I mean, it kinds seems inevitable to me. Books has become e-books. Cash is becoming digital transfers. China has done it. The west is mostly doing card-swipes. One day, that transition will be complete, and cash would be phased out.
What happens then? Think like the power outage in Spain recently. Some people had cash. But in 20-40 years. There might not even be any cash in existence. What then?
What if, instead of a few hours, its a few days? Or weeks?
I guess riots break out all around the world?
(Seriously, has none of the politicians ever thought about this? Where are the backups? Are we just going full “YOLO” on the reliance on the power grid?)
What happens when an abused person has to escape a partner/parent who controls all the money? Where do they go, what food and board are they getting?
How do small traders set up garage sales and marketer stands, especially if they don’t want to give cuts of their money to corporate giants Eftpos and Visa?
How do those with impulsively/memory issues (such as ADHD, dementia, and teenagers) manage the abstraction of their money, leading them to accidentally overspending/overdrafts?
How do you spot a stranger in need a bus fare home?
How do we support the street artists and buskers?
…I don’t like the idea of cashless. My country already uses eftpos and visa as the norm (so ofc we all pay those overseas companies their fees). But while wide accepting of the card is good and useful, true cashless has issues of usability. It’s not just ‘something something government tracking spending’.
Vulnerable people fall through the gaps, and it means people make a lot more consumer transactions and a lot fewer personal ones.
Cards destroyed so many lives but if you say it out loud people think you’re a tin foil hat nutjob
Cards themselves have been very useful. They’re much lighter and harder to steal money than carrying hundreds in cash in your pockets.
It’s cashless that is a concern, not the existence of cards.
The answer is: We’re fucked.
People were warned of mass surveillance, and here we are, cameras everywhere, over the entire world. Everything is tracked. Same thing will happen to paper money and coins.
Cash is expensive for stores to manage, count, and sort. That’s the actual reason they want it gone, not tracking. Sure, we’re being tracked, but that’s not the point. Thanks to our phones, our personal lives have already been completely disseminated.
Cashless is about making things easier for businesses that struggle with handling cash. A cashless society acts like consuming goods from those businesses is the only reason money exists, and that’s wrong.
A cashless society means your overlords will have COMPLETE control of your lives. Of course the oligarchs will have secret avenues of cash for themselves.
look at sweden…hands out papers telling you to have cash for week…but doesnt accept cash anywhere. we all can learn from the dumb nations.
no cash means government controls who you can give money to. beggers,homeless ppl, panhandlers… are all doomed. if you cant get a phone, you cant have money. if you dont have a home or money you cant sign a phonecontract and so on…
cashless societies are nothing but a nasty techbro dream.
beggers,homeless ppl, panhandlers… are all doomed
In China, they have Wechat Wallet that people can give money to homeless people. Even homeless people have phones.
cashless societies are nothing but a nasty techbro dream.
It is nasty and dystopian, I agree. But its not really a fantasy anymore, its real, the dystopian future is on the horizon. Soon, it’d be too late to stop the dystopia.
At first, mass surveillance cameras is only in China, but then even supposed “democracies” like the UK have millions of cameras. Then China became mostly cashless, that will also eventually happen to western countries.
The dystopia is coming. You can’t stop it.
I visited Australia last year. There were surveillance cameras just about everywhere. Even on rural highways to catch speeders
heard that china pandler story too often by now. durinf sleep ppl tend to dream but reality will come they will wake up. maybe we are a cashless world by then…i wont stop it…but reality will. in a world of nations fighting each other digital money cant work.
In Spain credit cards still worked during the outage.
And the proposal for digital Euro already contemplate an offline mode for transactions.
As long as the power loss doesn’t last days and batteries die out there would not be a problem with that.
And outage of days will bring so many problems that cashless society might be the less of them.
We can return to a primitive society to avoid dependence on electricity, but do we want that?
I think the best option is just people be prepared with food medicines and offline entertainment for a week in case of a big power loss.
Spain here… How and what area are you referring to? Internet, Cell Phone Towers, Everything was down, no one was accepting credit cards in my neighborhood. The only thing they were accepting were IOU’s (if you knew the store owner) and Euros.
Center spain. Until 6pm we didn’t had internet or electricity. But most TPV still worked.
Here is an article explaining why: https://www.xataka.com/servicios/resolviendo-grandes-incognitas-apagon-que-algunos-datafonos-funcionaban-red-otros-no
Basically there’s two ways. The SAI of the supermarkets keep them going. Or they had the advanced models that accepted offline transactions.
I guess riots break out all around the world?
I feel like this idea that people are just going to riot and do mass violence is some right wing fear.
Most people, most of the time, are pretty social cooperative creatures.
I disagree and think it depends on where you live
People will adjust. What happened on Portugal and Spain was caused by excessive centralization of the power grid, not by digitization. If somehow we can’t keep the centralized grid running anymore, we will break it down, and bear the extra costs for that.
Also, the sequence of a catastrophe is almost never a riot. Where do people get the idea of riots? People just go and do the right thing.
Seriously, has none of the politicians ever thought about this?
The technicians did.
Where are the backups?
You mean generators? Lots of people have those.
Are we just going full “YOLO” on the reliance on the power grid?
I would understand this question if you lived in 1925, but by 2025 you should know the answer already. Are you so blind about everything that needs electricity that you think disaster would come from the lack of money?
Cash will always exist. Even though I pay cashless 99% of the time, there’s always that little 1% when having a bit of cash on you is useful. It just means any cash on me will last a long time before I even get around to spend it.
And why would there be riots? Spain had zero riots, people were calm from what I’ve seen.
Okay so. Say. There is 2 weeks without power, sudden and unannounced, unpredicted power outage. How will you get food and stuff?
So if people can’t get essential stuff, there would be fear, and with fear, riots are likely to happen. Doesn’t matter how “civilized” or “developed” a country is, everyone has their breaking point.
In that scenario most of the food has gone bad anyway and is stuck in distribution centres as the shops can’t send orders up through the supply chain.
Also, without power most places couldn’t take cash. Tills are computers that do all the maths so the 16 year old serving you doesn’t have to they also track inventory going out.
The cash that there is is stuck in banks because the banks have no way of knowing what money is yours as we haven’t had bank books for like 20 years already.
It’s called a natural disaster and we get along just fine. If the entire planet loses power, there’s nothing to be done, but even if an entire US state loses power, gas generators come online and trucks haul fuel in from long distances. It doesn’t take long for a grocery store or bank to open up with cash withdrawals again.
As if money would be people’s biggest concern of the power went out everywhere for two weeks.
This is silly. Absolute worst case, we go back to bartering for goods and services. There will never be a need to panic.
I mean there might be reason to panic and a fallback on the barter system, both.
2 weeks without power
How will you get food and stuff?
You go there where it is, and ask. If they trust you enough to pay it later, ok. Otherwise you beg. And beg more.
Fortunately this would never happen, for the reason you listed. Cash is king and always will be.
This happened in Ukraine when they were attacked with a cyberweapon (NotPetya) by Russia in 2017
If you want to know what happens when all of the computers (banks, bus pass scanners, grocery store cash registers, ATMs, etc) stop working, I highly recommend listening to this episode of Darknet Diaries
I know nothing of or even care about IT stuff but I fucking love this podcast.
even if you have cash, what you gonna use it for when tax registers are electronic ? nobody is going to sell anything
fun fact, businesses operate without power by using battery operated calculators and inventory pads.
every minute a business isn’t in operation is a cost to the business.
I worked at Super Walmart decades ago. power went out for the whole town. the main HV lines collapsed after a tornado.
mgmt marked all the ice cream down 80% and we were still checking customers out on generators.
reduce risk, increase profits, mitigate losses. the only bad opportunity is the one you ignore.
by god we sold almost every tub of ice cream in an hour.
this is kinda hilarious lol okey understood
Books has become e-books.
To some extent — but have you been to a hip bookstore recently? They exist, and are very much alive.
Debt and ledgers.
Anthropologist David Graeber made a compelling case that this was the system in many different societies and places before cash. There’s nothing stopping us from doing it again. His book talks extensively about how each society handled repayment, the role of violence, interest, social hierarchies, etc.
One huge condition will be: has your country invested enough in a super reliable infrastructure?
Spain wasn’t bad in this regard (like most western European countries) but that recent event was hardly foreseeable. And they forgot to prepare for the “black start”, which prolonged the problem.
In the future, the grids must become even more reliable and fault tolerant.
Some countries should better increase their invests by magnitudes.
Microgrids with solar panels on every residential home is key
It was probably the best case scenario. This happening outside of winter or a war was pretty lucky.
Now they get to learn and improve.
solar power and batteries exist too you know
ik that stuff in Spain happened, but if there were more batteries it might notve
Solar panels are enough for power during the day.
Cashless requires power all the way from PoS to wherever the servers live.Edit: see below
Not 100% true: I know some places in Norway that have unreliable internet connectivity. They have terminals in the store that will save your purchase and wire it to the bank when connection is restored. Of course, this means you can over-draw your card, but I’ve never heard of that being a big issue in those small places.
Interesting, TIL — thanks!
Also, I can tell you from personal experience, cards were working Monday during the blackout. Not on wireless machines obviously since we had no cellphone reception, but for example Supermarkets were letting you pay with a card.
Technically in countries with fiscal memory devices you can’t buy anything from store that have no power today becaue of taxes.
