- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
Gov. Gavin Newsom vetoed a bill Saturday that would have made California the first U.S. state to outlaw caste-based discrimination.
Caste is a division of people related to birth or descent. Those at the lowest strata of the caste system, known as Dalits, have been pushing for legal protections in California and beyond. They say it is necessary to protect them from bias in housing, education and in the tech sector — where they hold key roles.
Earlier this year, Seattle became the first U.S. city to add caste to its anti-discrimination laws. On Sept. 28, Fresno became the second U.S. city and the first in California to prohibit discrimination based on caste by adding caste and indigeneity to its municipal code.
In his message Newsom called the bill “unnecessary,” explaining that California “already prohibits discrimination based on sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, and other characteristics, and state law specifies that these civil rights protections shall be liberally construed.”
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Y’all, by banning this, someone who is the victim of caste discrimination has to first prove that caste discrimination even exists.
And every victim will have to prove this every time.
Yeah, it’s a terrible idea. You want such discrimination to be legally responded to using existing non-discrimination law, not something specific to it.
You completely misunderstood.
Because there is nothing specific to caste discrimination in existing law the victims will need to prove discrimination even exists in order to actually use existing non-discrimination law. Without specific protections the burden is on the victim to prove they were victimized at all.
Without specific protections the burden is on the victim to prove they were victimized at all.
I don’t understand. How would the new law have helped people who can’t prove they’re being discriminated against? How would that work?
It would create a clear burden of proof by defining caste discrimination in exact terms, which they could then use to make their case.
Without specificity, they have to prove caste discrimination exists and then prove that they meet the criteria.
What would this law have done to change it? How would it be applied? I hope that doesn’t sound like a bad faith question because I’m actually curious.
National origin/ancestry: Dalit. Seems covered?
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I wonder how much lobbying came from the tech industry where caste discrimination is definitely a thing
I’m in the tech industry, but not in California and I have never seen cast discrimination. How does this happen in California and gore is it not illegal based on current laws as Newsom is saying?
Here is a fun game: Your job probably has an org chart that lets you see the employee hierarchy. Now, realize that Indian last names almost always denote cast. Understand how to discern cast from names and take a look at your org chart.
I am a white tech worker, so I didn’t think much of cast discrimination since I personally never saw even a hint of it at my job. But then I looked at our org cart and oh boy… I now am firmly in the camp that says cast discrimination should be regulated.
I heard about the bill a few weeks ago on The Daily. Shortly after I was on LinkedIn and noticed that some of the devs from my company and a company that mine contracts with would only list a last initial. It made me wonder if the reason for that was because of caste discrimination.
We had some “prince” or something. He was horrible at his job, lost his temper often. He even yelled “How dare you put your feet up in my presence” once. This was a big company to. He was protected by his fellow caste members. Never fired. He eventually went back home instead because he didn’t like not being treated well in the US. Even those who protected him were glad he left.
“How dare you treat me like mere human?!”
Some people need to be reminded that we all bleed the same color.
I work in AAA games now. We don’t have a lot of Indians.
I wonder if it’s actually worse when names indicate how high someone was born or if it just makes identifying it easier. That said, that’s awful and either way I’d be happy if something was done about it.
Remember kids, if the law doesn’t specifically mention something, you can’t trust the implication that it should be covered.
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But at the same time, what exactly does caste discrimination even look like? Just writing a law against it doesn’t make it not a problem.
I get the feeling that someone who is facing caste discrimination (whatever that looks like) is also unlikely to be able to take legal action against the perpetrators due to the cost.
This is the worse of the two vetoes I read; what would the addition of the bill cost anyway?
“already prohibits discrimination based on sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, gender identity, sexual orientation, and other characteristics, and state law specifies that these civil rights protections shall be liberally construed.”
Caste falls under that stuff already…
The protections are already there, and making a specific law just for this would only legitimize that caste is a real thing and not some bullshit Indians did to discriminate amongst themselves.
So the bill would have accomplished nothing.
Caste doesn’t fall under any of these. Because people are clearly willing to hire Hindu people born in India of any gender. So you aren’t discriminating against race, national origins, religion, color, or gender. Since the USA doesn’t acknowledge caste it can’t differentiate between two people of different caste just because of their caste.
The only thing you mentioned that might apply is “Ancestry” but I can’t find a description of it since it isn’t listed under the protected classes list.
Discrimination isn’t inherently illegal. For example, you totally can discriminate against people under the age of 40. Which does happen. Many landlords won’t rent to people under 30 and that’s perfectly legal.
But as you pointed out USA doesn’t acknowledge caste, so specifying caste discrimination would be bad, so making sure it can be prosecuted under the “general” discrimination laws makes more sense, doesn’t it?
There are no “general” discrimination laws. There are only protected classes. As I said earlier you totally can discriminate against people as long as they don’t fall under a protected class. And caste isn’t covered by the existing protected classes. So even if you can prove discrimination based on caste is happening, it wouldn’t be illegal at a federal level.
Outlawing something doesn’t legitimate something. It just acknowledges that it is happening and requires action. And caste based discrimination is happening. Currently it’s just legal.
No offense but I kinda feel like you know what I meant when I said “general” discrimination laws, as in “existing discrimination laws”.
From some quick googling “The California law bars discrimination on the basis on ancestry. Dalit lawyers believe that caste discrimination is covered under it. Legal scholars have also argued that caste discrimination is cognizable as race discrimination, religious discrimination and national origin discrimination.”
Like I said originally, I don’t see why specifying caste would be an issue. This hasn’t been tested in court in CA yet but clearly we can see why the argument is being made that existing laws already cover it.
If caste is none of those things, explain what you think caste is then…
Because I want to see your attempt at saying something that doesn’t fit the other protections already
Caste is a social hierarchy mainly based on the job your ancestors had.
In India there are 5 major caste categories but in total there are around 25,000 sub castes. Only the “untouchables” might be protected as they are often of different religion or ethnicity.
But the other 4 major castes are of the same race, ethnicity, national origins, color, gender, and religion. There is a tendency of darker skin colors being more prominent in lower castes but it’s not a defining property of caste and you can find people of any complexion in each caste.
But maybe you can tell me which current protected class would differentiate between someone of the Kshatriyas and the the Vaishyas caste.
“job your ancestors had” sounds a lot like ancestry.
It does seem like it would fall under “no discrimination based on ancestry”, but I feel like a lawyer could argue otherwise.
I’m gonna have to stick with my original answer then
The protections are already there, and making a specific law just for this would only legitimize that caste is a real thing and not some bullshit Indians did to discriminate amongst themselves.
You think “caste” is a real measurable thing and want us to pass laws that also act like it’s a real difference…
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It would cost the votes of people who like caste discrimination.
Indigeneity was also part of it.
That would give Native Americans the right to claim all kinds of discrimination.
It might even affect fossil fuel explorations and water resources.
Can’t have that.
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Or anyone who likes discrimination for its own sake.
They need an explicit law because many of the perpetrators of this crime are immigrants, and it should be grounds for immediate and permanent deportation.
Let’s ban Zodiac sign discrimination or scientology thetan level discrimination! No! Giving these things recognition under law, even if negative, legitimized them.
Wow. He actually does have some common sense.
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This was a stupid law to begin with and Newsom is right for vetoing it. Stopping caste discrimination is an education and enforcement problem, not a legislative one.
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Because it would imply that this law would do anything to stop the problem. Caste discrimination is already illegal, so why does California need a redundant set of laws?
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