JERUSALEM (AP) — The head of surgery at Gaza’s largest and most advanced hospital held up his phone Saturday to the hammering of gunfire and artillery shelling. “Listen,” said Dr. Marwan Abu Sada as fighting raged around Shifa Hospital.
Kinda similar to the “human shields” argument. When I read comics growing up, when a villain takes a hostage the answer was never “kill the hostage” except for the edgiest of antiheroes, yet here we are with “human shields” being used as a justification to kill civilians. It’s fucking wild.
This exactly is my main gripe with how Israel is conducting this war. They’re completely unwilling to take any additional risk to preserve civilian life.
Even the US sent troops in to kill a scumbag like Uday Hussein instead of bombing with an airstrike.
This is just the Zionist creed of “unlimited Palestinian deaths don’t make up for 1 Israeli.”
It’s not just in “this war”, they weren’t giving a shit about Palestinian civilians for decades.
Not like they care about any non Israelis in the area. Especially if they are press
They don’t care about Israelis either! They’ve killed a bunch of the hostages, and there was a lot of friendly fire at the music festival.
That’s why concluded that the Israeli leadership at the moment are full-blown Fascists: their treatment of people who they see as “not us” as subhuman and the style and intensity of their propaganda entirelly anchored on blaming the victim and them providing a variety of unverifiable excuses for their own killings which are even inconsistent amongst each other (often the excuses for different bombings have inconsistent criteria, which means they’re to a large extent arbitrary or the excuses are being made up after the fact and hence false) are quite the throwback to quite a style of Fascism which is almost a century old and manage to exceed just about everybody since WWII.
Even Russia in its invasion of Ukraine did not get this close to the historical worse kinds of Fascism, probably because the Russians are nowhere as racist towards Ukranians as Israelis are towards Arabs, especially Palestinians.
Well, the US has shown that they couldn’t fight an insurgency with their level of protections for civilians.
Makes sense that Israel assesses that they have less resources than the US, and thus can’t fight the same way and have a hope of success.Of course they could have used that as a pretty good reason not to start this war in the first placez but alas, they didn’t.
Israel stated this war, at a minimum, 17 years ago. Blockades are an act of war.
What argument are you making here? Your first paragraph implies you believe that Isreal is justified in it’s approach based on the US’s failed conflicts with Guerilla warfare. But then your second paragraph implies that Isreal is not justified for exactly that reason, which is like… Yeah… That’s correct lol.
I feel like it shouldn’t be a controversial opinion to say that if you are unable to conduct a war without massive civilian casualties then you shouldn’t be conducting that war. If you do anyway you are, at the very best, a war criminal.
This is, actually, an absurd opinion. Massive civilian casualties are inseparable from war, and you will be hard pressed to find a war without them.
The laws of war are built around, and exist because of, this assumption. They exist to give a framework that sets forth principles by which the loss of life can be evaluated.
Otherwise, by your definition, every warring faction ever is a war criminal.
Wow, that is an insanely obtuse interpretation of what I said.
Of course there are always civilian casualties In war. Of course that is why war crimes exist in the first place.
“Massive” literally means “Large in comparison to what is typical”. So when I say massive civilian cassualties forgive me for assuming you’d understand I was using that word for it’s intended purpose.
Bombing a hospital full of civilians is absolutely a war crime.
The US absolutely fought an insurgency. They just figured out they needed local support. They got it in Iraq, they didn’t get it in Afghanistan.
That’s Israel’s biggest problem here. They’ve spent the last several decades making Palestinians hate them. So there is no possible way for them to destroy Hamas.
Makes sense that Israel assesses that they have less resources than the US, and thus can’t fight the same way and have a hope of success.
Israel has one of the most powerful militaries in the region, with 500,000 troops, a $20 billion dollar budget, and shared tech with the US. They have no external bases to maintain. They’re terrorists who live at the border in 140 square miles with roads Israel designed to allow their tanks easy access.
In the first week of this genocide, Israel dropped more bombs than the US did during the entire Afghanistan war. On one of the most population dense regions in the world.
But further, Israel immediately cut power and water to Gaza. 2 million people went without water and electricity to attack how many Hamas terrorists?
And let’s be clear, this all happened because IDF forces were busy in the West Bank evicting Palestinians from their homes for settlers leaving the Gaza border unguarded.
this war
You mean “this genocide”. They don’t see civilians, they see targets for extermination.
If you kill hospitals, you kill a generation.
except for the edgiest of antiheroes
lol’d
Because that’s where the Palestinians are, and this is a genocide.
Because Israel is committing war crimes. Because Israel has stated, unequivocally, that Palestinians are animals and must be scourged off the face of the earth.
Placing the Blame soley on Israel is misinformed at best
Oh, Hamas is airstriking hospitals and refugee camps too? No? They’re not? Only Israel is doing that?
Why wouldn’t this genocide be blamed on the ones committing it? Use your head.
Because both sides are fighting are major assholes. Hamas does hide arms and fighters in and around hospitals. Israel doesn’t hold back attacking the hospitals to get at that gear, because they care more about killing Hamas than saving Palestinians. The civilians in Gaza are surrounded by assholes.
This is true in general, but this time they’re literally in Israel’s crosshairs. These people are dying to sniper fire.
deleted by creator
Here you go
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8phw94
Rockets literally stored 1m from the doorstep of a class room
Why are hospitals in Gaza under Israel’s crosshairs? Why? Is it truly that difficult to step back and think for a moment about why Israel would want to erase the current populace entirely?
Amazing, what a mystery
Not sure why you’re being downvoted… Israel an ethnostate, and what we’re seeing here are the early stages of a genocide. Look at any other ethnic cleansing in history, and you’ll easily see the parallels.
Well, I’m not sure early stages fits, that’s calling for a group to removed and Israel has been bombing water wells, while monopolizing all water supplies and providing only dangerously! small amounts of unclean water. Without question, this has caused unneeded deaths. Simmiliarly for electricity and food supplies.
It’s tragically been a genocide for a long time.
You know, I was trying to tread lightly, lest the Zionist apologists show up to try and redefine “genocide”.
But the reality is this:
- Tens of thousands of civilians are being murdered (shot, bombed, starved, water supply poisoned) by Israel’s military.
- Israel is an ethnostate which believes that their race makes them god’s chosen people.
- One of the Israeli government cabinet members has declared that the Palestinians in Gaza must be eradicated, and that he would drop a nuclear bomb on Gaze if he could.
When you use the U.N.’s definition of genocide (“acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”), the picture is pretty clear.
Absolutely. I hope I didn’t sound pedantic or talking down, my intent was just to have more details higher in the thread in case some of those zionist shit poster tolls take over the bottom. You’re 100% right on every point and I wish you weren’t.
I didn’t receive it as pedantic or talking down at all. I just totally agree with you as well!
War does not automatically equate to being a genocide just because people due. Otherwise, every war in history would.be genocide.
There are Arabs & Palestinians that serve in the IDF too and have killed Palestinians. There are other Arabs in Jordan and Syria who have also gone to war against Palestine.
You are using incindiary rhetoric to win an online argument, but your description doesn’t fit the facts.
You’re literally using the same arguments every genocidal government has used to justify their genocides in history.
I don’t know why people insist on this narrative. Isn’t the truth horrible enough? Hamas is allegedly using hospitals as shields, which is horrible. Israel is willing to kill countless civilians to get at Hamas, which is also horrible.
Because it’s what Israeli politicians and government officials actually believe. They aren’t even quiet about it. It’s genuinely not hard to prove the genocidal intent of the Israeli government.
Unfortunately western media just tends to gloss over it all. I’m not sure if reporters can’t fathom the US supporting ethnic cleansing or if they just want to avoid the flack they’d receive by being honest. Either way, it’s unfortunate because well meaning liberals are left to assume Israel genuinely cares about stopping Hamas and aren’t using them as a pretext to ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip.
Unfortunately western media just tends to gloss over it all. I’m not sure if reporters can’t fathom the US supporting ethnic cleansing or if they just want to avoid the flack they’d receive by being honest.
Please watch a documentary that covers any of the previous foreign wars the US has been in, especially those that came about before the internet boom (or better yet, one before and one after). I personally like to recommend the Panama Deception because it’s free on youtube and pretty short and succinct (only 90 min). On top of that Panama is still currently dealing with the issues started and maintained during the “wars” discussed in that documentary (I don’t knowing if you’ve seen about the ongoing Canadian mining protests).
The documentary covers some of what happened obviously, but it also shows some of the news airing at the time from the biggest American news channels that were covering the wars and how they covered it. You’d be amazed at what was claimed at home vs what was happening overseas. The MSM may as well have been a third arm of the US government. As much as they like to pretend to be neutral on domestic affairs which the people watching would easily be able to criticize, it should really be no shock to anyone that they’d mostly be parroting US gov talking points when it comes to foreign affairs.
Operation cast lead.
Humans shields was something the IOF engaged in.
Yeah, I mean there are people in the Israeli Government calling all Palestinians (not just Hamas) “animals”, others who say that Palestinians won’t be allowed to get back to Northern Gaza and there’s even a member of that Government who seriously suggested Israel should nuke Gaza.
And then, of course, there is the long track record of Israel doing things like murdering journalists and killing Palestinian kids throwing rocks at their armored diggers, especially under governments with these same people in them.
People who have a track record of murdering journalists and children, bombing hospitals full of those they see as “animals” which they want to see dead or out of Gaza, and then providing to the World some unverifiable excuse that blames somebody else and doesn’t even pass the sniff test when it comes to proportionality in the use of force is hardly out of character, especially because History has various examples of people who think like that going full on mass-murderer in similar ways.
Because Israel is trying to genocide.
They don’t care about Hamas, they just want Palestine gone.
That doesn’t explain why the rest of the world is ok with it.
We aren’t. But anyone that voices an opinion against Israel in my country is labeled an anti-Semite, so people stay quiet.
Also Putin is doing the same, global out rage, no one really stepped in due to politics
Most civilians aren’t but they’ve found out in 3 weeks time that they live all live in pretend democracies and not real ones. Mask off we’re the Russia now.
Because if you don’t support genocide you are an antisemite, and only one of those can destroy your political aspirations (hint, it isn’t supporting genocide).
Ever seen an oil tanker turn? That is the the way the world works with Israel slowly and not quick to judge. The rest of us though have had enough, fuck Israel and no funding of them whatsoever.
Removed by mod
What a terrible headline. If APNews thinks it’s a war crime, it has a duty to say so. You can’t just write a headline like this without drawing the obvious inference.
Does that headline not read war crime to you somehow?
Well it’s kind of open to interpretation, which may be why they didn’t want to directly say that, just imply it.
Article 19 of the Geneva convention:
The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.
Now are firing qassam rockets “harmful to the enemy”? Probably.
Has due warning been given? Maybe? It’s not well defined what that means. Does roof knocking count? Do you need to submit a form to their embassy?
I think the big problem is that the kind of warfare we are seeing here is unlike what they saw when they wrote those laws.
It is written in the passive. That’s intentional; it’s a classic approach that writers use to dodge the issue. It’s not OK and we shouldn’t excuse it.
Because someone decided it was such a funny idea to use these places to launch missiles at their enemies.
Fucking godawful people Hamas are, ruining the lives of 2 million people and assuring untold suffering for probably generations. The sooner those fucks are gone, the better.
Oh, well if bad people did bad thing, that definitely justifies bombing civilians, which totally isn’t a war crime.
Given most people aren’t reading the article, the particularly relevant points:
International humanitarian law lends hospitals special protections during war. But hospitals can lose their protections if combatants use them to hide fighters or store weapons, the International Committee of the Red Cross said. […]
In an editorial published Friday in Britain’s The Guardian newspaper, International Criminal Court prosecutor Karim Khan issued a warning to combatants that the burden of proof is on them if they claim hospitals, schools or houses of worship have lost their protected status because they are being used for military purposes. And the bar for evidence is very high.
“If there is a doubt that a civilian object has lost its protective status, the attacker must assume that it is protected,” Khan wrote. “The burden of demonstrating that this protective status is lost rests with those who fire the gun, the missile, or the rocket in question.”
TL;DR: If Hamas is conducting military operations from hospitals, they can be legitimate targets in the eyes of international law, but precautions still need to be taken to avoid civilian casualties and the case for their military use should be overwhelming, not amorphous or tenuous.
So just shouting, “They’re coming right for us!” Isn’t enough?
I’m shocked.
Netanyahu doesn’t give a duck.
Crazy thought, why don’t we just not bomb hospitals? Anyone?
Or how to make people hate you more than Hamas, a book by the IDF.
And if rockets and other weapons really are being fired from hospitals? What do you do then?
Removed by mod
That’s up to them to figure out how to do it with the least amount of civilian casualty then. Moot point anyway considering nothing has come out with overwhelming proof of Hamas using the hospital as cover.
We already know Hamas is in that hospital and have fired at least one anti-tank rocket out of it.
There’s also the time Islamic Jihadists fired missiles from right next to a different hospital.
Hamas has always used civilian infrastructure to attack from, it’s their MO. They want Palestinian civilians to get killed by Israel.
There’s two kinds of people; ones that use human shields and ones that are deterred by them. Atleast to a point.
Israel uses human shields. Operation Cast lead is what human shields looks like.
Stop justifying war crime in defense of an apartheid ethno state trying to commit genocide.
That was 15 years ago, and I see absolutely no mention of Israeli human shields anywhere regarding Cast Lead.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/mde150152009en.pdf
Page 48.
Israel does a good job of making the world forget their actions.
According to testimonies, in several cases Israeli forces also forced unarmed Palestinian civilian males (mostly adults but in two cases also children) to serve as “human shields”, including making them walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives. These practices are not new. Numerous such cases have been documented in recent years and the Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that such practices contradict International law and prohibited them in October 2005.73
explain
It’s no accident Hamas keeps their HQ’s and ammunition depots near civilian population aswell as regularly shoots rockets from near mosks and hospitals. They know Israel is atleast trying to minimize civilian casualties so they’re probably not going to just level that building without a warning as they would if it was located in the desert.
If Hamas had the military capabilities that Israel does and Israel would put their military HQ in the basement of Israeli hospital hoping to use their own population as human shields Hamas could not care less. They would level that building in a heartbeat and collateral damage would just be a bonus.
I do not think 10,000+ dead is “trying to minimize civilian casualties”
Israel has the capability to level both Gaza and West bank in a week and kill every single person in there. They haven’t. What would Hamas do if they had this capability?
If they actually did that the entirety of West Asia and North Africa would attack them and all their allies would abandon them.
So actually, no, Israel doesn’t have that capability.
You seem to have a different understanding of capability than I do. They could do it, so they have the capability, but that says nothing about the consequences.
No, they would be dogpiled as they did it. They wouldn’t be able to finish the job before the whole world ate them alive.
Hamas killed around 1100 israelis on Oct 7.
Israel killed at least 122 of the 1200 themselves. Most likely more
350 of the israelis killed were IDF
This mean the civilian casualty rate was around 70%. On Oct 7.
Hamas has a far better civilian casualty rate than America which goes around 80-90 while committing their supposed genocide attack. This is not an accident you can realize by blind firing into civilian areas.
Purely from these numbers we can conclude in ACTIONS not words that Hamas takes decent care to avoid civilian deaths even when attacking. Far better than israel which just bombs everything that moves.
The way I see it, Israel is doing its best to free the hospital from Hamas with as minimum innocents getting hurt as it can.
If that were true, then they would be sending in troops on the ground instead of indiscriminate bombings.
That not how that works the us tried that a few times in Afghanistan and the risk to their own people was too large compared to the lives saved which were next to none because of the hostage taking I know Israel is a shithole and Palestine is too but war isn’t as simple as just send people
So it’s better these children die than the soldiers killing them put their lives at risk?
From an outside perspective of course it isn’t but when you are a part of the military and you have the responsibility over your comrades lives you will do anything to protect them including killing people who you don’t know
Including commiting genocide and various war crimes?
I mean you have a point from a judicial standpoint and I’m not saying theyr behavior is ethical but I understand why they do what they do and i dprobablty do the same if it means my friends wouldn’t have to risk their life
No, they decided after a while that Afghani civilians were not worth the equivalent of an American soldier. And that was several years after the invasion which took literally less than a month.
Then they switched to bombing via drone, and Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize for convincing us that significant civilian collateral is a totally acceptable practice and definitely not some form of negligence for human life.
Even then, it was during the post invasion state. After the Taliban had been mostly destroyed and left in a dismantled state.
Israel just started its slow Gaza ground invasion. Bum IDF just barely stepped into the Urban zone earlier this week, yet they’ve been bombing civilians for the past month.
Obviously I don’t expect them to actually care about civilians or even the hostages, but I really wish they’d stop acting like they can’t actually engage in a proper ground battle.
Although with the tank kills Hamas has somehow been achieving, maybe the IDF really does suck at ground battles.
Although with the tank kills Hamas has somehow been achieving,
In modern urban warfare, it’s not very hard to down tanks with homemade (or I guess tunnel-made) rockets.
Right because they are responsible for keeping their soldiers safe
There are troops on the ground and the bombings are not indiscriminate, but on legitimate military targets.
What does the civilian:soldier death ratio need to be in order for it to be considered a ‘legitimate military target’?
Honestly? As terrible as it sounds, it can be almost arbitrarily high if you look at the Geneva convention.
For example, a hospital can be targeted after nothing more than a warning if the hospital isn’t used for humanitarian purposes only. There is no minimum duration specified between the warning and the attack.
Not that the Geneva conventions are a guide for morality. They solely limit the maximum of cruelty during war.
Removed by mod
The truth. Israelis are racist as fuck!
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/5JzGzyaUnz0
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Good bot
From the ISW report today: Israeli forces fought Palestinian militia fighters near the Square of the Unknown Soldier less than half a kilometer from the al Shifa Hospital complex.[1] A Palestinian journalist reported that the al Qassem Brigades—the military wing of Hamas—ambushed Israeli forces south of the Square of the Unknown Soldier on Shuhada Street.[2] Other Palestinian militia fighters fought Israeli forces on Omar Mukhtar Street, which bounds the square.[3]
If you build your defense in urban environment you are supposed to evacuate the civilians. This is standard for any half competent army.
If you build your defense in urban environment you are supposed to evacuate the civilians. This is standard for any half competent army.
To where? Gaza is small enough as is, and the whole strip is being bombed by Israel.
Also, Hamas isn’t an army; they’re a resistance force. Gaza doesn’t have a proper army, which is why they have to resort to asymmetrical warfare.
Away from Gaza City were they currently focus their defensive efforts.
They have a structure and recognition marks, they fall under the Geneva convention as lawful combatants.
Asymmetrical warfare does not allow you to use perfidy and abuse of a protected status.
The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated places in Earth.
