• an_onanist@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    And if it turns out that the accusation Hamas was using the basement as a command post is true, is that the new bottom?

      • devz0r@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        And fun fact: bombing/attacking a hospital is not a war crime per the Geneva Conventions Article 52, if it is being used as a military objective.

        • 11181514@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Oh ok phew. I didn’t know it wasn’t a war crime per the Geneva convention article 52. Keep bombing those infants, baby! Woohoo!

        • Makfreeman@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Might be a fun fact but it is not correct. Article 52 of the fourth convention is not related to hospitals. Article 52 of the 1st additional protocol is related to hospitals and it does not mean what you are saying it does. Geneva conventions do not define war crimes, that definition is given in the ICC Rome statutes.

          • devz0r@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Fair enough. The ICC Rome Statute specifically refers to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949. But per the ICC Rome statute on war crimes, Article 8, Section 2, Subsection (b), Clause (ix), the following is a war crime: “Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected,provided they are not military objectives;”

              • Threeme2189@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                What about finding tunnels, weapons, bombs and having terrorists hiding and firing from within the hospital compound? Is that enough or does Hamas need to put up a sign reading “military objective” at the entrance?

                • Sparlock@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  I mean they DID find like 9 guns and a calendar we were told was a hostage watching schedule… so yea totally needs to be nuked just to be sure. /s

                  • Threeme2189@sh.itjust.works
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                    1 year ago

                    They’ve found a large amount of ammunition, IED and mortar shells in bedrooms, schools, mosques, hospitals, etc. Let’s just turn the other cheek and let them use them to kill Israel’s general population. No need for an /s

            • Still the collateral damage needs to be proportional and adequate measures need to be taken to minimise civillian casualties.

              So at least they would need to be able to evacuate. But Israel intentionally destroyed ambulances, cut water, electricity, fuel and communications, so it is impossible to evacuate the hospital. Israel did everything to make sure the civillian casualties will be high and that is nothing but a war crime and heinous murder.

        • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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          1 year ago

          I mean, that makes a certain degree of sense, because if using protected places as a place to put one’s military operations doesn’t remove that protection, then it would become a common strategy to intentionally use vulnerable civilians as shields in that manner, and since no military is realistically going to just let their opponent attack them without a response when capable of delivering one, such a scenario would just lead to the whole idea of places like hospitals being protected being abandoned.

          • Copatus@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Except in theory, you would want your hospitals protected regardless, even if it wasn’t a war crime to hide the military there. Because that’s where your population is vulnerable and being healed.

            Using your own population as shields is just next level. Those are the people you are supposedly fighting to protect in the first place.

            • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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              1 year ago

              I don’t mean protected in a military sense, I mean protected in a legal sense, ie, assuming your opponent is bound by international law, having them forbidden from attacking those places. In a more normal conflict, it’s in the best interests of both governments to follow this sort of rule, since the military value of a hospital is (supposed to be) kept low, and each side knows that attacking medical facilities might lead to the other side doing the same in retaliation. However, this isn’t really a normal conflict, and Hamas does not act like a state (since it isn’t really, it’s a terrorist group taking on some of the roles of a state).

            • AggressivelyPassive@feddit.de
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              1 year ago

              Both are trash but one has been killing for decades…

              Hm, either that is not really your point or you are remarkably bad at putting it into words.

              • umbrella@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                I mean terrorism and putting innocents at risk is bad. But this comes because of almost a century of oppression and death so it is expected at this point. You defend yourself whichever way you can I guess. I am from a colony, so I know shit can get desperate.

                You be the judge if I’m bad with words (spoiler: I am anyway) or if I just have a bad take.

    • yukichigai@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      I mean what’s worse: using a human shield, or deciding “nah fuck them kids shoot through them anyway.”

      • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own? Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?

        • rosymind@leminal.space
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          1 year ago

          Yeah, this is the problem I’m having with people picking sides. It’s a giant crap-pile of the worst of humanity. People act like there’s a good side. Nah, everything’s a mess of generational hatred and I hate it all.

          There needs to be a cease-fire. Hamas needs to release all hostages and then be permanently removed from power in Gaza, and Israel needs to help the Palestinians rebuild what has been destroyed, burry their dead with dignity and respect, and heavily compensate the families of those who have died.

          The whole thing is out of control

            • rosymind@leminal.space
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              1 year ago

              That may be so, but Israel clearly has the upper hand right now. It’s within their power to put the breaks on. I understand the depth of their rage after what Hamas did, but they shouldn’t soothe their sorrow with the blood of innocents

          • Zorque@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Interesting that you mentioned the removal of Hamas from power but not the current Isreali government.

            • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              If polling is accurate, they will be voted out soon enough. To remove Hamas one needs the ammo box, as they have removed the ballot box as an option.

            • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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              1 year ago

              The government of Israel is at least somewhat democratic. That makes removing it a bit more thorny than removing an organization like Hamas, because one either has to effectively just force an election there, which carries the risk that the same people (or people with the same ideology, if you forbid the specific people currently in power) might just win it and keep things the same, or replace the entire system with something that isn’t democratic, which is generally viewed as a bad thing in itself. It’s also move salvageable though for the same reason: there’s little chance that someone wanting peace and resolution will somehow take over Hamas, it would be antithetical to what their organization even is, but the policies of a government like Isreal’s at least have the potential to dramatically shift if people wanting those things take hold of it.

            • rosymind@leminal.space
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              1 year ago

              Sure that can change, too. I don’t live there, so it didn’t come to mind. My desires mean nothing to anyone by me- but I want the violence to stop.

              I can’t imagine that the Israeli people so close to the border are just totally fine with what happened to the civilians and likely would want their government overhauled- but again, I don’t live there. I only know what the media as told me, and I acknowledge that all that could even be a lie.

              It’s messy

              • Zorque@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Indeed it is messy. But “removing” Hamas from power is about as easy as “removing” Bibi and his cabal from power. They feed off each other, and blame each other just enough to sway their populace into letting them stay in power.

                The problem isn’t as easily fixed as “just take Hamas… and put it over there”.

                • kbotc@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Bibi can be removed via an election. There literally does not exist a method of removing Hamas other than violence, either from the people of Gaza or an external force.

            • rosymind@leminal.space
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              1 year ago

              For sure. It’s hard to know what’s true and what isn’t. All we know is what the media tells us. Hopefully we’ll know at some point

        • yukichigai@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          False dilemma. There are ways to react that don’t involve shooting children.

          Even if there weren’t, I wouldn’t say “yeah shoot some children.”

          • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            You’re misrepresenting my position. It’s, “yeah definitely shoot the terrorist, try to avoid shooting their hostages if you can.”

            • yukichigai@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              My dude, you’re arguing that a certain amount of shooting children is okay. If you can’t see how this is a problem I don’t know what else to say.

              • Ethanice
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                1 year ago

                As are you? If they don’t take out the military targets, kids die. It’s essentially lose lose for the civilans, but one course of action leads to bot prolonging child murder.

        • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          There’s an infinite spectrum between “not shooting children” and “letting the other guy shoot yours”

          Also, this “oh we’re so much better and civilized” act really falls short when it has to be explained to you why shooting children is still bad even when you do it.

        • running_ragged@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          But they’re not. Unless you’re claiming all Palestinian kids are Hamas, and then if you are, or if your ready to punish an entire people for the actions of an extremist group, you’re committing war crimes and are well on your way to Genocide.

          So maybe a more tactical approach would be better for everyone.

        • 257m@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Hamas barely has any power against Israel and two wrongs don’t make a right. Killing children is off limits period. Dosen’t matter who is hiding behind them. Also the children are not Hamas’s kids. If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.

          • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Hamas barely has any power against Israel

            Indeed. It would be nice if they would acknowledge the reality of their situation. Maybe they would release the hostages, lay down arms, and sue for peace, if they acknowledged as you do that they don’t have any hope against winning against Israel with violence.

            the children are not Hamas’s kids.

            The children that they hide behind are Palestinian children. Hamas is the government of Gaza and every citizen there is under their jurisdiction and control until they are deposed; i.e., “theirs.”

            two wrongs don’t make a right

            War is always ethically shitty, but I see no other option for Israel at this point. If they don’t meet violence with violence and achieve meaningful objectives to keep themselves safe in response to Hamas’ mass slaughter, it’s just begging for more of the same in the future. War is what happens when deterrence fails, perhaps this will serve as an example to those who would consider attacking Israel next time of the consequences.

            If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.

            Israel’s intention is not to shoot children being used as shields. It is to neutralize the one shooting from behind them, even if there’s significant risk of hitting a human shield. This devalues the strategy and discourages such people from using human shields in the future. It’s the same reason one does not negotiate for hostages, it encourages future hostage taking. You let this be a viable strategy that deters reprisal, expect more of it.

            • 257m@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              I don’t want to flame but I am just going to put this here: A person was faced with the choice to kill a innocent child or not do anything. They chose to kill a innocent child. Doesn’t matter who is behind them you still shot to kill the child. They deserve to burn.

          • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Hamas barely has any power against Israel

            I mean this is demonstrably untrue considering the attack where they killed and kidnapped hundreds of innocents.

            That doesn’t make Israel’s response even remotely justifiable of course. But Hamas is not some plucky rebel group throwing pebbles. They’re dangerous and need to be removed from power in a method that doesn’t kill babies.

        • Makfreeman@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Wouldn’t proportionality be a thing here? Reprisals would be acceptable if they did not result in a disproportionate loss of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems like Palestinian children’s lives are much cheaper than Israeli lives. I hate saying it because I think all children deserve protection regardless of the actions of the people in power, be it hamas or idf.

          • Also the comparision isnt Palestinian children vs Israeli children. It is Palestinian children vs. grown armed men and women aka Soldiers.

            Israel could have worked with insurgencies to target Hamas specifically, without having to bomb everything to rubble. That would have risked more soldiers lives though.

            So they are weighting their soldiers lifes at a rate of about 200 Palestinains of which 80 are children.

            For comparision. In WW2 about 4 Ally soldiers died for one civillian death in the Axis and about 6 Ally civillians, mostly Chinese, Polish, Ukranian and Russian, died for every Axis soldier. So the war of total annhilation, with death squads eradicating entire villages and concentration camps for mass murder still had a much lower rate of civillian to military deaths.

        • bjornsno@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Yes? What kind of question is that? If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?

          • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?

            Yes

            Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own. I doubt that will be much of a consolation for your countrymen that you’re willing to sacrifice to violence. Expect more human shields in the future now that you’ve proven the tactic so effective.

            What kind of question is that?

            A moral dilemma.

            If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?

            If you answered no to that I’d say you’re honestly assessing the grim realities of war, where the goal is to pacify the enemy without sacrificing your own people, even if that may result in collateral damage.

            • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own.

              the question wasn’t about your citizens, it was about your kids. which makes his answer even more laughable.

              • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably. All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas’ human shields will fit into multiple categories.

                • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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                  For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably

                  no, you cannot, read the conversation again.

                  most people have closer relationship to their own kids than to some other random co-citizen. so if some clown claims, for a sake of his argument, that he would be willing to sacrifice his own kids to protect… literally anyone else, you know he is a moron, or a liar. or both.

                  All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas’ human shields will fit into multiple categories.

                  sure, but that was not the point of my remark.

          • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            really? you would let them continue killing your kids? tell me you don’t have kids without telling me you don’t have kids 😆

            • bjornsno@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              How good of you to put words in my mouth. I would not kill your children if you killed mine. You’re fair game but I’m not gonna shoot your children and any other children nearby to get to you. This is not a tricky moral question.

              • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                question was:

                What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own?

                and your reply was

                yes

                albeit with a question mark, but you followed by explicitly refuting the “no” answer

                If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?

                what exactly am i putting in your mouth?

                • bjornsno@lemm.ee
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                  I don’t know how to explain to you that it’s wrong to kill their kids even if they’ve killed your kids. Especially when you seem determined to misconstrue anything I write.

                  • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    even if they’ve killed your kids.

                    they have killed your kids and THEY ARE GOING TO KILL MORE YOUR KIDS.

                    when you seem determined to misconstrue anything I write

                    i am literally quoting you. what is there to misconstrue?

      • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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        I would resign on the spot if I ever got an order like that. I don’t care if Nazis are resurrecting Hitler in the basement of the hospital, I can’t trade babies and children as acceptable collateral.

    • TigrisMorte@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      They had tunnels under it and the Israelis needed an excuse for having hit a Hospital when they were carpet bombing. So, no, there was no command post. No one shall ever be shown anything but the photos which could have been taken anywhere. None of which would change the bottom that bibi and hamas are the same picture.