Fucking backward religion. So much would be better without any religion whatsoever
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As a Muslim, I’ll say two things:
1-“Religion of peace” is a word made up by right-wing Islamophobes so they can hate on Islam more. Islam never claims to be a “religion of peace”, though peace is valued highly in Islam.
2-What Iran is doing is at best tangentially related to Islam. They’re a dictatorship, plain and simple.
But it seems that when religion is intermixed with politics, it inevitably leads to dictatorships or regressive government.
At one point, where is the separation? I get that dictatorships also happen without religion, but it seems that religious parties in power inevitably bring a regressive agenda with them.
I’d say that this is an example of correlation vs causation (nowadays the conditions that are likely to produce religious governments are also exceedingly likely to produce dictatorships), but either way that’s not what I’m talking about.
The point is: There’s nothing in Islam justifying the shit they’re doing in Iran. At times like these people tend to forget that Middle Eastern cultures themselves are quiet sexist, and are many times actually held back by Islam, speaking as a Middle Eastern guy. That aside, this is a dictatorship that’s using Islam to give itself legitimacy; Islam itself doesn’t support this kind of behavior in the slightest, and most Muslims don’t either.
I understand that Islam doesn’t support anything like that in the scriptures, just like many other religions.
But religion has been used for milleniums as a cover for atrocious actions. At this point, they are not separable. So when is it enough?
Religion is inherently conservative. And we see everyday what conservatism does to the planet and the society.
But religion has been used for milleniums as a cover for atrocious actions. At this point, they are not separable. So when is it enough?
But don’t non-religious dictatorships also commit atrocious actions? In the end a cover is just that: a cover.
I am not talking about dictatorships only. Religion has been used to cover so many atrocities that it’s impossible to dissociate the actions from the religion itself.
But don’t non-religious dictatorships also commit atrocious actions?
Just because people die from heart attacks doesn’t mean cancer does not kill.
The USSR was atheist and was easily as terrible as Iran is now.
I’d say more personally given they actually committed genocide, but yeah.
I am not saying that being a secular person stops that person from being shitty, but religion has been used to cover so many atrocities that the actions taken in the name of the religion cannot be disassociated from the religion itself.
Ban religion. In my eyes, those who are religious are terrorists
Are you a troll or are you actually that dumb?
I wish I could meet some True Followers of Islam, I bet they all live in Scotland with the True Scotsmen.
They live… uh…
everyoneeverywhere. Quick reminder that the people protesting in Iran were also Muslims; they weren’t imported for the occasion.Edit: Fuck I brainfarted at the most important part.
True Scotsmen Muslims
Many Muslim leaders have called Islam a religion of peace. For example, the former Grand Imam of Al-Azhar, Ahmed el-Tayeb, has said that “Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance” and that “it is against all forms of violence and terrorism.” The current Grand Imam, Ahmed al-Tayyib, has also said that “Islam is a religion of peace and love” and that “it is against all forms of violence and extremism.”
Other Muslim leaders who have called Islam a religion of peace include the former King Abdullah II of Jordan, the former President of Indonesia Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, and the former Prime Minister of Malaysia Mahathir Mohamad.
Calling Islam a religion of peace and calling it the “religion of peace” as a name are different things. Peace is valued highly in Islam, but it’s not defined by it.
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I keep it as Ricky Gervais once put it: for a true religion of peace, the most extreme followers would be extremely peaceful.
Do you support gay/trans rights?
No, and if the criticism was directed at that I’d understand, but that’s clearly not what’s going on in the comments here. So can we keep criticism to things that are factually true, and not the actions of a minority dictatorship that’s opposed by their own population?
The reason I was able to guess that was because I looked at data on Islamic beliefs around the world. Most also support sharia law, which supports the use of lashes for various crimes(correct me if I’m wrong).
So do you believe lashes are an acceptable form of punishment? If so, then is your argument simply around it’s usage in this context and that there’s no Islamic law that states to lash people protesting the religion?
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Are you trying to tell that Iran has nothing to do with Islam? Is hijab has nothing to do with Islam?
Lashing people for saying things you don’t like has nothing to do with Islam.
Or is Iran following wrong/different kind of Islam?
Iran is Shia so since I’m Sunni my answer would be yes, but that’s not what you’re asking. An asshole that uses Islam as an excuse doesn’t indict Islam as a whole. Or it does, in which case we could use China and the USSR to say a lot about atheism.
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Christianity calls itself a religion of peace as well. I’m with @TheBlue22. The problem isn’t just Islam, it’s religion as a whole.
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Iran should just deport all their engineers, philosophers, critical thinkers, social unacceptable members to other countries that would be glad to receive a brain boost. That way, Iran could just happily fucking rot in its own juices.
Well one of them managed to escape
Who is going to take them? Every country puts up walls to keep refugees out.
People with advanced education have a much easier time immigrating.
Money
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Religion of peace
This is wrong by an islamic standpoint. Go to reddit with this bs… Life isnt that simple you 🤡
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(or practically any country with an islamic majority),
Oh you mean like Indonesia, Malaysia and all of North Africa? You’re free to be an ignorant Islamophobe, but please do it after using Google for five seconds.
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And Islamophobe it was created to deflect any criticism of islam,
No, it was created because people like you hate Muslims, and we needed a term for that. Or are you somehow denying that Muslims experience discrimination based on their religion (if only we had a term for that, maybe something starting with Islam and ending with phobia)?
Either way I don’t intend to pursue this conversation any further, but if your answer to my question is yes (and even if it’s no, really), you need to interact more with the outside world.
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Does not change anything about what i said. Religion has nothing to do with any of this, these countries would still be shitholes even if it never existed, but sure keep telling yourself what you want, makes it easier
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İran has been muslim for quite some time, was it always as it is right now? Do you seriously think that islam is the only factor here? Think a little bit for yourself
Hijab is not mandatory in Pakistan, you obviously have no clue what you’re talking about
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If in Pakistan, a democratic Muslim-majority country, hijab is not mandatory, then what makes you think a majority of Muslims agree with what this poor woman is going through? Hijab is also not mandatory in Turkey, Indonesia, and Morocco, but go on ahead and tell me how all Muslims are blood thirsty savages. Plenty of Muslims protested against the hijab in Iran just last year, but go on ahead and tell me how they support this woman’s sentencing. After all, according to you, a vast majority of Muslims wish harm on women who decide not to wear a hijab.
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She is getting 74 lashes for not wearing a hijab, what in the world are you going on about? You’re trying to say that what she is going through is Islamic and there are plenty of arguments all throughout this comment section proving that it has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims, yet you keep on going on about how evil they are and how they approve of her fate. I suggest you take a reading comprehension test, or better yet, stop trying to purposefully obfuscate your argument as it becomes more and more untenable.
You definitely convinced me.
I dont need to convince you, believe what you want. Im just telling you that youre wrong
This is wrong by an islamic standpoint.
The part about it being the religion of peace? Yeah we noticed.
I am so sad that the mass protests had no effect. Poor Iranian people, especially women. What can anyone do to free them?
Conservatism is a global plague. Pacifism has never worked to cure this disease. Until the normal people rise up and do the horrific dirty work needed to erase this disease, it will continue to infect and kill.
The cure is not clean, but history has proven that conservatism is a fatal disease when left untreated.
The protests weren’t peaceful. They were riotous. It didn’t work, unfortunately.
I’m aware. And I am heart-broken. The violence, unfortunately, must involve not stopping until the conservatives no longer exist in any position of power. Extreme violence with a lack of mercy may be required. I don’t think the Iranian people really have that in them. I hope I am proven wrong some day. This government was foisted upon them by us. This conservative government was not entirely the people’s fault in this case.
For the rest of us, wherever the conservative disease persists, the natural result will always be brutal oppression of the vulnerable. Always. A cure must be administered long before the disease becomes this advanced.
They didn’t work because they weren’t fighting Islam they were fighting a more extreme version of it. Diet Islam vs Real Islam = Real Islam winning.
Successful revolutions it is trivial to name Atheist/Diest leaders.
If the cure for violence is more violence, are you really solving anything?
I mean yes.
Fair enough, violence away and we’ll see how it plays out.
The ones that lose don’t ever argue. In fact, everyone alive today is the product of one group violently defeating the other. It sucks, but the person that doesn’t fight back doesn’t survive to future generations while the bullies proliferate.
Tit for Tat seems the way to go https://youtu.be/BOvAbjfJ0x0?si=wbrd1YByz5DJkX43
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/BOvAbjfJ0x0?si=wbrd1YByz5DJkX43
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
They say those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Maybe they should also say those who know history will choose to repeat it.
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Start by protesting religion in your own country. Religion is bad everywhere. If some crazy groups want to believe in fairies, that’s ok, just do it in your home and don’t bring it out of there.
Publicly putting groups in your cross hairs tends to motivate said group.
Motivates said group to what?
Whatever they perceive as defensive measures. Rallying against those they are threatened by, recruiting, doubling down on their commitment and beliefs.
Then the government must take stricter measurements against said groups. Lets see who lose at the end.
What can anyone do to free them?
Arm them.
How do you get the arms to them?
Well step 1 should not be selling drugs in Latin America. We already tried that.
I was heartened to hear about the people keeping up the public opposition of the clerics, beyond knocking off their turbans. I hope that the clerics understand that their time is passing and that they are shaking in their sandals with the very realistic fear that they will continue to get randomly gunned down by the people anytime an opportunity presents it. Fuck theocratic Islam and all other exclusivist religions.
Even the Gulanist movement from Turkey, who likes to put on a friendly face to the western world, is exclusivist – if pressed, their real opinions come through their strategic friendly face da’wah, e.g., it is not hard to get them to call Sufis (one of the few mystical/not-exclusivist islamic groups) heretics or “not real muslims.”
it is not hard to get them to call Sufis (one of the few mystical/not-exclusivist islamic groups) heretics or “not real muslims.”
Exclusivist meaning? Because while I would hesitate to call anyone a heretic as a Muslim I can think of quite a few reasons someone would call Sufis that.
Yes, because you apparently hold exclusivist ideas about what a “real muslim” is. Religious exclusivity is where you believe your way is the only way to a proper relationship with “god,” that non-members of your group are doomed in some way or another, and that atheists and those religions that don’t believe in the Abrahamic God are especially doomed.
Oh, that’s what you meant. That’s… uh… how religions work in general? Like yeah if that’s the meaning then not being exclusivist is just kufr. The only weird part that you consider being exclusivist such a bad thing.
Believe it or not, that is not how religions work in general. Not that you could tell over the noise of the fundamentalist evangelical christians, but major Christian denominations are no longer exclusivist, no longer believe that any religious text is divinely inspired and flawless, gave up the iron age notion of women as so much chattel entirely subject to the will of men, etc. Judaism is largely NOT exclusivist though the orthodox believe that Jews should be observant to their interpretation of the jewish law.
The fact that you’re willing to call out what is kufr or not is but one example that modern Islam is by-and-large fundamentalist, just a question of degree.
The fact that you’re willing to call out what is kufr or not is but one example that modern Islam is by-and-large fundamentalist, just a question of degree.
That’s true.
Buddhism, at least in some of its forms, isn’t like that. For example, Zen Buddhism would absolutely not endorse the suggestion that Zen Buddhists know something others don’t know, or have anything special, or have a special technique, or can come to gain or achieve something special that sets them apart from others. If you wander towards any of these ideas you’d be very clearly missing the point.
What can anyone do to free them?
The problem is religion. The best way to deconvert people is to show them that you can function without skydaddy. Allah (as a concept) has always been a narcissist, you are nothing without it.
Me personally if I was given the task I would move billions into generating content showing people of Iranian background living normal lives with diet-Islam to no-Islam. From movies and TV, to hiring Instagramers. An ocean of content being pumped into there every year.
I think the problem is the US-installed dictatorship, but I could be wrong Idk.
Absolutely. It was space vegan socialism humanist utopian paradise prior to 1953. Such a fine year 1953, my parents wouldn’t be born for a decade and they are grandparents now. That was the also the moment Islam developed all of its problems, you see there was no slaves, or gender oppression, or bigotry, or war, or dictatorships for 1300 years. Nope just utter paradise for 13 centuries.
Why is the standard a perfect society instead of societies from the same time period?
skydaddy I Lollled a bit 🤣🤣 🤣
Thanks, wish I could claim to have coined the term. Such an improvement over “heavenly father”.
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A religion where women are beaten and people are blown up for fun. Islam is like a cancer of all modern religions. I must check how many down votes I get in next 12h.
cancer of all modern religions
Meh, they’re all pretty bad imo
Modern Religion is an oxymoron
Oh none from me, though I’d pool just about every other religion in with that. They’re all shit in their own ways. The concept of a modern religion also makes no sense, by their nature religions are archaic power tools used to control the masses against their individual will via their collective will.
A religion where women are beaten and people are blown up for fun.
I’ll just say that we (well most of us) also hate the people who do these things. I’ll also say that you’re a bigot.
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Wait, people actually still get lashes?? What fucking year is this
It’s the age where in many muslim countries, if you say something even mildly critical about the ruling class or the priests or Islam, there’s a very high risk of being executed for it.
In Muslim countries it’s always the middle ages
yeah welcome to the real world
More like the modern dark ages
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so much fuss over a hat,please muslims, make it make sense. why is it a female’s job to worry about your stupid ass erections?
Dont say muslims, i dont give a shit what you think this is OBVIOUSLY not what the majority of muslims want or support. This isnt even right in the most literal islamic pov
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Would you kindly explain how the no true Scotsman fallacy applies here?
It is explained for 5 yearolds in the article.
The people doing this are muslims doing it in the name of Islam. If you’re only defence is that they’re not “real” muslims then youre what the fallacy is talking about.
I’m not saying they’re not real Muslims, but that doesn’t mean all Muslims, or Islam as a whole, is like that. Actions of the minority don’t define the majority, or else they’d be just that: A majority.
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Yeah nah over a billion people dont have to speak up because of actions like this in random ass countries, especially a shia country, that mist wouldn’t even consider muslim…
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Again no, there is no such rule. You can not enforce Islam and you can not punish someone for not following it with lashes, such things are forbidden.
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Just because they claim that doesnt make it actually 100% islamic dumbass tf
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How tf do you even get a thought like ? It really impresses me You willingly misinterpret what im saying
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A country of barbarians.
every religious-led country is a country of barbarians.
it is the human collective absolving themselves of responsibility in liue of some greater power
religion is a transmissible poison that must be removed, like cigarettes
Hooray, a Persian Gulf country sentenced someone to a punishment other than death for a harmless crime!
I thought 74 Lashes were clearly lethal?
AFAIK there is nothing humane about such a sentence, on the contrary, it can mean slow and painful death.
I just tried to find this out, in most muslim countries, the too many lashes are spread out over several times, to avoid death. A limit is for example 50 lashes per time in Saudi Arabia.
Fucking barbarians.
Absolutely, although I don’t think barbarians were quite that bad.
Wasn’t barbarian just Roman slang for non Romans?
Yes, but more specifically the non romans from the north.
I think Barbarian comes from much later when the Barbary Pirates were kidnapping people and razing villages and towns to the ground and forcing people into slavery. I think “Goths” and “Vandals” would be more appropriate, but I could be wildly mistaken
Queue the blood eagle!
Obligatory I don’t agree with the mess going on in Iran.
With that out of the way, there’s a decent amount of restrictions on the lashing process to make the sentence painful but not lethal or permanently disabling. Lashing someone with all your strength and ripping the flesh off their back pre-Civil War America style isn’t a thing., because ripping the flesh off people’s backs tends to kill them.
And muslisms in france don’t understand the ban of hijabs in schools. This is why.
Talk about a non-sequitor.
Explain?
You’re basically saying France that banning hijab somehow has anything to do with not becoming a dictatorship.
It is banning a religious ideal imposed by an opressive reliegion. It has anything to do with not becoming a dictatorship.
This is how a dictatorship look like: “Iranian Enginner who protested forced hijab sentenced to 74 lashes”
You’re still not actually supporting that claim. I guess this is what it looks like when you haven’t reasoned your way into a position.
By the way, there’s a reason democracies tend to value freedom of religion.
Is anyone banning people from being Muslims? Let me know and I’ll go protest for them to the streets.
Seriously, this is the best you came up with? Technically being Muslim isn’t banned in China either. Preventing people from harmlessly practicing their religion is also against freedom of religion.
I was told that it was a ban on all religious symbols and it wasn’t a targetted attack on a minority group. Now you are saying it is targeted.
Are we doing the “say the quite part loud” now?
When did I say it was targeted?
You implied it. "banning a religious ideal imposed by an opressive reliegion. "
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Wait what??? But my college buddy who fell down the ruzzian propaganda pipeline tells me the west is evil and Iran is actions of the most moral countries out there!!
Jfc
Iran, such a innocent country, the regime, victims of the evil west…
When I read the title I just imagined how society there is stuck in the medieval ages… just a sad state of affairs…
As others have mentioned, others get far worse, being hung from cranes on a daily bases, most of them Kurds for seeking their freedoms.
Can Iran not be a victim of the west but also wrong in their treatment of women?
Society isn’t stuck in the medieval ages there. It’s cruel, sure. But they have phones, coffee and automatic weapons just like everyone else, so they’re firmly in the same age as everyone else.
This woman is using her privilege as a prominent(ish) figure to highlight the injustices prevalent in Iran, so she’s unlikely to get the worse punishments you’ve mentioned. I say fair play to her and I hope more people get to speak out.
Sadly, though, history tells us that dictators can do whatever the fuck they like to their own people with no repercussions.Yes they can be the victim of the west and also terrible. But you have to ask yourself if the meddling of the west helped create the conditions for this terribleness. My recollection is that the mullahs staged a revolt to oust a US-installed puppet regime.
I don’t think that question will have a remotely simple answer.
As broadly as I phrased it, it’s really pretty simple. The answer is yes.
You’re right. Did it help? Absolutely. But it’s such a complex situation that I reckon no single human fully understands how, or the interplay between that and all of the other factors at play.
And from there, moving towards a place where there is justice/fairness is impossible because a consensus on what that even means is impossible. It’s incredibly depressing.It’s toxic is what it is. You could pour goodness and light into it for a century and the hatred and division would just eat it up and shit it out. The west has fucked the region royally. They’ve also fucked themselves and each other royally.
It’s an evil theocratic dictatorship, but do you know how it got that way? There was a revolution opposing a US puppet ruler. The west would like all Middle East nations to be like the Saudis: nice, stable petro states who are compliant for the most part and who cares what happens there internally. But this formula has gone wrong several times (Iran) or the west hasn’t tried as hard to achieve stability because the oil incentive isn’t there (Syria) or the borders were specifically drawn to crate instability (Iraq).
There’s no pointing fingers at the Middle East without acknowledging the culpability of the UK, France, Russia and the USA in their horrid dysfunction. Understanding this is a rite of passage. Children point and hoot about the horrible Arabs. Adults know what’s actually up with that part of the world.
Interesting. Did the evil west make the islamists purge their leftist allies after the shah was deposed in the glorious revolution?
Don’t try to turn me into someone saying that everything is western corruption and nothing is the fault of the nationals themselves.
That’s a textbook straw man. Have fun beating it up.
Yeah it’s all the west’s fault
Give me a fucking break, the west isn’t responsible for them treating women like literal trash for hundreds of years
No, just for creating the conditions that allowed the mullahs to seize power. You know that the vast majority of Iranians hate the dictatorship, right? Everything they do is to control their internal population. A lot of people who would never call themselves feminists suddenly care about women’s rights when it privides a way for them to unleash their hatred on Iranians.
All religion is fucking useless Jai sree ram jai sree ram 😼🚶 Anyone knows about Dinkoism ? Its a parody religion from kerala
That’s actually really interesting. I wonder if any religious folks are able to deconstruct their own beliefs after seeing this movement.
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Accept this downvote then, basement dweller.
Did you miss the mass protests in Iran?
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What do you mean by this? I am not sure I follow.
I’m very surprised at you getting mass downvoted.
Their current plight goes all the way back to the 70s, where they literally got everything they wanted.
The Shah deposed, check. Carter humiliated and out of office, check. Religious oligarchy / theocracy / Islamic fundamentalism and Khomeini in power, check. Reagan elected, check. The US embarrassed and shamed, check.
Nothing good it seems come out of getting involved in the affairs of the Middle East.
