If you think you can actually radicalise liberals you probably haven’t tried talking to them during an election year.
It’s much easier to de-extremify (or even radicalise) a fascist than a liberal, and the reason why is pretty clear to me now - liberals are far, far more invested in the maintenance of the status quo than the rank-and-file fascist is.
You can’t radicalize a liberal during the worst fucking time to radicalize a liberal. Libs have their hearts in the right place but believe in the system, fascists understand the system is fucked and take the worst possible position in response. Fascists can be converted reasonably quickly but are much easier to convert back. Liberals need you to convince them, and it’ll be slow, and they’ll resist and they’ll probably stay where you leave them.
I don’t want the people more committed to radicalism nearly as much as I want the people more committed to ethics.
I’m afraid not - liberals are perfectly easy to reel back in. The very function of liberalism is to co-opt radical ideas and make them subservient to the status quo - to play the political carrot as opposed to the political stick (the latter being what they keep fascists around for).
I want the people more committed to ethics.
How can you trust people’s ethics when they can be so easily convinced of that which is utterly unethical?
Every fascist is a fallen comrade the capitalists got to first with the wrong solution?
Horseshoe brainlessness aside, there are certainly quite a lot of the opposite, Marxist/anarchist scholars in America who ended up swerving hard right as they aged under Reaganism. It’s pretty weird to me.
Every fascist is a fallen comrade the capitalists got to first with the wrong solution?
Not every one… there are lots of utterly irredeemable people in the fascist rank-and-file. And there’s no point in trying to differentiate which is which when they are marching down the street.
There is one thing that we on the left needs to take cogniscance of. The (so-called) “liberal democracies” we exist under only allows for the existence of two distinct ideologies - liberalism and fascism. It is only logical that when the one fails, people will attempt the other.
Moussilini was an anarchist activist first. But yes, some fascists are fallen comrades, but others very much aren’t. The ones who really aren’t love to bait the left so we waste our time on them instead of others who are more dedicated to change than cruelty
I mean, horseshoe theory can be useful, if you look at it more as “status quo adherence vs dislike of the status quo.” Whether you’re on the left or the right, you agree that things right now are fucked and need to be fixed. From that stance, it’s not surprising that you can break a Trumper’s conditioning by turning their ire from the culture war to the oligarchs that puppeted them, but it’s also not surprising that someone who was already against the status quo could fall for fascist propoganda.
“It’s much easier to de-extremify (or even radicalise) a fascist than a liberal, and the reason why is pretty clear to me now - liberals are far, far more invested in the maintenance of the status quo than the rank-and-file fascist is.”
This is super interesting to me, because it simultaneously challenges my assumptions while making intuitive sense. I don’t have any experience trying to de-extremify a fascist, but what you describe feels plausible
There’s a good reason why overtly fascist regimes rely on much, much more overt and direct forms of censorship than liberal ones - it is far easier to throw a spanner into the logic machinery.
The problem with liberals is that liberal propaganda starts making more and more sense the higher up in the working class’ class structure you go - a well-to-do lawyer from an upper-working-class family is going to be far more invested in the capitalist status quo than a hot-dog salesperson who is struggling to pay the rent. The more invested somebody is in the status quo, the more their logic will shield them from critiques of said status quo. Where you sit is where you stand… like the German quote goes.
There’s a distinct class thing going on here which we on the left has completely ignored - you can just hear it in the way liberals talk about people lower down the economic pecking order. Just see how upper-middle class folks talk about the “hillbillies” and “inbreds” that (supposedly) all voted for Trump.
I still won’t believe that leaving a black woman holding the bag the Dems took turns shitting in when it became obvious that they were utterly losing is some kind of coincidence.
Tl;dr: to all the genocidal apologists and enablers - you are the crazy fucking extremists.
That part is probably a coincidence. It was pretty clear last election democrats have entirely lost the thread to the point they’re basically just as dangerous as gwb was in the early 2000s.
A year of watching the entire party defend the actions, support a genocidal regime followed by the complete suppression of Palestinian members from the platform, suppression of student activists. Followed by completely ignoring the economic issues of the middle class was basically their version of taking the mask off and hollowed out what little remaining support they had from people like myself. Nothing made me happier than watching them lose an election the thought they could phone in because trump was running again. Not particularly happy with the result but happy they face planted.
I’m afraid it goes a lot deeper than that. I don’t think the left really grasps the true nature of the relationship between liberalism and fascism. Biden had to lose to allow the other lot in… if liberals are seen to wield the stick (as opposed to the carrot), liberalism becomes useless to the ruling elites. And that’s really the way our (so-called) “liberal democracies” have always worked - the liberals do the lying, the fascists do… the other stuff. The only difference now is that the Oct 7th attack has shone a spotlight on a lib regime and caught them with their hands stuck inside the genocide cookie jar.
This is something all antifascists will have to grapple with - it doesn’t matter how good you become at beating up fascists… if you are only beating up fascists you are only hurting the part of the weed that’s growing above ground. If we can’t find effective ways of problematising and confronting liberals and liberalism itself, we are simply playing wack-a-mole… until the liberals hand the mole the keys to all the tanks, of course.
If you think you can actually radicalise liberals you probably haven’t tried talking to them during an election year.
It’s much easier to de-extremify (or even radicalise) a fascist than a liberal, and the reason why is pretty clear to me now - liberals are far, far more invested in the maintenance of the status quo than the rank-and-file fascist is.
You can’t radicalize a liberal during the worst fucking time to radicalize a liberal. Libs have their hearts in the right place but believe in the system, fascists understand the system is fucked and take the worst possible position in response. Fascists can be converted reasonably quickly but are much easier to convert back. Liberals need you to convince them, and it’ll be slow, and they’ll resist and they’ll probably stay where you leave them.
I don’t want the people more committed to radicalism nearly as much as I want the people more committed to ethics.
So when is the correct time to radicalise them? When they’re asleep? You know, like they are as long as there’s a lib in the Waffle House?
How can your heart be in the right place if you believe in the status quo?
I said it was easier - not quick.
They can’t be convinced - and that’s not just my opinion.
I’m afraid not - liberals are perfectly easy to reel back in. The very function of liberalism is to co-opt radical ideas and make them subservient to the status quo - to play the political carrot as opposed to the political stick (the latter being what they keep fascists around for).
How can you trust people’s ethics when they can be so easily convinced of that which is utterly unethical?
Every fascist is a fallen comrade the capitalists got to first with the wrong solution?
Horseshoe brainlessness aside, there are certainly quite a lot of the opposite, Marxist/anarchist scholars in America who ended up swerving hard right as they aged under Reaganism. It’s pretty weird to me.
Not every one… there are lots of utterly irredeemable people in the fascist rank-and-file. And there’s no point in trying to differentiate which is which when they are marching down the street.
There is one thing that we on the left needs to take cogniscance of. The (so-called) “liberal democracies” we exist under only allows for the existence of two distinct ideologies - liberalism and fascism. It is only logical that when the one fails, people will attempt the other.
Moussilini was an anarchist activist first. But yes, some fascists are fallen comrades, but others very much aren’t. The ones who really aren’t love to bait the left so we waste our time on them instead of others who are more dedicated to change than cruelty
I mean, horseshoe theory can be useful, if you look at it more as “status quo adherence vs dislike of the status quo.” Whether you’re on the left or the right, you agree that things right now are fucked and need to be fixed. From that stance, it’s not surprising that you can break a Trumper’s conditioning by turning their ire from the culture war to the oligarchs that puppeted them, but it’s also not surprising that someone who was already against the status quo could fall for fascist propoganda.
This is super interesting to me, because it simultaneously challenges my assumptions while making intuitive sense. I don’t have any experience trying to de-extremify a fascist, but what you describe feels plausible
There’s a good reason why overtly fascist regimes rely on much, much more overt and direct forms of censorship than liberal ones - it is far easier to throw a spanner into the logic machinery.
The problem with liberals is that liberal propaganda starts making more and more sense the higher up in the working class’ class structure you go - a well-to-do lawyer from an upper-working-class family is going to be far more invested in the capitalist status quo than a hot-dog salesperson who is struggling to pay the rent. The more invested somebody is in the status quo, the more their logic will shield them from critiques of said status quo. Where you sit is where you stand… like the German quote goes.
There’s a distinct class thing going on here which we on the left has completely ignored - you can just hear it in the way liberals talk about people lower down the economic pecking order. Just see how upper-middle class folks talk about the “hillbillies” and “inbreds” that (supposedly) all voted for Trump.
This was on full display during the last election. Genocide is apparently okay now. Long as a black woman or senile old man enables it.
Idiotic comments like this continuing to be made will never make sense. How can you be this stupid but also on the left
Hilariously idiots like yourself are never able to justify their support for genocide and are reduced to insults.
So get bent. Enjoy your fascism you’ve earned it.
I still won’t believe that leaving a black woman holding the bag the Dems took turns shitting in when it became obvious that they were utterly losing is some kind of coincidence.
Tl;dr: to all the genocidal apologists and enablers - you are the crazy fucking extremists.
That part is probably a coincidence. It was pretty clear last election democrats have entirely lost the thread to the point they’re basically just as dangerous as gwb was in the early 2000s.
A year of watching the entire party defend the actions, support a genocidal regime followed by the complete suppression of Palestinian members from the platform, suppression of student activists. Followed by completely ignoring the economic issues of the middle class was basically their version of taking the mask off and hollowed out what little remaining support they had from people like myself. Nothing made me happier than watching them lose an election the thought they could phone in because trump was running again. Not particularly happy with the result but happy they face planted.
No point in wasting time on them anymore.
I’m not disagreeing with you.
I’m afraid it goes a lot deeper than that. I don’t think the left really grasps the true nature of the relationship between liberalism and fascism. Biden had to lose to allow the other lot in… if liberals are seen to wield the stick (as opposed to the carrot), liberalism becomes useless to the ruling elites. And that’s really the way our (so-called) “liberal democracies” have always worked - the liberals do the lying, the fascists do… the other stuff. The only difference now is that the Oct 7th attack has shone a spotlight on a lib regime and caught them with their hands stuck inside the genocide cookie jar.
This is something all antifascists will have to grapple with - it doesn’t matter how good you become at beating up fascists… if you are only beating up fascists you are only hurting the part of the weed that’s growing above ground. If we can’t find effective ways of problematising and confronting liberals and liberalism itself, we are simply playing wack-a-mole… until the liberals hand the mole the keys to all the tanks, of course.
Tl;dr wasnt for you. ;)