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That discomfort, I believe, is the point. Flipping the labeling game on its head is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable with the label. That can be used later for empathy.
And labeling it a persecution fetish is projecting. And saying that the mainstream doesn’t accept it so we shouldn’t either is provocative in a post that says “don’t let mainstream lead you by the nose”.
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supposed to make you feel uncomfortable with the label. That can be used later for empathy.
That sounds manipulative and dishonest. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding. Might you explain how that works, from either an individual or societal perspective?
I agree we desperately need more awareness and empathy, but I don’t see how adding more synonyms that feel exclusionary helps.
Yeah, this is the same approach that labelling majority as CIS-gender is. Sure, smart and empathetic people realize and recognize what it’s trying to highlight, but others will find it offensive and irritating before, if at all, coming to a conclusion.
The problem with this psychological approach is that it’s projecting to bring down others / the out group, instead of attempting to elevate the disadvantaged straight. It creates a faux us vs them tribalism where there was none before.
Does ‘straight’ (or heterosexual) fall in the same category?
It may have before. I wouldn’t know, because when those terms came to be used were before my time.
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“Neurotypical” is the more appropriate word anyway
not really. Allistic is the opposite to autistic while NT is the opposite to ND. As Neurodiversity covers (much) more than just autism, allistic is more precise when the topic is specifically autism.
Yeah I agree with that. I will, however, point out that it means basically the same thing as the word normal. Context does matter as much as being understood as meaning non-autistic.
The whole of human experience is a spectrum, anyhow. Neurotypical just means this small peak of the bell curve society deems ‘normal’, but even then, lots of people in that group wouldn’t be considered ‘normal’ if they were honest with themselves.
Those terms do help people outside that definition, though, because they help identify and contextualise the friction they feel in society, and defining is a crucial first step towards understanding, acceptance, and learning how to overcome obstacles.
These words aren’t really for the benefit of neurotypical people, so they can seem unnecessary. They’re *often not, though.
(I’d never heard the word in the OP, and I agree it’s superfluous. We already have several words for it.)
e: added a word
Not to mention it’s pretty similar to autistic. Infact I first read it as autistic and got pretty confused reading the post.
I feel like it can be over used, but generally I like it, it fills a lexical niche for me. I could use non autistic, but that feels clunky. Sometimes it’s useful to talk about non autistic people’s experiences in relation to autistic people, and sometimes I want to talk about autistic experiences in relation to allistic experiences, so I may prefer a term like allistic.
A thing that feels similar to me is the word allosexual, which means not asexual. I guess I would identify as being on the ace spectrum, but not ace (I’m demisexual), so allosexual is often a useful word
Neurotypical is the word most people use instead of non-autistic.
Which is also dumb, assuming there is a “typical” brain.
Although true, neurotypical more means close to average. Don’t think of typical as a single thing, but more an average of collective experiences.
Confirmed, neurotypical people are totally mental too.
How is “non-autistic” not an outgroup but “allistic” is?
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allistic
the what now
Non autistic people.
The term you’re looking for is “Neurotypical”
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Basically no one knows the term allistic.
Yet I’m supposed to keep up with “yeet” and “sneed” and whatever the fuck memers have scooped out of their cranial mush-puddles this month?
Hey, dude, scrub, cool, hanging out, psyched, what’s up, puke, and scoop were all once just slang words. Yet here we are, and they are pretty commonly used today.
Sorry but a lot slang becomes general speech, so there’s no reason to resist it.
But where does it come from? Regardless, sounds funny so I’m all for it.
Auto/allo come from the ancient Greek words for self/other. It’s one of those pairs like cis/trans, hypo/hyper, in/ex, etc.
I wonder if it’s alright to call myself or others “hella allistic”.
tfw you have alltism
I’m thinking of all these greentexts that talk about how OP has autism and imagining their alternative scenario where they have altism.
of course, it’s a spectrum
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This kind of talk is counterproductive.
Humans are social creatures. There has almost always been some sort of social norm across all of history. Likewise, there has almost been judgement of people who break social norms.
People with Autism have, among other things, trouble following those social norms. Ultimately a lot of the things we do could be considered offensive. The important part is to increase awareness that Autism is a disability and to ask for tolerance.
Meanwhile a lot of ways that autistic people are sensitive in are pretty alien and jarring. There’s a lack of emotional regulation that often leads to disproportionate outbursts. There are sensory issues that can lead to relatively benign things causing said outbursts. There are a ton of things that are simply more disruptive than a neurotypical person getting miffed that someone doesn’t make eye contact.
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It seemed like that commenter was saying “ask for tolerance for disproportionate outbursts.” It seems like you’re saying others accommodating your meltdowns is a human right. Is that what you’re saying?
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Neurotypicals don’t self isolate in prosperous communities they overwhelming interact with people just only other rich people. The rich as a general rule if thumb go to extremes to avoid interacting with people of a lower socioeconomic status why do you think first class and private planes are a thing?
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If you’ve really got it, you never ever flaunt it. That’s how you lose it
Yes we do. I’m doing it, many coworkers are doing it. It’s great.
The important part is to increase awareness that Autism is a disability and to ask for
toleranceunderstanding and accommodation.I try to help.
If we’re using the language of disability, ‘understanding and accommodation’ seems to afford its subjects a degree of dignity. We tend not to ask for ‘tolerance’ on behalf of the disabled, after all.
That’s fair.
Considering a shit ton of people took the pandemic as an excuse to avoid people including me is not actually that unusual. We only socialize for survival.
Meh, we have the dance club crowd and the sports fan crowd. I’m part of neither (and sports fans share too many similarities to fanatic religious militants for my tastes) but I understand them.
Introverts are underrepresented in society, but I think this is due to extroverts dominating politics and industrial upper management so polities tend to favor extroverted behaviors.
Also while extroverts enjoy social behavior, they do not enjoy toxic social interaction, as is typical in the workplace. No one wants to be micromanaged and bullied and humiliated by their bosses. I think this figures largely in the telecommuting conflict going on right now.
I think it’s fine to acknowledge the unfortunate truth that autistic people have to live in a society designed around the needs of people who are unlike them in important ways. Saying so shouldn’t diminish their responsibility to try to function in society as best they can despite this challenge.
To an extent, it’s a matter of perspective. We can easily conceive of a society where the things that “normal” people do are considered alien and jarring. If they had to constantly suppress their fundamental nature the way autistic people do, they might not seem so natural and healthy.
Well put. Ultimately this debate comes down to a desire to cover the world in leather rather then wear shoes.
Increased acceptance of autistic people almost universally a good thing (with very specific and few exceptions). The trouble is that the entire rest of the world can’t be psychologists who happen to be experts in understanding every condition.
I agree that people should educate themselves where possible. As much right as autistic adults have to be themselves, other people have the right to form opinions with regard to adherence to social norms.
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lifeinautismworld
“Autistic people are too sensitive.”
Meanwhile, here’s a list of things that offend allistic people.
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not making eye contact
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wanting to be left alone
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not wanting to take part in a conversation
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using the wrong tone
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showing the wrong amount of excitement
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pointing instead of using words
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not wanting to be touched
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not wanting to eat certain foods
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wearing earplugs around other people
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stimming in a way that does not affect anyone else
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not following traditions
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questioning their authority
Good human
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I can’t be the only one tired of the whole, “neurodivergent” crap.
I have ADHD, it’s a disability. I’m not **special**, I’m just fucking broken. Sure, it’s a more depressing take, but it’s more realistic.
Personally I find this form of thinking far more dangerous: I come from a country in which being “mentally disabled” would literally mean me being unable to function in polite society, and being a “retard” is something pretty common, even with adults. The fact I was undiagnosed autistic until I left saved me. Sure you don’t function like everyone else, and yeah, it’s hard - trust me -, but to say you’re broken is basically undermining everyone else that has the same condition as you.
anyone who is willing to seek help has to pay the consequences
I can see how that can be true in your circumstances. But, in a society where resources are available to you, the social model often leads people to turn down medications and accommodations, because the need and use of them seems unfair. (General “you” use ahead) And that only makes your life worse, given that you don’t live in that ideal society you built in your head.
First off those people don’t actually understand the social model of disability. The whole point is society makes it harder to get along because of disability or difference and the lack of acceptance and accomodation. If that same society offers aid you should generally take it. At least that’s my understanding.
You are also starting with the assumption that there is actually help for adults with disabilities like autism and ADHD. The truth is there isn’t that help available in many societies. Calling yourself “broken” isn’t going to change that fact.
Neurodivergent is a middle ground. Our wiring is abnormal in some (or many) ways.
We are broken in the same way a tank is a really shitty car. If all you do is drive the roads, it will seem that way. However, it can go places that a car simply can’t. Critically, this doesn’t make it any less shitty on the roads. Nore let you suddenly become a car. You’re a tank, and stuck as one.
This is different to being broken however. We are forced to adapt to our unusual brain wiring. Some people unfortunately can’t. Others can mask, but find it exhausting.
I’m personally reasonably lucky. I have ADHD and autism. My life was pretty shitty till I learnt not to follow the expectations of others. I now have a family, an interesting job, and hobbies I enjoy. My life is still far from perfect, but it’s not broken, it just felt that way.
Hey. Pretty sure I have undiagnosed ADHD (literally sitting in waiting room to talk to a therapist as I write this), and I feel like there’s a bit more than just being broken. We’re only “broken” because we don’t conform to the currently agreed upon norms. The world isn’t designed for us. And the quicker we can realize that and make personal and societal adaptations to make these “breaks” more standard, well, we’ll all be better off.
Hello, random Lemmitor! Have you downvoted the comment from Ookami38 because you feel it isn’t true? You know nothing about the life experience of the user who wrote it, so you’re using your limited, finite knowledge to invalidate someone else’s perspective. Before you jump into concluding that people who use the term neurodivergency to refer to themselves to cope, have you stopped to consider if your irrational rejection of the possibility that a neurodivergent person feeling fine about their condition or who they are is not your own mechanism to cope?
I… Why am I called out in that post? Like legit confused, I’ve been disconnected since I posted it so was I like, massively downvoted or something? Regardless yeah, I agree with what youre saying, for the most part.
Dude, most of the comments are trying to be supportive of this guy. I’m pretty sure we’ve all felt broken when we were diagnosed. I thought I was unlovable and would never have friendships or a partner, and eight years later I just celebrated my five year anniversary. Shit gets better, but not if you stay on the cycle of thinking you’re just broken and it will always stay like that. Whether you want to believe that or not, that’s your prerogative.
I was complaining about the downvotes that Ookami38’s comment received. Perhaps you misunderstood me?
Sorry, the comment said “have you down voted the comment above” and I thought you were referring to him being non understanding of the original root commentor. My bad.
No worries. I guess it wasn’t clear enough, so I edited my comment. Have a good day.
To be fair I was also confused, but I didn’t realize my post had apparently gotten downvoted at the start. All good.
Ah cool, this post answers my question above lol. Thanks for the support.
I would like to clarify, that despite feeling broken, I do see the hope in medication, knowledge and understanding, and coping mechanisms. Not to mention a loving and supporting wife, who also has her own issues… but we work out to about 1.5 fully functioning adults together, so that’s nice.
Viewing ADHD and other disorders purely by the social model, at least as I hear many talk about it, completely disregards any need for medication and accommodation, and just puts the emphasis on society to change. And I think that’s just wrong, like, I understand the idea of the social model, but people take it too far. Use it as an aspirational guide to a better society, don’t dismiss the aides that help people function in today’s society because you feel they shouldnt be needed in the first place.
My issue is how some people put so much emphasis on societal changes and ideas like “I’m not broken, society is”. Then they just live without any personal adaptations (medications, coping mechanisms, etc) bc “I’m not broken”. Worse, some look down at those who do take medications and try to adapt to the realities of our current society.
You can take some personal responsibility while also acknowledging that at least the majority of the reason this is even an issue is due to external things, i.e. societal expectations.
How’d the appointment go?
Went well, mostly intake stuff. Got another in 2 weeks .
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Just because something is a disability doesn’t mean you can’t call it neurodivergent. It’s just a broader term that means that you’re different.
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ADHD isn’t a disability for everyone. Plenty of people function fine with it.
Just to be clear, something is called a disorder when it affects your ability to do everyday things.
If you function fine, it’s literally not ADHD. “Disorder starts at impairment”
Disorder ~= disability, maybe “function” wasn’t the right word on it’s own. Function enough that it’s not a disability, but still a disorder.
You give too much credit to psychiatric ideas. Someone can be different from the norm in ways that constitute neurodivergence and be oppressed because of them without being disabled necessarily. Lots of people are only considered disabled because society wasn’t designed for them.
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This. It’s not a pity party, but it is a justification for medication, and for giving a little bit of understanding.
Same with me, but I don’t have ADHD but depression. I know I’m not normal and it’s not okay to be like me, guess what, telling me that in fact is ok to be a mental fucking mess doesn’t make it better.
I really relate to your comment, and one of the most rage inducing experiences I’ve ever had was someone lecturing me on how I shouldn’t call myself disabled, and then they badly explained the social model of disability to me.
However, I also find neurodivergent a useful term because I think that what we understand as disability is limited by our current world view. An example that feels analogous to me is how colonialist empires dismissed the art, culture and knowledge of indigenous peoples because they projected their preconceived values onto them.
I think that there’s a lot we don’t understand about autism, and how heavily normative society is holds us back. There are things that I am great at that feel inextricably linked to my autism. That doesn’t negate all the difficulties I also experience, but the word “neurodivergent” and the conversations that have developed around it feel it carves out space where I can lean into my autistic traits in situations where they’re strengths without having to be “super-autistic”; but also I can struggle in ways that neurotypical people can’t fathom, and it isn’t viewed as “negating” my strengths.
A large part of this is because the first chunk of my adult life, I broke myself by trying to act overly neurotypical, and like many autistics, I found that masking to this degree was unsustainable. Now, I’m much closer to a balance where I can pick my battles and not force myself to be something I’m not - like having tinted glasses for the office instead of expecting myself to somehow cope with my light hypersensitivity. In many ways, it feels like a different mode of being altogether - “wellness” for me looks different to “wellness” to a neurotypical, and I’d wager that “wellness” for you and other people in this thread would look closer to my version than the neurotypical version.
That being said, I agree that the way that people talk about stuff like ADHD and autism feels icky as hell. Personally, I find it more depressing to pretend that I’m not disabled, because actually, ignorance isn’t bliss when I can’t run from my reality. Sometimes things just suck, and they’re hard, and pretending otherwise makes it harder to cope with because it’s implicitly saying “I’m lying to myself because the truth is untenable”.
Thanks, yeah, you did a great job of putting it more eloquently than I had. 100% agree.
🤷 It’s about the social model of disability. It’s certainly incomplete, but it’s not wrong.
I’m just fucking broken.
that is literally every human on this planet. just because someone doesn’t have a mental divergence from perceived norm doesn’t mean they aren’t broken.
I disagree, we’re all different, but “disorder starts at impairment” and impairments come in various degrees.
To think of it this way, seems to say that “we all struggle” and the very next thought for many would be “why do you need and get medication/accommodation?” Or maybe the inverse “why don’t I get…?”
I guess there’s an argument to be had there, especially with the second form of the question.
A bit of an asshole, medication Bit boring, medication Don’t run fast, prosthetic Kinda ugly, surgery Short, surgery
just because someone doesn’t have a mental divergence from perceived norm doesn’t mean they aren’t broken.
If I’m making eye contact with you, I have no idea what you’re saying.
… Um.
Well. This post has been eye opening and maybe a little disturbing.
Anyway I work in sales and eye contact is a must. I find it really hard to pay any attention to what people are saying when I’m looking at them but I’ve practiced enough that there’s, like, a subroutine in my brain that that picks out the relevant information in a conversation while I consciously am not really engaged in a meaningful way. I’ll ask the right questions and it seems like I’m paying attention but I’m really just running on auto pilot.
I’ll finish a video conference or in person meeting thanking God for transcription software because I can’t recall a fucking thing they talked about.
I’ve realized in life that nobody cares about what’s actuallly happening. They are about what looks like it’s happening. I don’t understand it and I never will but everyone wants you to lie to them, constantly. So just give the people what they need.
Once I realized this life got a lot smoother.
Mind you, I hate talking to lawyers, consultants and salespeople who do that (and they’re plenty) and I’m developing aversion to meeting new ones because of it. If you ever suspect your client is autistic, consider the possibility of not actually caring about eye contact, because they’ll probably prefer that.
Oh I’ve practiced so much, I can focus now. I have to meet a lot of “strangers” every day for my job.
Also, I got a book called “how to win friends and influence people”. I’ve been practicing all the techniques the book teaches on people and it absolutely works. I haven’t read a book since high school. It’s very well written!
Edit: the book specifically talks about sales a lot. That book is especially useful for sales.
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I check too many boxes here
That’s because most of those are super normal things that almost nobody cares about.
Same…
Evidently, this is a divisive and emotional topic. Still, we’re happy that we are talking about it because it’s certainly important to us in the community. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be so heated about it. At the same time, we’d like to keep the discussion respectful. It’s completely fine to express your opinions as long as they aren’t explicitly violating any of the rules, especially promoting hate. It’s respectful and effective to disagree with someone over a passionate topic without calling them offensive names. There is no need to personally attack anyone or a group, and we do not want to maintain a space that is used for creating hateful division.
Remember, we’re here to discuss all matters related to autism, have a place where we can freely be autistic without having to mask, and ultimately create a community. It’s understandable to get heated over topics, but try to remember that you’re responding to another person that may feel emotional about the matter as well.
In other words, please practice human decency.
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I’m offended that you think I don’t question authority.
I take the reason you say this is cause your not on the spectrum?
Most things neurodivergent are actually stuff thats normal and common. Like needing some alone time, but its the degree of intensity, persevering need for those things that make it fit outside the norm.
A fun fact, we have a lot of ties to the roots of the lgbt community. Something about not letting norms and tradition decide how you should think and act. To be different often isn’t a choice and the right for us to exist differently is a matter of survival.
I’ve been trying that maintain eye contact thing, how to they do that? Doesn’t’t the constant screaming in their heads hurt them?
You’ve probably heard this already but, in case you haven’t, try watching their eyebrows or right above them instead. It’s a lot less awkward for some people for reasons I don’t completely understand.
Remember to look away for a moment every ten seconds or so unless you’re trying to seduce or intimidate them! It becomes a routine after awhile. Also, humans are really weird.
I do 5 on, 2 off for eye contact timing. It seems to work pretty well in terms of passing as nt and focusing on the task of timing it reduces the discomfort of eye contact in the first place for me
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Nah, it’s significantly harder to hear someone f2f if their face isn’t pointed towards yours. It’s also hard to keep track of where they are if they’re behind you, which is why people usually have the instinct to turn around whenever a sound source pans left to right behind them or gets closer. Evolutionary advantage
Omg, never heard that before, thank you.
As an allistic person, I don’t get any screams in my head when I make eye contact and may not understand what you’re referring to. Intense awkwardness?
Prolomged eye contacts may make some allistic people feel awkward, but generally it’s a positive experience of nonverbal communication.
Are you saying making eye contact while talking makes you feel good?
From another autistic person, it really varies from person to person. I despise staring intensely at strangers, but when it comes to my partner, I adore it. It probably has to do more with the level of trust than inherently not being able to look at someone in the eyes, but it might just be a me thing.
Yes, for as long as it’s not an angry or otherwise negative look.
That is wild! I’m eye contact neutral - it doesn’t affect me at all, save with my partner where it IS enjoyable, so I had to learn not to stare people down. I never imagined people enjoyed it with other people! Thanks for blowing my mind.
I think maybe they don’t have the screaming <.< NTs are weird.
Why can’t we just be ourselves, without NTs imposing judgement on us? Sometimes I feel like I’m expected to act NT, when I feel like it shouldn’t be a big deal. It’s very frustrating for me. So what if I don’t know how to add to a conversation, or if I avoid eye contact, or if I don’t like people trying to make eye contact with me for too long? Can’t I just share that I’m autistic, and be given my own autonomy? I really don’t like when NT standards are imposed on me. It makes me angry.
99% nobody is judging you.
If the term “allistic” offends you: grow up, it’s a new word. Is learning a new word scary? Cis isn’t offensive. Allistic isn’t offensive. If you become insecure because a previously unnamed characteristic or condition or yours suddenly receives a name that doesn’t have implicit negative connotations, you should go work on whatever problem you have.
Exactly like the word ‘cis’ and transphobes, people that think ‘allistic’ is offensive probably use autistic as a slur.
Holy shit this thread is cruel. I scrolled for way too long and started thinking I was pages deep into some general-interest place on Reddit. Nope, it’s c/Autism. Kinda the last place I’d expect to be okay with piles of hateful NTs coming in to point and laugh and talk trash at us.
Also, very agree regarding the terminology-whining. Kinda hard to believe every term non-minority sorts find out about gets screamed about, claiming it’s a slur. Equality feeling like oppression, I guess. Only “those people” get words; everyone else is just “normal.” Grr.
If the term “allistic” offends you: grow up, it’s a new word. Is learning a new word scary?
I have no particular opinion on the term “allistic,” but what happened to the maxime that each group should get the final say on the terminology applied to that specific group?
Now we’re saying to a specific group “hey, from now on we’ll call you all this new term and you all can just shut up and deal with it, because you don’t get a say?”
Seems like contradicting messages.
Allistics wouldn’t have come up with a term to categorize themselves, because they already see themselves as “the normal” that doesn’t need to be categorized. Save that, I’m not against them choosing a different word - but it would still be chosen by one or a few of them for an unchoosing vast majority.
J dont habe anything against the termb and ive never Seen anyone bitch about it to me it seems like you are just looking for an argument
Look at this thread then
Litterally idied and seither my ban list Blocks all the hatte posting vor there just isn’t any
ah yes because my teenage neighbor is going to be very angry at me if I don’t follow traditions
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To be honest, I think autistic people are normal and the neurotypicals have something wrong with them.
How do they subconsciously know all of these cultural and social norms that don’t need to be said? That’s some Children of the Corn shit if you ask me
It’s more that they expect their social needs to be recognzed and acknowledged without cues. We see it most among elites and positions of authority, such as US Senators and Representatives behaving like immature children, in contrast to conduct suitable for their office.
When MTG tweets racist dog whistles for likes, or Lindey Graham has a meltdown with a hot camera, it shows us they take their positions for granted. It shows they expect to be handled and accommodated and they don’t take their offices seriously.
Whereas we neurodivergents develop personal symptom management techniques (like stimming) in order to function and be of service to the community around us. This is how we cope so that we can do things and not freak others out.
