No, I’m not a vegan because I don’t know where the line for life I care about begins, but saying you don’t care at all what others kill to eat is clearly not true unless you’re just a pure egoist.
If you are in a situation where you must live exclusively off the land then you probably aren’t the person vegans are addressing. If you’re any random human, and especially if you are any random Lemmy user that is probably not the case though. Vegan staples are not a luxury. I’ve gone weeks on end eating for less than 5 USD a day in areas where food was expensive many times when I was tight on money. Beans, lentils, rice, potatoes, and other dense plant foods are some of the cheapest foods available.
As for desire, that’s simple. Desire very rarely trumps more serious moral considerations. It’s never right to murder someone simply because I desire to do so, and personally I don’t desire murdering others. Saying that’s how the world works is even worse than the naturalistic fallacy. You’re essentially saying morality and conditions cannot improve, that the world is immutably (un)just. You’re also saying we can’t change who we are, do you just not believe in self improvement? This isn’t just a depressing outlook but it is just historically inaccurate. It’s clear to me that there are many times in history where conditions got better or worse for people, and often do to the choices of humans.
Why are you even debating veganism when you don’t know what veganism is. Veganism isn’t a diet, and it includes avoiding all animal products whenever possible.
And just calling something a fallacy doesn’t make it so either.
But you are posting legit historical and ethical fallacies. Your stance is the natural is the good and that the world is impermeable anyway so why bother, honestly I’m not sure why you’d have to make both of these arguments as either would suffice if they were valid to begin with. And they are more than fallacies, they are bad faith arguments as nobody seriously believes these things.
Why should that be my line for life I care about though? How far is a chicken from a fish, from a worm? There is some line for animate life in which you can’t really argue any form of consciousness. And, again, my discriminator isn’t even necessarily consciousness.
The issue with that is distinguishing how humans interpret suffering from “emulated” suffering. Like maybe a lobster has instinctual or chemical reactions to things, but does it actually interpret the suffering or just react to the nerves firing. We can’t really know entirely without communication. And even if we do communicate, what if it just mimicks human suffering like a deep learning NN could. ChatGPT cannot suffer, but it can convince some inexperienced people that it can.
But it is also entirely fair to say- even if we don’t entirely understand if a dog is actually suffering, it looks like it is and acts like it is, so I will just be cautious and assume it is to not cause undue harm.
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No, I’m not a vegan because I don’t know where the line for life I care about begins, but saying you don’t care at all what others kill to eat is clearly not true unless you’re just a pure egoist.
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If you are in a situation where you must live exclusively off the land then you probably aren’t the person vegans are addressing. If you’re any random human, and especially if you are any random Lemmy user that is probably not the case though. Vegan staples are not a luxury. I’ve gone weeks on end eating for less than 5 USD a day in areas where food was expensive many times when I was tight on money. Beans, lentils, rice, potatoes, and other dense plant foods are some of the cheapest foods available.
As for desire, that’s simple. Desire very rarely trumps more serious moral considerations. It’s never right to murder someone simply because I desire to do so, and personally I don’t desire murdering others. Saying that’s how the world works is even worse than the naturalistic fallacy. You’re essentially saying morality and conditions cannot improve, that the world is immutably (un)just. You’re also saying we can’t change who we are, do you just not believe in self improvement? This isn’t just a depressing outlook but it is just historically inaccurate. It’s clear to me that there are many times in history where conditions got better or worse for people, and often do to the choices of humans.
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Why are you even debating veganism when you don’t know what veganism is. Veganism isn’t a diet, and it includes avoiding all animal products whenever possible.
But you are posting legit historical and ethical fallacies. Your stance is the natural is the good and that the world is impermeable anyway so why bother, honestly I’m not sure why you’d have to make both of these arguments as either would suffice if they were valid to begin with. And they are more than fallacies, they are bad faith arguments as nobody seriously believes these things.
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Why should that be my line for life I care about though? How far is a chicken from a fish, from a worm? There is some line for animate life in which you can’t really argue any form of consciousness. And, again, my discriminator isn’t even necessarily consciousness.
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The issue with that is distinguishing how humans interpret suffering from “emulated” suffering. Like maybe a lobster has instinctual or chemical reactions to things, but does it actually interpret the suffering or just react to the nerves firing. We can’t really know entirely without communication. And even if we do communicate, what if it just mimicks human suffering like a deep learning NN could. ChatGPT cannot suffer, but it can convince some inexperienced people that it can.
But it is also entirely fair to say- even if we don’t entirely understand if a dog is actually suffering, it looks like it is and acts like it is, so I will just be cautious and assume it is to not cause undue harm.
Removed by mod