They are not stupid; they are an existential threat. Quit underestimating them!
Actually, the person you are responding to is correct - the far-right is too incompetent to gain power on their own. Power has to be handed to them by liberal regimes that can’t handle working-class revolt without the indiscriminate violence the far-right offers. That is why states always treat the far-right with kid gloves and allows it to fester - the ruling elites know that they might need them someday.
Maybe a simpler way of explaining that is that it always boils down to this; when forced to choose between supporting leftist/prog politics and fascism, it’s the status-quo liberals that consistently choose fascism out of fear that anything lefty/social-justicey would be too disruptive
Call it pedantry if you want, but the fascists themselves are what truly “makes fascism possible”.
Yes, there are plenty of folks have culpability in allowing these fucks gain control, from short-sighted collaborators who just want profit, idiots who think “they can’t really be that bad”, but there’s an extent to which I think we should be careful about victim-blaming well-meaning (but naive) folks who believe that Liberty and Justice will win the day (being misled by whitewashed historical narratives who erase the boots on the ground required to make social and political changes - and the organization necessary to resist the rise of fascists).
I get your point, and clearly (from the paragraph I just typed) agree to an extent - I just think it’s reductive to the point of undermining the movements against fascism when “liberals” all get thrown in the same basket.
Your analysis is almost there… but it’s missing something crucial - it’s missing an understanding of what the status quo actually is.
The people who are truly culpable for fascists existing are the people who need fascists to exist. Just look at the proto-fascist institution you are most familiar with - the police. The police did not invent itself - it was invented by a ruling elite that required the violence only a fascist element could provide. Fascism is not some aberration of the classical liberal nation-state - it’s an inherent feature.
When those who benefit from the status quo is threatened by revolt from below it is this fascist element that will provide the violence that secures the safety of their power and privilege - in fact, sometimes they will literally hand the reigns of the state over to this fascist element (as happened in mid-20th century Germany, Italy and Japan). And it never happens without the acquiescence of the (so-called) moderates, centrists and, of course, liberals.
We can hate fascists as much as we want… but fascists did not breed themselves, school themselves in the most depraved forms of violence and then let themselves off the leash.
We don’t disagree: there’s a short-sightedness that causes folks to say things like “once the boomers die out, things will be great”. There are systemic issues that gauze the greed and fear and violence, and the folks that get swept up in these movements are in large part products of their environment, as we all are.
So we need to change the environment, but otherwise well-meaning folks don’t want it to change because they benefit from it, even when they are vaguely aware that there are monsters out there that keep it that way. I’d like to think there’s more liberals/moderates who would be allies against fascism if this kind of thing can be communicated in a way that doesn’t alienate folks, but I’m also sympathetic to arguments that fiery language is necessary to rattle people out of comfort zones… So in sum, thanks for the good discussion.
This is the kind of naive bullshit that keeps people complacent until they suddenly find themselves being marched off to the showers.
They are not stupid; they are an existential threat. Quit underestimating them!
Actually, the person you are responding to is correct - the far-right is too incompetent to gain power on their own. Power has to be handed to them by liberal regimes that can’t handle working-class revolt without the indiscriminate violence the far-right offers. That is why states always treat the far-right with kid gloves and allows it to fester - the ruling elites know that they might need them someday.
Oh of course, it’s the “liberals” who are the real enemy.
Maybe a simpler way of explaining that is that it always boils down to this; when forced to choose between supporting leftist/prog politics and fascism, it’s the status-quo liberals that consistently choose fascism out of fear that anything lefty/social-justicey would be too disruptive
I’m afraid they are - and always have been.
The only thing that makes fascism possible is liberals “reaching across the aisle.”
Call it pedantry if you want, but the fascists themselves are what truly “makes fascism possible”.
Yes, there are plenty of folks have culpability in allowing these fucks gain control, from short-sighted collaborators who just want profit, idiots who think “they can’t really be that bad”, but there’s an extent to which I think we should be careful about victim-blaming well-meaning (but naive) folks who believe that Liberty and Justice will win the day (being misled by whitewashed historical narratives who erase the boots on the ground required to make social and political changes - and the organization necessary to resist the rise of fascists).
I get your point, and clearly (from the paragraph I just typed) agree to an extent - I just think it’s reductive to the point of undermining the movements against fascism when “liberals” all get thrown in the same basket.
Your analysis is almost there… but it’s missing something crucial - it’s missing an understanding of what the status quo actually is.
The people who are truly culpable for fascists existing are the people who need fascists to exist. Just look at the proto-fascist institution you are most familiar with - the police. The police did not invent itself - it was invented by a ruling elite that required the violence only a fascist element could provide. Fascism is not some aberration of the classical liberal nation-state - it’s an inherent feature.
When those who benefit from the status quo is threatened by revolt from below it is this fascist element that will provide the violence that secures the safety of their power and privilege - in fact, sometimes they will literally hand the reigns of the state over to this fascist element (as happened in mid-20th century Germany, Italy and Japan). And it never happens without the acquiescence of the (so-called) moderates, centrists and, of course, liberals.
We can hate fascists as much as we want… but fascists did not breed themselves, school themselves in the most depraved forms of violence and then let themselves off the leash.
We don’t disagree: there’s a short-sightedness that causes folks to say things like “once the boomers die out, things will be great”. There are systemic issues that gauze the greed and fear and violence, and the folks that get swept up in these movements are in large part products of their environment, as we all are.
So we need to change the environment, but otherwise well-meaning folks don’t want it to change because they benefit from it, even when they are vaguely aware that there are monsters out there that keep it that way. I’d like to think there’s more liberals/moderates who would be allies against fascism if this kind of thing can be communicated in a way that doesn’t alienate folks, but I’m also sympathetic to arguments that fiery language is necessary to rattle people out of comfort zones… So in sum, thanks for the good discussion.
Sure thing.
…good point, actually.