election between candidates but it’s effectively each candidate versus the 50% threshold.
There’s not even a 50% threshold, it’s just whoever receives the most ballots cast. They might win with only 10% of eligible voters in a state, as long they have at least 1 more vote than anyone else on the ballot.
Unfortunately, due to the systems we have in place, anything past the first to amounts to being a conscientious objector. Which generally just means the greater of two evils has a greater chance of succeeding.
Edited for sanity.
Unfortunately, due to the systems we have in place, anything past the first to amounts to being a conscientious objector. Which generally just means the greater of two evils has a greater chance of succeeding.
you’d be right. Except right now, this is Primary Season, not regular election season. the RNC has nothing to do with what is essentially a choice internal to the DNC as to who their best candidate is supposed to be.
it’s patently disingenuous to say that right now, a vote for any one other than Biden lets somebody whose not even up for DNC candidacy win. according to Biden himself, there are fifty other candidates who’re able to beat trump. So there’s far more than 2 choices.
Didn’t read the root comment? This distinction was already made.
Two choices: Dem or GOP
Multiple choices. Dem, GOP, third party, refrain from voting, etc
You mean, like the primaries that dems are purposely not holding because the feckless are afraid of actual progressives?
Like, the primaries that are supposed to be going on… now?
That was the candidate’s fault in Tennessee & Florida. Better to for the world to know they are morons now instead of always wondering. Candidates like that shouldn’t be near power.
?
Isnt it like a binary choice? It annoys me that fellow peeps are this stupid if my understanding is correct…
Yes. They are this stupid. Or this is propaganda by big corporations in favor of Republicans.
Certainly hearing the same tune over and over again. Seems like it could be a propaganda effort. It is a little hard to believe lots of people are this…obtuse?
I guess it is possible that if someone doesn’t consume any (reliable) news and has zero understanding of politics and how it matters to the everyday peon, then they might not have learned anything during the Trump presidency.
The adults in the room need to do whatever we can to get people to vote and donate time or money to campaigns. Local, state, and US Congress elections matter the most.
Civics classes have been cut for decades. Even when I was a kid they never explained that you had to vote for someone you didn’t like.
South Park already dealt with this aha. Douchebag or Turd Sandwich—decide lol
It’s more like a root canal vs a bullet to the head. Both are gonna hurt, but only one is good for you in the long run
Can you explain exactly what people hate so much about Biden?
Like I get he sucked a lot in the past and gave you Clarence Thomas and differential racist treatment of cocaine vs crack cocaine offenders but I don’t get whats currently so terrible about him besides hes old and he has a sketchy history of political disingenuousness
- the economy is still pretty shitty for most Americans. broadcasting how good it is for the few that it’s actually amazing… is not going to win many friends.
- Biden is pushing for military support of a genocidal, apartheid state.
- his support for abortion is… less actual support and more just him keeping his mouth shut. he’s personally apposed to it. One wonders if we’d have RvW codified in law if a progressive was in office.
- afaik, none of the student loan debt that’s gotten forgiven wasn’t already supposed to be forgiven… years, or even decades, ago. he’s done very little to actually lower the cost of tuition and such, or to curtail the blatant financial fraud that kept people locked into crippling debt.
- climate change, They’re also basically corporate love notes. the funding for climate change, largely is a lot of tax incentives for companies to do what they were going to do anyhow… while also not directly addressing the issues of climate change… (or, directly counter to it- see re-opening the Willow Project in Alaska. after promising no new oil drilling…)
- he’s old, and not nearly as progressive as more than half the people that would be voting DNC. (note I’m very carefully not saying ‘democrats’, because there are a lot of people my age who are progressive independents.we still largely vote blue, but we don’t trust institutions because… why should we?)
Punted a Bork nomination and had to eat the Thomas one instead. Sucked all round & Bork openly against Civil Rights & Privacy which would have been at odds with Roe.
His handling of Israel’s genocide is a big one. This isn’t just because America, Biden’s handling of this mess has been uniquely horrible, and it’s losing him votes.
To…Trump? I totally get what your saying but does Trump plan to call out Bibi, like I don’t get how eviler is comparatively more appropriate than garden-variety evil/negligent
No Trump is obviously worse. But lesser of two evil stuff doesn’t get turnout. Biden needs to convince people to vote for him, not against Trump, and he’s currently doing the opposite of that.
I love name+language games like that!
Chad Chadinson!
The primary election isn’t about who will be president. It’s about who will be a given party’s candidate (to be president.).
which means that right now, Biden is not competing with Trump, and Trump is not competing with Biden, because they’re in diametrically apposed parties. refusing to even consider alternatives to Biden when Biden is extremely and deeply unpopular across large swaths of the DNC base is… pretty myopic… if you’re goal is to defeat Trump in November.
apposed
Not being a dick but did you mean
opposed or literallyapposed?I don’t get what
appositionis, its a weird word+concept
Not voting is an option :(
(Edit to add: To be clear, I put a frowny face because it’s an option some people take, but I wasn’t endorsing it. And I’m not American…)
Seriously, fuck that. Pick a damn lane, you don’t not vote when Hitler/his modern day political equivalents are in the picture…
What’s Nikki Haley’s deal besides she’s a she?
Then we should all vote for the guy that allowing genocide like Hitler did, right?!? Because genocide is the lesser evil, right?
I think you shouldn’t do what actual Hitler’s protègé wants and
- [x]
not vote
Biden was never getting my vote anyway. Red fascist, blue fascist, its all fascism. And there is NO acceptable level of evil.
Does it bother you that you’re kind of doing what Republicans “want you to do” and disenfranchise yourself reflexively?
Definitely interestedin your perspectives but I would also like to get your commentary on the notion :)
I’m not disenfranchised, the oligarchy has done this
- [x]
To be clear: I put a frowny face because it’s an option some people take, but I wasn’t endorsing it.
Ah k but I still think its worthwhile to address it, I think I actually upvoted you because I wanted to take a stab at the idea not you ;)
Edit: Ya I definitely upvoted u. I’m weird like that, a comment has to be pretty agregious or me pretty out of sorts to generally downvote something I think is relevant even if its disagreeable
Fair enough
Not casting a ballot is the stupidest option available. It will only ever send the message that your opinion doesn’t matter and no party will try to win your vote. Showing up to vote, and casting an empty ballot is how you send the message that all the candidates suck. You’ve proven you have the motivation to show up and as such your opinion matters and candidates will try and win your vote.
To be clear: I put a frowny face because it’s an option some people take, but I wasn’t endorsing it.
That’s how I interpreted your comment. 👍
To the down-voter who didn’t reply: Do you really think that not voting motivates a candidate in the next election to seek out your opinions on the issues to win your vote? Has it worked for you yet?
Not voting is still choosing Dem or GOP; it’s just silencing your own preference between the two and putting your faith in your countrymen to make the right decision… many hundreds of thousands of which are fucking morons.
I really, strongly encourage you to show up and pick the least-bad candidate who has a realistic shot at winning.
To be clear: I put a frowny face because it’s an option some people take, but I wasn’t endorsing it.
(also I’m not American if that wasn’t clear from my username)
If you mean vote for him vs. not vote for him, then yes.
If you mean vote for him vs. the Republican nominee, then no, as there are other options. For starters the article seemed to suggest that some may just not vote at all. They also might vote for him but do so reluctantly, e.g. without discussing with their friends strongly promoting the voting for Biden as they did in the last election.
But it’s a long way to the actual election, and campaigning has not started in earnest yet.
How could that ever be successful? I like the Billions paraphrase
anybody making a bet they don’t know works out [Cotton] is a sucker [schmuck, my word]
—Billions
“Successful”? Ah, I see, you think they are making their choices strategically, rather than emotionally. Interesting. :-D
I kid, but there actually is strategy involved there - by saying that their votes cannot be “counted on”, they could be attempting to wrangle additional concessions.
Ofc there is a bunch of nonsense going on as well - e.g. blaming Biden for not managing to codify Roe v. Wade, in this Congress!? They would have a better chance of asking to go to the moon - that is expensive but at least possible in theory!:-P I mention Congress ofc bc that is the government body that passes laws - the Presidency enforces, maybe vetoes, but does not make laws, so having a President receptive to and even someone who heavily pushes for a certain thing is not sufficient. Contrary to popular opinion, the Presidency has many limitations, and you do not simply show up to vote and somehow life gets “all better”, as some seem to think. Young people can be quite inexperienced and naive sometimes.
Then again, it was not young people that gave us Trump, and if they choose not to bail this country out again a second time, especially if they vote their conscience as a result of Israel (right or wrong mind you, in fact especially the latter), I will not be blaming the least experienced among us as the scapegoat to all of life’s problems… It should not be the case that it is up to those least prepared to deal with a situation, to be the deciding factor that “saves” us all - and the fact that we continue to ignore this aspect every time the young people show up to do so, shows how perilous the situation truly is. Maybe next time they won’t? If so, then we never deserved saving in the first place… bc that’s not freedom, to continually lie in the shadow of destruction.
blaming Biden for not managing to codify Roe v. Wade, in this Congress!?
yes. he likes to take sole credit for their victories, he can also take some credit for their failings, too. Shoulda kept Manchin on a shorter leash.
Not that I imagine biden tried all that hard on it. I mean, he once voted to overturn it. in 1982… he still says that he’s personally opposed. I just imagine it’s not on his list of things he really gives a damn about, but somebody in his camp managed to convince him he at least needs to shut up about.
That’s probably the gist of it right there in fairness - he could have tried harder. Then again, he knows what’s what, and like (a) the mess he inherited from the previous occupant of the job took an enormous amount of effort to deal with, like basically ALL of the efforts, really, that were to spare (and things like the border crisis, huge spike in homelessness, greedflation, etc. continue onwards even now), and so (b) to have fought the good fight would have come at the cost of enormous political capital that would have prevented other things from happening. Thought experiment: what would Dems be willing to give up, in order to have made a useless (I mean purely in the sense of doomed to failure in the short term, though ultimately such things may need a coordinated effort over many years) attempt to appear to try to codify Roe v. Wade? Would we have been willing to sacrifice funding for Ukraine? Passing a budget for the year at all? College loan remittance? Political capital has limits, so in order to work towards that goal, something else must be sacrificed, that’s just reality.
Also, unpopular opinion alert - or rather, adjacent to one, in the service of a deeper understanding - women are not prevented from having abortions, at least on the federal level. If a state such as Florida or Texas etc. prevents such a thing, then don’t live in those states? There are MANY things going on in those states - book burnings, teacher shortages, also libraries, also doctors/nurses, also basic infrastructure, the list just goes on forever - and Biden is merely one old man, so what is he being asked to do, replace Jesus in those states? There is only so much that he or any one person could do. e.g., when a Supreme Court seat opens up, that’s when he can do a lot to work towards his goal, but I cannot say this loudly enough, even as a President he cannot pass laws. He can be part of a solution but he cannot be the entirety of one. Nor should he be.
He could stop sending weapons to Israel. That would be a nice start.
Okay, a fair point, but… we were talking about abortion:-D. (also, can we stop, or is it a stipulation somewhere in the contract that we must send? perhaps any time they are “attacked” we must automatically send a certain amount? there may be more there than the for-profit news media is willing to tell us, thinking that we are too dumbp to undermastand so they instead just focus on emotional one-liners that generate more clicks…)
Then again, he knows what’s what, and like (a) the mess he inherited from the previous occupant of the job took an enormous amount of effort to deal with, like basically ALL of the efforts, really, that were to spare (and things like the border crisis, huge spike in homelessness, greedflation, etc. continue onwards even now), and so (b) to have fought the good fight would have come at the cost of enormous political capital that would have prevented other things from happening.
Enormous? I don’t think Manchin was all that expensive of lay.
Abortion is the most prominent example of how Biden’s positions diverge from most his base… because most his base have sex. sorry to be so blunt. It’s not healthcare to his mindset because it’s not something he and his partner are likely to need any time soon. and likely the same for… every friend his age. To young twenty-somethings looking to establish themselves and not get burdened with the obscene costs of having a child… it’s far more than “just” healthcare.
There’s other issues that his age puts him on the wrong side of- or could be conceived as such. the housing crisis, for example. in the short term (next decade,) the housing bubble is benefiting retirees resolving it means the prices come down… and houses represent a large (quite possibly the largest) chunk of their net worth. There’s also climate change, which… just isn’t an issue for him. he will not live to see the consequences of failing.
and he is failing. Is he failing less badly than republicans? certainly. But if we don’t get our shit together in the next few years… the world is fucked. no that’s not right. The world is already fucked. we don’t get our shit together, the world is fucked to death. climate change is an existential crisis. Not in the “humanity will cease to exist” existential crisis. But in the “Society will fundamentally reshape itself” sort.
I should have admitted in my previous response that I might be biased, trying to find a shred of hope where none exists. But also I aim not to be either an optimist nor a pessimist, but a realist. I do not claim to actually know what that means here though:-).
That said, what I said earlier still seems true to me: if you live in a state that allows - maybe even enshrines? - abortion as a right, then its being banned in other states affects you none to little (unless you actively visit those states, perhaps even traveling through them on the way to other states?), while if you live in a state that bans abortions, you have MANY problems, of which that is merely one of them (a big one to be sure). So it is one issue - perhaps the biggest of our time - and yet all of that said… what are we going to ACTUALLY DO about it? Congress needs to pass a law to make a decision one way or the other. Or else individual states need to do that. So far, Congress is more divided than it has ever been (during the Civil War, the South did not send their representatives anymore, so bills actually got passed!:-P), and we are looking towards another constitutional crisis happening as soon as the very next election, possibly spilling out into actual bloodshed. I don’t, but listen to the rhetoric on the side most likely to fire the first shot, and tell me that has no chance of happening, sometime in the next ten years? So yeah, I believe Biden when he says that it would be a difficult ask to get such a thing through Congress right now… that’s not about what’s right or what’s wrong, it’s about what’s possible at the current time.
Also look at democracy globally - like UK with Boris Johnson, Brazil with Bolsonaro, uh… right now is not a good time for democracy it seems. I am not speaking out against it, just echoing your thoughts that we are already fucked, in so many more ways than one, since it seems that our particular brand of it (meaning: coupled with low levels of edumacashion), seems to be vulnerable to certain outside parties who may have interests in interfering with our electoral processes? :-(
And in the midst of ALL of that, what the Dems offer is… Biden. Yeah, I know, but it’s not about what’s ideal, it’s about what is possible.
Queue the tide of rhetoric insisting it’s between Biden and Trump…. And we’re the problem for not voting they way they tell us to.
We are not telling you how to vote.
We are pointing at the massive, red, flashing danger sign around Trumps neck. The dude has literally said he’s going to be a dictator day one, and once a country starts down that path, the only way out is massive amounts of bloodshed.
Oh, and don’t think any country is gonna drop what they are doing to help us.
You vote to stop that first, then your generation needs to run for office at the state level. THATS where the real power lies.
We are pointing at the massive, red, flashing danger sign around Trumps neck. The dude has literally said he’s going to be a dictator day one, and once a country starts down that path, the only way out is massive amounts of bloodshed.
right now in primary season, trump has nothing to do with who the DNC candidate is. If you were truly motivated by defeating trump, you’d be looking at the “probably 50 other democrats” who could also defeat trump, because the absolute best way to defeat trump is to, you know, select the best candidate. Which is increasingly not Biden.
Oh and that number of fifty comes directly from Biden himself. just saying. But, do, go on repeating the same thing that let Trump win in '16 against Hillary- ignoring the comments for critical segments of the democrat’s base saying “we don’t like them”.
sure! absolutely! for primaries go nuts, kick up a stink, let’s get a better candidate! totally agree!
but when it comes to the election and if trump is the nominee for republicans and biden is the nominee for the democrats then you get the hell out there, suck up your pride and you vote against the dictator… and the only effective way of voting against the dictator is a vote for the democrats - not because you like it, not because it’s fair - but because the USA has a first past the post system and that’s just the bullshit reality of the situation
and then, if you have the energy, you help at the local level to implement something like RCV
(should be noted, i’m australian so i have no power to do anything, and a lot of people will say i have no business making comments like this because im not american! however america has placed itself in a position of power on the global stage - the way yall vote effects everyone! its critical - GLOBALLY - that trump doesn’t win)
(should be noted, i’m australian so i have no power to do anything, and a lot of people will say i have no business making comments like this because im not american! however america has placed itself in a position of power on the global stage - the way yall vote effects everyone! its critical - GLOBALLY - that trump doesn’t win)
have you guys installed RCV? I’d love to hear specifics about implementation. (The biggest resistance is “people won’t know how to vote”… because they’re sooooo good at voting now.) trying to convince the Lame Duck governor to go for broke on everything.
yeah we have RCV for everything… everyone knows how to vote; it’s really not hard
https://www.aec.gov.au/media/2022/05-11.htm
this articles a little old and it’s changed a bit since then, but on a basic level it the same:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/14/how-does-australia-s-voting-system-work
the gist is that if you want to just vote for a party, you can: if you simply put a 1 in a box, that party will assign your preferences (when you vote “below the line” - numbering every box in the order that you’d like - you have to fill out 150 numbers, making sure you don’t make a mistake)
so your ballot paper has about 20 different parties[1] on it, ranging from the major parties (coalition/liberal/national and labour) to a few others (greens are becoming big, socialist alliance, etc), and then single issue parties (legalise cannabis australia, there was a high speed rail party at 1 point)… and it has a bunch of individual politicians below each party with their own boxes
if you decide that legalising cannabis is the issue you care about, you can just number their box and they’ll allocate your preferences - hopefully based on how likely they think a particular politician is to support legalising cannabis. you can also put multiple numbers above the line and a range of other things, but at its simplest it’s putting a 1 in a box and going home
some of this might be slightly incorrect because it can get very complex and i don’t really delve too deep into how the ballot actually works at its most complex level… but i think the great thing is that you can vote according to whatever complexity or detail you like and the system ensures your vote is allocated to who you’d most likely want
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Australia
the gist is that if you want to just vote for a party, you can: if you simply put a 1 in a box, that party will assign your preferences (when you vote “below the line” - numbering every box in the order that you’d like - you have to fill out 150 numbers, making sure you don’t make a mistake)
interesting. I… wonder how the system would resolve putting a ‘2’ in the box and then voting for somebody else as a 1, but otherwise party line. like the party-line vote is the failsafe, but I put my preferred 2 or 3 candidates in first.
thank you for your input!
you can only vote above (party preference) or below (all preferences) the line on our ballots, so that’s not a situation that can occur, however i imagine it’d be something the actual counting system could tolerate - heck you could probably even assign someone an arbitrary 51 and imo the system could just grab that person out of the party preferences, sequence the list, and then put them in at number 51 and that’s your preference list
otherwise, the party preferences are published in advance, so you can always print them off and tweak them, then vote below the line
Oh, and don’t think any country is gonna drop what they are doing to help us.
Pretty sure Russia will. It’s just that you and I won’t be part of the us they are helping.
Yes. It is just those two. It’s always just 2 every election. And you are the problem if you pretend to not understand that.
And you are the problem if you pretend to not understand that.
That’s a year out. We’re not at that point yet. which kind of makes YOU the problem. Biden is a deeply unpopular candidate and instead of facing that fact- and listening to the warnings being given, and at the very least addressing them- you blather on about how awful trump is.
But the whole point of primaries, which apparently i need to remind you, is to select the best candidate for a given party. you see how that works? this is a debate internal to the DNC. trump has nothing to do with this discussion, except as motivation to select the best candidate possible. Which, Biden cannot defeat trump. period. He’s now too deeply unpopular among large segments of the Dem’s base.
the core arguemnt of “this isn’t the year… next year, maybe” has been the rallying cry of moderates since I’ve been voting. You need to stop trotting that out along side the shitty candidates and start picking people who are actually… you know… popular? And let us not forget, Biden has been in government for longer than I’ve been alive. He’s a part of why things are the way they are today.
Which, Biden cannot defeat trump. period. He’s now too deeply unpopular among large segments of the Dem’s base.
Proof?
Parties almost never run primaries with an incumbent. It’s stupid as all hell to throw away a known quantity who already won.
“He’s unpopular”. There isn’t a more popular candidate. Harris has nothing to her name except VP and they’re not going to throw her away for a new VP. And primaries bring the circus: debates, new dirt dug up. You want to beat Trump? Tossing up more doubt isn’t going to do it.
Parties almost never run primaries with an incumbent. It’s stupid as all hell to throw away a known quantity who already won.
his current approval rating is something like 30%, across the board. only 61% of democrats say they approve, and that number is sinking lower. do you really call that “popular”? keep in mind the sheer number of individuals who, in modern politics do not actually have a party- many of whom still tend to be progressive anyhow.
incumbents who are so weak as to let people think it’s a good idea to primary them… usually don’t do so hot in the regular election. Because. you know. They’re weak. Look at Ford vs Reagan, Carter Vs Kenedy (where carter won the primary and lost to Reagan.). H.W. vs Buchanan should be pretty useful here… H.W. won the primary, lost to Clinton. there’s a pretty clear pattern- even if the causes are less clear- of incumbents who get primaried loosing the regular election.
which, it’s pretty stupid to run somebody whose known to be not particularly popular, too. Or. You know, Biden could do what he promised, step down after his first term. And then move to support and campaign for someone whose actually not smeared with the stink currently coming of Biden.
You did not address their main point, which is that there simply isn’t a candidate that has a better, or even comparable, chance of winning.
Approval ratings are also notoriously inaccurate, especially for dems.
Even Biden has admitted recently there is in fact “probably 50 democrats who can beat trump”
As for accuracy… it’s not that they’re necessarily inaccurate, it’s more a fundamentally flawed assumption on what the poll means… and who responded.
The 38% of democrats in that poll that are unhappy with Biden , are never going for trump. We know they’re probably not gen z and millennials (who aren’t home to answer calls, and aren’t.
While many- quite likely most will “fall in line” in November…. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a candidate not actually loathed by at least a 1/3 the base? Wouldn’t that be easier to win? Biden’s incumbency has more baggage than most
But but but the incumbent advantage!1!! We have to run this deeply unpopular octogenarian!
Let me guess, you think some far left candidate will have broader appeal than the centrist? Far too many on the fediverse seem to have difficulty understanding the realities of first-past-the-post.
They ignore the reality of their suddenly disliking Biden & the lack of time on fielding a viable candidate. They didn’t condemn Biden during the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis. They don’t know that Trump halted US funds to UNRWA & Biden reversed that. Skipped out on state Democratic conventions despite polling showing Democrat support for Palestine exceed Israel support & they could have tried to push for party platform changes. If they dislike Biden as much as they claim, then why did they not fund a PAC or challenger years ago?
Because we didn’t have a problem with him until he was giving weapons to Israel to commit genocide with
Nothing has ever changed with US-Israel military sales & cooperation. Biden has never championed that he was ever going to end or limit that. Again why did all the “concerned” voter not make an effort to charge the Democratic party platform or support a candidate or effort from the get go?
Quite frankly I question the seriousness of anyone who just became “concerned” now.
Do you not understand how certain recent events may change peoples views on Israel?
Feel free to change their view but be rational about it.
They still have enough time to rally around US House & Senate candidates to advocate for issues such as this. Field a PAC or some kind of effort for 2028 if this is their first foray into single issue voting. Learn about power of down ballot. Get involved with local/state political party perhaps consider joining another one if you are so opposed to the Democratic one.
These young voters live in different cities, work different jobs and have varying political beliefs. But among the things they have in common: They voted for Joe Biden in 2020 — and now say the president can’t count on their support in 2024.
“I genuinely could not live with myself if I voted for someone who’s made the decisions that Biden has,” said McKenzie, a 23-year-old working at Starbucks and as a union organizer in Madison, Wisconsin. “I didn’t even feel great about" voting for Biden back in 2020, he said.
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Ah, yes. That’ll surely get them out to vote. /s
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If they weren’t convinced by the Trump presidency, Jan 6, theft of classified materials, “grab em by the pussy”, the shady shit with Russia, Roe v Wade being torched, and the 2025 project, nothing will.
Yeah if they haven’t figured out what the consequences could be, someone telling them isn’t going to help. They’re already way too uninformed to have any real context or else their philosophy is one that is more concerned with the symbolism of an act than the real world outcome thereof.
I think it comes down to how one handles the Trolley Problem. Some folks feel that the most important thing is reducing the number killed even if it means effectively being a murderer by making the trolley kill one instead of letting it kill 10.
Others feel the act of doing nothing and permitting the death of 10 is morally superior to actively killing 1 (or, I guess that is what they believe?).
I am in the former camp and I cannot understand the latter camp at all. Maybe because I care less about whether I am a murderer (and I guess the 1 person) than I do about making sure 10 people aren’t killed.
There’s also the “perfect is the enemy of the good” problem that I’ve seen a lot of Progressives display.
They want a perfect, ideal candidate. They refuse to settle for anything less than perfection. The problem is that perfection isn’t attainable. If you name your “perfect candidate,” then someone will find a flaw with them. They then cease to be the perfect candidate anymore and must be ditched for the next “perfect one.” Meanwhile, the right just decides that their candidate is perfect regardless of any flaws (or perhaps because of what we’d call his flaws).
Progressives will often threaten to rage quit politics if they don’t get 100% of what they want right away. They don’t seem to realize that doing this gives power to the Republicans. So we take five steps forward, Progressives rage quit because we didn’t take twenty steps forward, Republicans take over, and we take ten steps backwards. Now, did rage quitting put us in a better position? Of course not. But the perfect is held up as the only allowed outcome and Good isn’t good enough.
It’s not “the perfect is the enemy of the good” for me anymore. It’s “good is no longer good enough to do anything meaningful.” It’s not anger, it’s despair.
I wonder what drives that kind of thinking? I am pretty sure I figured out at least by my second election if not first that the realistic choices are usually shitty and shittier. And I was politically a total idiot back then.
To be fair, one can argue that probably nobody really expects a “perfect” candidate. I imagine some are looking for a fairly good one, but find that the available options fall far short.
So it is probably more like “good is the enemy of the-sucky-but-not-criminal-fascist-traitor” lol.
Mind you I am a progressive but I’m also practical and see the long game, now that I’m middle-aged and finally getting a bit of a clue.
If we progressives want to pull the rank and file core DNC neoliberals left, we need a 20-50 year plan. We need to be working at the grassroots level to donate time and money to progressives at the local and state level, run for office ourselves even if it is just for a school board or city council post. We need to influence curriculums to tell more of the truth about unregulated capitalism, the benefits of socialized healthcare, organized labor, history. We need to discuss progressive ideas more in public discourse. We need to lobby for many things to get us out of the quagmire of regulatory capture, corruption, etc: oligopoly busting, campaign finance reform, etc.
And we need to focus on the elections of Senators and Representatives, because that’s where the power is at, really. The president isn’t going to get much done without Congress. And won’t get much done with them unless we have enough progressives instead of reagan-era conservatives in Democratic clothing (Manchin, Sinema, etc).
It took 50 years for the GOP to fuck everything up. It will probably take 50 to get it back in line.
That’s only as long as the GOP doesn’t get in power. If they do, they have told us they will increase the power of the executive branch which brings us closer to the autocratic model of governance that the original drafters of the Constitution were keenly interested in avoiding.
They will appoint partisan loyalists in key government positions which means brain drain and probably defacto repeal of various laws. Sort of like what happened with Ajit Pai in the FCC, the bullshit with USPS thanks to Louis DeJoy (remembering the decades of attacks on USPS by the GOP because if it ain’t privatized they cant get richer and oh it has to turn a profit despite being a fucking social service…), and the hobbling of the EPA under whoever that was.
I could go on but I’ve rambled enough.
I definitely agree about the long term plan. The Republicans excelled at this. I hate the goal, but can admire how much effort they put into things like overturning Roe vs Wade. During the 50 year span, they had many, many setbacks. They didn’t just throw in the towel, though. They changed their goals, being temporarily satisfied with small steps backward instead of running an entire backwards marathon. And as they did this, they got closer and closer to their goal until they hit it. (Of course, their goal has now shifted to include much worse things.)
Imagine if Progressives could harness this kind of planning for positive changes. As satisfying as it would be to elect a Progressive President with a Progressive Congress that would work together to make the courts Progressive as well, that’s not going to happen in 2024. Heck, it’s not likely to all happen in 2028 either.
We need to step back, assess where we are, where we want to be, and make a plan for how we get there. “Just only vote for Progressives” sounds good on paper until you realize that, in many areas, Progressives would be unelectable. What happens if the Progressive can’t be elected and the Progressive Congress doesn’t come to be? If the entire plan is “just only vote for Progressives,” then it will fall apart quickly.
If instead, the plan is “move the county one step to the left. And then another step. And then another step,” then we can make some real changes. Sure, they won’t come for years and it can be frustrating to wait, but this also means that change will come, it will be easier to recover from a misstep, and there won’t be as large of a backlash.
(On this last point, one of the things I’ve noticed is that society tends to have a momentum to it that’s hard to change. If you try to change society too quickly, a backlash can result that can roll back many of the changes. Slow steady changes can wind up taking root a lot more than quick sudden changes.)
Y’all’be been saying that or similar since at least ‘03.
You need new scare tactics. Or, maybe, stop ignoring over half the base. But details. Yes. Keep blaming us for everything…
And since 03 or earlier, conservatives in America have been consolidating their power to achieve what they have now. Supreme Court dominance enough to undue decades and decades of progress. But yes, pretend these people weren’t right all along. This time, you can safely vote third party , or stay home, probably nothing bad will happen.
But yes, pretend these people weren’t right all along. This time, you can safely vote third party , or stay home, probably nothing bad will happen.
Excuse me? Why don’t you say that again in a way that’s not, you know, doing EXACTLY what I just accused you of?
You do realize, of course that “These people who were right all along” are either people like me pointing out that Biden fucking sucks… or the ones that ALLOWED all that to happen- namely the milquetoast “moderates” that have allowed the overton window to consistently shift right while fearmongering that a progressive candidate is actually impossible. (because, you know, it’d really suck for their corpo masters if progressive gained any sort of headwind.)
When half the base embrace incompetence, obstruction, and fascism, it’s time to ignore them.
Who on the progressive side of the left wing is embracing these things? The republicans are not part of the DNC base, by definition, and bringing them into the mix is… a distraction meant to keep you from realizing that Biden is closer to fascist than I am. but do, go on hurling shit-takes.
Call me when you actually have something other than fucking fearmongering to say.
Saying that living under fascism is objectively worse than a moderate Democrat who’s almost a Republican is not “blaming you for everything”. My God, has our educational system really gone that far downhill so fast??
has our educational system really gone that far downhill so fast??
Cool it with the insults. You’re revealing your ignorance and lack of actual, persuasive arguments. you can stop repeating the “OR ELSE” mantra. had it from boomers and gen xer’s all my life. I tune it out.
I’m not trying to persuade you man. I’m telling you to put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a god damned baby. Your comments clearly show how you’re using your feelings instead of your brain. Grow up and help the rest of us prevent a disaster.
I’m not trying to persuade you man. I’m telling you to put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a god damned baby. Your comments clearly show how you’re using your feelings instead of your brain. Grow up and help the rest of us prevent a disaster.
You’re clearly trying to intimidate me with insults and fear. “OMG GOD ITS BIDEN OR TRUMP” is a false dichotomy. but go ahead keep ignoring the warnings. keep putting bad candidates on the balllot. keep doing the same goddamn thing that got Trump elected the first time around. it’s okay because… you can happily blame other people who are trying to do something about it.
you do realize that Biden is actively working to provide military support to a genocidial country? you do realize he’s loosing votes with every bullet he sends? but yet, I’m the one whose acting on emotion? fucking hell man, stop it with the “SHUT UP AND DO WHAT WE TELL YOU” already. It’s actually kinda fascist of you. (oops, I’m diluting that term, aren’t I?)
No, this is actually a dichotomy. First Past the Post mathematically trends towards a two candidate system as its stable state. This isn’t some psychological bullshit, it’s math. The way our system works you never vote for the thing you like; you vote against the thing you don’t. Doing anything else is literally handing the election to the side you don’t like. It’s called the Spoiler Effect and it happens basically everywhere in the US where FPtP is used.
The place you vote for who you want is in the primaries (or their equivalent in your state), not elections. If you’re not participating in those, you get no say in who gets run and bitching about it does nothing. Hell, even then you barely get any say since, as far as I’m aware, both the DNC and RNC actually select their candidate based on a vote of some inner circle bigwigs, not the actual results of any of the state-by-state pageant shows.
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Do whatever the fuck you want.
So what candidate has your favor at the moment?
Or are you just not going to vote?
You’re ignoring everything we are telling you, while doing the same thing over and over, and then telling us to fall in line to help you.
How about you help us?
Voting isn’t supposed to make you feel good. You’re not supposed to be satisfied with your decision. It’s going to suck and continue to suck until you die.
Kids these days…
I haven’t heard any of them say “I think I’ll get what I want under trump,” so I’m not scared about the youth vote. I’m scared about the successful voter fraud.
Turnout matters, though. Biden in 2020 won more votes than any presidential candidate in history, but the second place winner was Trump in 2020. There will be similar loyalty to Trump on the right in 2024, and if Biden can’t match that, he loses. So I’m not afraid of the youth vote either, but I am afraid of the lack of it.
Trump doesn’t need people to vote for him, he just needs enough that stay home.
Voter fraud is exceptionally rare. Instead, worry about disinformation, propaganda, voter suppression, and what the GOP does this time, if it loses the presidential election.
I really think people would be happier if we set reasonable expectations for elected officials. Biden says he’s gonna eliminate student loans? Yeah, no. Maybe, if we’re very lucky and the lobbyists are feeling lazy we’ll get $20,000 for the most in debt. The rest of you are on your own. (I don’t blame Biden, the illegitimate Supreme Court did it, but there’s nothing we can do about that.)
Stopping war? Nah, the US has been at war most of its history. Neither side is gonna stop it. Too much money to be made. But at least if we vote for Biden he’ll pretend to feel bad about it, which is nicer than being a dick.
We’re not getting universal health care. We’re not getting better education. If we elect Biden next year there will still be twelve million children who are food insecure. Capitalism will continue to exploit you, and make you miserable, and then make you feel bad for being miserable.
But at the very least the government will feel badly about all the things they’re doing/can’t do. And that’s about the best I’ve learned to hope for.
The Biden admin has forgiven 132bil in student loans so far. Not the 400bil the supreme court stopped, but way, way more than any other administration ever.
The key is that they have done it in small 5bil drips and drabs. This is a double edged sword in that the news has barely covered it, so there is no push to stop it. He can keep forgiving student debt, but only if no one notices and gets the corrupt courts involved.
Exactly my point: Lower your expectations.
It’s not going to happen overnight. It probably won’t happen at all, given the structure of our government.
But he’ll make nice noises while the world burns and we all go broke and that will be a bit more pleasant.
They know they dont have to fulfil any promises because liberals will keep electing them regardless what they do, or dont do. There are never any consequences to their action. Now that Fetterman has come out as full fledged right wing nut job, that D will still get him reelected.
the student loan situation he has managed to finagle is incredible compared to what was before. interest can increase original principle, payments based on income and if its not paid back in 20 years its forgiven. And health care wise the no surpise billing is huge. I mean no previous president did either of these things and honestly would not be surprised if things like this got rolled back if its not him. but whatever.
Has anyone tried lecturing them more? Kids loving hearing about how much inflation and war there was 50 years ago.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
“I genuinely could not live with myself if I voted for someone who’s made the decisions that Biden has,” said McKenzie, a 23-year-old working at Starbucks and as a union organizer in Madison, Wisconsin.
“It’s so complicated, because it almost feels like if I were to give my vote for Biden, I will be showing the Democratic Party that what they are putting out is enough, which is the bare minimum in my opinion,” said Camarena, a 24-year-old living outside the Bay Area.
Voters cited a number of policy areas that disappointed them, including insufficient moves to address climate change and Biden’s inability to fully cancel student loan debt or codify Roe v. Wade, as the president deals with a closely divided Congress.
While Biden and Democrats pushed to codify the protections of Roe at the federal level, congressional realities made legislative efforts impossible.
Biden wasn’t Kapp’s first choice as a candidate in the last election, and this year he plans to vote third party if the contest is a Biden-Trump rematch.
“I think that there is a chance” of Biden winning back her support, she said, adding that she expects the president to call for a cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war.
The original article contains 1,762 words, the summary contains 202 words. Saved 89%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
NBCnews: Giddyap horsies! Yhah! Drive those clicks, horsies! Hyup!
Corporate News Refuses To Not Suck
FUD
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These kinds of articles are basically just “why specific groups you don’t like are the reason your life is going to shit”. Getting bent out of shape because a shocking minority of voters isn’t really worth it.
your assessment hasn’t been true since 2019. . They even have a handy chart:
meh. im closer to the sweet peace of death than they are.
Well, I hope they at least vote down ticket.
I’m majorly blaming these people when Trump wins.
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