Don’t wanna argue with the premises here. But isn’t Christianity also a bit stupid for praying towards the instrument that’s been used to torture and kill their leader.
Just imagine you are Jesus and come into a modern church. You’d run away screaming with all those crosses triggering your PTSD. And that’s before you’ve even heard of all the atrocities they’re doing there in your name.
Besides what everyone else said it used to be a fish, and the ChiRo (the one that looks like an X and a P) Symbol. It’s easy to see the evolution into the cross.
The core of Christianity is originally the redemption, not the threat that necessitates it and often is more prominent.
The cross is a symbol of the sacrifice made to redeem people from the threat of hell. More relevant here is that sin separates humans from God, and through that sacrifice, the connection is restored. It is a catalyst of redemption and reunion. In that sense, they don’t so much pray towards an implement of torture as an implement of liberation, salvation and mercy.
Given that those are hard things to put in a visual, tangible form and that humans tend to place a lot of value in visual, tangible representations, it’s basically the simplest symbol you could come up with as a nascent cult.
It’s not the only symbol, and particularly during the rise of the Roman church, you’ll note that icons of saints become very common too. Some places will even have the Crucifix feature the crucified Jesus as well, to drive home the point about sacrifice and gratitude.
Protestants later held that the worship of saints was tantamount to idolatry and did away with them again, leaving just the core of the message of redemption. There was in some places a conscious choice to pick the “empty” cross rather than the crucified saviour as a symbol that he is no longer dead.
All in all, given his divine wisdom and love for metaphors and similes, I’d think Jesus would understand the point of the cross…
…then proceed to trash the place out of rage over the waste of money and effort that went into gaudy churches and gold-embroidered robes instead of helping the sick and poor.
Totally. And it really makes sense when you think about it…
God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving and he created man in his own image… And then doomed them all to an eternity of suffering because… reasons.
God was known for being petty and jealous, so he forced humans to destroy their food to prove that they love him.
God, being all powerful, I guess changed his mind about wanting people to burn for eternity, so being the all-powerful, all-loving being that he is, he changed his mind and deleted hell so that all humans could enjoy eternity with him… LOL jk.
No, instead he split himself into another being and became a human with the sole purpose of being murdered in 30 years so that humans didn’t have to burn for eternity…? Actually, I kind of lose the thread at this point. It’s never been clear to me why an all-powerful god would need to create such a bizarre, convoluted, byzantine means for redemption when he could have just snapped his fingers and made it all go away.
But all of that makes sense when you think about it as just another sacrifice to prove to god that you love him, and our rudimentary understanding of symbolism is all we need to prove this. After all, there’s no need to read any other books, therefore this has to be the deepest, most profound thing ever written. I mean holy shit, Jesus is the “lamb of god” that needed to be sacrificed! Just like when we burned our food! Wow, talk about deep connections. No human could ever think up such an amazing story with such deep symbolism!
Not just their leader, early christians were violently prosecuted, they turned their symbol of oppression into the symbol of their faith in an ultimate act of defiance as well as love and forgiveness.
I’m not Christian but isn’t it just very emblematic of the Christian victim complex? Praying towards the instrument of your faith’s victimisation is sort of like taking the power back from that symbol and acknowledging the victimisation your belief system has gone through… As far as I can understand it at least 😂
As a Christian, I’ve always found that stupid, so I don’t do that and don’t attend churches that do. The second commandments says:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
I’m pretty sure a cross counts here. I also believe Jesus taught a higher law, meaning the 10 commandments are outdated, and the only thing Jesus said to do to remember him is breaking and sharing bread and sharing wine (Communion in many churches). That’s it, that and “feed my sheep” (teach and help others).
I don’t get where everyone is getting the “wear and rub a crucifix for luck” idea. A silent prayer should be a lot more effective than directly violating the second commandment.
I choose to remember Jesus’ life. His death was an event, his life was full of teaching and wisdom, so I focus on how he treated others instead of how others treated him.
You quote the third commandment but you believe they are outdated?
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.
I like your perspective and wish Christianity aligned more with your post than whatever it’s doing now.
I’m not Christian, but I have observed that the worship of the cross and Christ’s death is directly tied to the theological idea of salvation, especially with evangelicals. If his death is the single most important part of your faith, then the cross becomes a symbol and reminder that you’re saved and not going to hell. It was primed to become a symbol and eventually an idol.
I also think historically the cross as a symbol for Christianity comes from the Greek letter chi (x) in the spelling of Christ. “X-tians” was a shorthand form way before the “taking Christ out of Christmas” nonsense.
But to the original point of the Klan burning the cross: I’ve read that they argue that cross burning is a medieval European affirmation of faith, something that is doing double duty of arguing that it’s an expression of their faith and connecting them to their “racial” roots.
Yeah, I think modern Christianity has really lost the plot. The most important part of Jesus’ life is certainly debatable, but surely him rising again is more important than his death? So if we want a symbol to remember being saved, surely the empty tomb with the rock rolled away is the better symbol.
But the only symbol Christ recommended is the last supper. That is how we’re supposed to remember him, and that’s why we go to church.
And Jesus never said we’re saved just because be died, otherwise why would he go around forgiving people manually? Surely that wouldn’t matter if they’re going to get saved unconditionally anyway. No, we need to actually change ourselves to be in line with his teachings. Love others unconditionally, give to the poor, and multiply the gifts God gave you for the benefit of others.
but surely him rising again is more important than his death?
Depends on how fixated a faith is on the “sacrifice of the Lamb.” There’s one interpretation that Jesus’ suffering and death is what appeased God and fulfilled the prophecy and ended the law of Moses. If you’re the kind of person that buys into God being the sort of deity that wants to kill himself in order to satisfy his own bloodlust, then yeah, I could see Christ’s death being the more important part.
Surely the resurrection should be emphasized as the result, but the death is what God demanded to atone for the sins of the world. The resurrection was just proof that he held up his end of the bargain.
I think that the Christ story suffers from the audience knowing details about the story that the characters don’t to the point that the big miracle at the end falls flat. Everyone just ends up focusing on the mechanics of Christs death rather than its purpose.
There’s one interpretation that Jesus’ suffering and death is what appeased God and fulfilled the prophecy and ended the law of Moses.
I agree with that (with caveats), but I still don’t see how that impacts the average Christian. How salvation is possible isn’t really important, the important thing is what we need to do.
If all we need to do is recognize Jesus, what’s the point of his ministry? Surely it all wasn’t strictly necessary to be bait the Jewish people into killing him.
Everyone just ends up focusing on the mechanics of Christs death rather than its purpose.
Exactly. It’s certainly important, but Jesus spent years teaching and setting an example and only a few days dying and resurrecting. That needed to happen, but it doesn’t replace everything else he told us to do.
If we claim to follow Jesus but fall to live the second commandment he gave (love others as ourselves), surely we’ll have issues getting to heaven. Likewise, if someone who has never heard of Jesus follows his commandments anyway by living another philosophy, surely they’ll be better off, no?
It’s all BS and they’ve completely missed the plot. Claiming to be saved just because of something Jesus did is the other side of the coin from the Pharisees, who claimed to be saved because they followed the letter of the law. It takes a little more effort than singing along at church…
it makes more sense when Christians were a persecuted minority, executed on sight by the Roman empire. You’re sharing in a symbol of sacrifice that could itself get you killed.
Don’t wanna argue with the premises here. But isn’t Christianity also a bit stupid for praying towards the instrument that’s been used to torture and kill their leader.
Just imagine you are Jesus and come into a modern church. You’d run away screaming with all those crosses triggering your PTSD. And that’s before you’ve even heard of all the atrocities they’re doing there in your name.
Besides what everyone else said it used to be a fish, and the ChiRo (the one that looks like an X and a P) Symbol. It’s easy to see the evolution into the cross.
The core of Christianity is originally the redemption, not the threat that necessitates it and often is more prominent.
The cross is a symbol of the sacrifice made to redeem people from the threat of hell. More relevant here is that sin separates humans from God, and through that sacrifice, the connection is restored. It is a catalyst of redemption and reunion. In that sense, they don’t so much pray towards an implement of torture as an implement of liberation, salvation and mercy.
Given that those are hard things to put in a visual, tangible form and that humans tend to place a lot of value in visual, tangible representations, it’s basically the simplest symbol you could come up with as a nascent cult.
It’s not the only symbol, and particularly during the rise of the Roman church, you’ll note that icons of saints become very common too. Some places will even have the Crucifix feature the crucified Jesus as well, to drive home the point about sacrifice and gratitude.
Protestants later held that the worship of saints was tantamount to idolatry and did away with them again, leaving just the core of the message of redemption. There was in some places a conscious choice to pick the “empty” cross rather than the crucified saviour as a symbol that he is no longer dead.
All in all, given his divine wisdom and love for metaphors and similes, I’d think Jesus would understand the point of the cross…
…then proceed to trash the place out of rage over the waste of money and effort that went into gaudy churches and gold-embroidered robes instead of helping the sick and poor.
Sacrifice is a big thing in Christianity, the cross is the symbol of the biggest sacrifice that God did for us, on Christianity canon.
Totally. And it really makes sense when you think about it…
God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving and he created man in his own image… And then doomed them all to an eternity of suffering because… reasons.
God was known for being petty and jealous, so he forced humans to destroy their food to prove that they love him.
God, being all powerful, I guess changed his mind about wanting people to burn for eternity, so being the all-powerful, all-loving being that he is, he changed his mind and deleted hell so that all humans could enjoy eternity with him… LOL jk.
No, instead he split himself into another being and became a human with the sole purpose of being murdered in 30 years so that humans didn’t have to burn for eternity…? Actually, I kind of lose the thread at this point. It’s never been clear to me why an all-powerful god would need to create such a bizarre, convoluted, byzantine means for redemption when he could have just snapped his fingers and made it all go away.
But all of that makes sense when you think about it as just another sacrifice to prove to god that you love him, and our rudimentary understanding of symbolism is all we need to prove this. After all, there’s no need to read any other books, therefore this has to be the deepest, most profound thing ever written. I mean holy shit, Jesus is the “lamb of god” that needed to be sacrificed! Just like when we burned our food! Wow, talk about deep connections. No human could ever think up such an amazing story with such deep symbolism!
Anyway… I lost my train of thought.
You might enjoy reading about Gnosticism, where the world was created by a dopey lesser god, and that’s why there is suffering.
Not just their leader, early christians were violently prosecuted, they turned their symbol of oppression into the symbol of their faith in an ultimate act of defiance as well as love and forgiveness.
I’m not Christian but isn’t it just very emblematic of the Christian victim complex? Praying towards the instrument of your faith’s victimisation is sort of like taking the power back from that symbol and acknowledging the victimisation your belief system has gone through… As far as I can understand it at least 😂
I honestly don’t think most Christians even think this deeply about their own faith.
As a Christian, I’ve always found that stupid, so I don’t do that and don’t attend churches that do. The second commandments says:
I’m pretty sure a cross counts here. I also believe Jesus taught a higher law, meaning the 10 commandments are outdated, and the only thing Jesus said to do to remember him is breaking and sharing bread and sharing wine (Communion in many churches). That’s it, that and “feed my sheep” (teach and help others).
I don’t get where everyone is getting the “wear and rub a crucifix for luck” idea. A silent prayer should be a lot more effective than directly violating the second commandment.
I choose to remember Jesus’ life. His death was an event, his life was full of teaching and wisdom, so I focus on how he treated others instead of how others treated him.
You quote the third commandment but you believe they are outdated?
Even letters are images…
Yes. What’s the problem?
The 10 commandments are still instructional, even if I the Law of Moses has been fulfilled. Matthew 5:17:
They’re still useful, but not they’re outdated, and they’re covered by the new law, which Jesus summarized as “love god and love your neighbor.”
Sure. Don’t pray to the Bible or any other physical creation. Pray to God.
I like your perspective and wish Christianity aligned more with your post than whatever it’s doing now.
I’m not Christian, but I have observed that the worship of the cross and Christ’s death is directly tied to the theological idea of salvation, especially with evangelicals. If his death is the single most important part of your faith, then the cross becomes a symbol and reminder that you’re saved and not going to hell. It was primed to become a symbol and eventually an idol.
I also think historically the cross as a symbol for Christianity comes from the Greek letter chi (x) in the spelling of Christ. “X-tians” was a shorthand form way before the “taking Christ out of Christmas” nonsense.
But to the original point of the Klan burning the cross: I’ve read that they argue that cross burning is a medieval European affirmation of faith, something that is doing double duty of arguing that it’s an expression of their faith and connecting them to their “racial” roots.
Yeah, I think modern Christianity has really lost the plot. The most important part of Jesus’ life is certainly debatable, but surely him rising again is more important than his death? So if we want a symbol to remember being saved, surely the empty tomb with the rock rolled away is the better symbol.
But the only symbol Christ recommended is the last supper. That is how we’re supposed to remember him, and that’s why we go to church.
And Jesus never said we’re saved just because be died, otherwise why would he go around forgiving people manually? Surely that wouldn’t matter if they’re going to get saved unconditionally anyway. No, we need to actually change ourselves to be in line with his teachings. Love others unconditionally, give to the poor, and multiply the gifts God gave you for the benefit of others.
Depends on how fixated a faith is on the “sacrifice of the Lamb.” There’s one interpretation that Jesus’ suffering and death is what appeased God and fulfilled the prophecy and ended the law of Moses. If you’re the kind of person that buys into God being the sort of deity that wants to kill himself in order to satisfy his own bloodlust, then yeah, I could see Christ’s death being the more important part.
Surely the resurrection should be emphasized as the result, but the death is what God demanded to atone for the sins of the world. The resurrection was just proof that he held up his end of the bargain.
I think that the Christ story suffers from the audience knowing details about the story that the characters don’t to the point that the big miracle at the end falls flat. Everyone just ends up focusing on the mechanics of Christs death rather than its purpose.
I agree with that (with caveats), but I still don’t see how that impacts the average Christian. How salvation is possible isn’t really important, the important thing is what we need to do.
If all we need to do is recognize Jesus, what’s the point of his ministry? Surely it all wasn’t strictly necessary to be bait the Jewish people into killing him.
Exactly. It’s certainly important, but Jesus spent years teaching and setting an example and only a few days dying and resurrecting. That needed to happen, but it doesn’t replace everything else he told us to do.
If we claim to follow Jesus but fall to live the second commandment he gave (love others as ourselves), surely we’ll have issues getting to heaven. Likewise, if someone who has never heard of Jesus follows his commandments anyway by living another philosophy, surely they’ll be better off, no?
It’s all BS and they’ve completely missed the plot. Claiming to be saved just because of something Jesus did is the other side of the coin from the Pharisees, who claimed to be saved because they followed the letter of the law. It takes a little more effort than singing along at church…
I feel like this was a George Carlin bit or something…
it makes more sense when Christians were a persecuted minority, executed on sight by the Roman empire. You’re sharing in a symbol of sacrifice that could itself get you killed.
But that was 1500 years ago.