Hey Gaza / Free Palestine guys,
I’m pissed about the Kamala loss but that’s not important right now. I need to know what media you were using.
Where did Free Palestine/ Gaza memes and discussions start?
I’m worried that the discussion is a right wing disinformation campaign designed to make us tear each other apart. I cannot find any legitimate politician (even far left ones like Bernie Sanders, AOC, etc. etc) that would have pushed the message of ‘Joe Biden / Kamala is just as bad as Trump on the issue of Gaza’.
The only ones who would push that message are right wing trolls who try to separate us. So now I want to track down and confirm my suspicions. Who meme’d this? Where did you hear it? Was it Twitter? TikTok? Reddit? Facebook? Instagram?
First, I want to point out a few things.
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Third Party voters, ie the Greens and PSL, swung 0 elections. This is a hard truth to look at for Democrats, ultimately it is unlikely that the genocide in Palestine made a large difference in the Harris campaign.
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I would not consider Bernie or AOC to be “far left,” they are moderated by European standards. If you mean within the US government, then that makes more sense, but the US is an outlier globally with how right-wing it is on average, so that bit confused me.
To answer your question about Palestinian liberation, it began when Palestine was first being colonized, back in the early 20th century. Leftists all over have historically supported Palestinian Liberation this entire time, it is only as salient of an issue now because we can watch it on Social Media.
A book titled The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, documenting the genocide in Palestine since the mid 20th century in detail, came out in 2006. This has radicalized a lot of the western left in the modern era, but this is by no means the first time.
The Marxist-Leninist group Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine was formed in 1967, and was supported by the USSR. Incidentally, they called for a boycott of the Democrats and Republicans in the 2024 General Election (link to a translation from Arabic). They have been calling for a secular, single democratic Palestinian state to be occupied by former-Israelis and Palestinians alike, with full equality between them. This has been elaborated on in their 1969 book Strategy for the Liberation of Palestine.
Even then, the PFLP is just one group in Palestine, Palestinians and Leftists abroad have opposed it since the beginning. Albert Einstein wrote a letter to the New York Times in 1948 warning of fascist elements within the newly created state of Israel, and their treatment of Palestinian villiagers.
The fundamental difference that you are seeing is that the far-left has always opposed the Palestinian genocide, be they Communists, Anarchists, even moderates like Social Democrats. The US government, however, has strong economic ties to Israel, as they help assert power in the region, which allows the US to cement the Petro-Dollar as the global main currency. This means that within the US government, politicians are incentivized to minimize the appearance of genocide.
Free Palestine has been a movement for a century, it is only a more salient issue because the genocide has escalated in the last year and it is in full-view on social media.
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There were undoubtedly some right wing/pro-Russia agitators trying to push the message that they’re “just as bad” and likely some genuine believers saying this too, but the vast majority were not saying this. Most people opposed to Harris/Biden on this issue were simply opposed to the wholesale murder of innocents, and understood that Trump would be worse (e.g. the uncommitted movement said this explicitly).
From my perspective what was much more common was the use of this exact line of reasoning (like your post) to ignore/sideline people with legitimate humanitarian and political concerns. I can speak for myself: I oppose what I see as a genocide and America’s complicity in it chills me to my core. I am not stupid enough to think Trump is better or even the same, and from the others I saw making this argument on Lemmy at least, they didn’t seem to think that either.
In fact to the extent I tried to influence others it was to push the democrats to be better and hopefully actually win the election.
That didn’t stop the accusations, though. I often explicitly wrote that Trump is worse and advocated voting dem, but it didn’t make a difference. In fact just before and after the election, one user was convinced I just hated the democrats and was trying to suppress the vote.
I’m worried that the discussion is a right wing disinformation campaign designed to make us tear each other apart. I cannot find any legitimate politician (even far left ones like Bernie Sanders, AOC, etc. etc) that would have pushed the message of ‘Joe Biden / Kamala is just as bad as Trump on the issue of Gaza’.
So 1) no legitimate politician pushed this message because it is a straw man. I agree with Bernie and AOC.
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I would argue the disinformation campaign was mainly running in the other direction. Apologists for the democrats’ stance on this acted as though everyone who criticised the democrats was in fact using the straw man argument, and often implied it was a right wing/Russian misinformation campaign.
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The effectiveness of any genuine right wing agitators on this is dependent on the fact that people like me exist who have a genuinely different position on this than the dems. They stoke the division and let us fight it out. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t push back on any claims that “they’re the same” and it doesn’t mean I should avoid voicing my opposition to genocide. What it means is, unless I respect that you are just opposed to false claims (“they’re the same”) and you respect that I am simply opposed to the killing of children (And not singing from Putin’s hymn sheet), then we will tear each other apart.
Who meme’d this? Where did you hear it? Was it Twitter? TikTok? Reddit? Facebook? Instagram?
It was “memed” on the fucking news, for over a year now. It is not a meme, it is the reality we’ve all been living in which two groups of dishonest actors wanted to influence. The right/agitator influence of “they’re just as bad” and the left/democrat influence of “these people support Trump/work for Putin.” The dems wanted the issue buried so they didn’t have to focus on what was clearly their weakest area. Because they have supported the killing and deep down, I believe they understand that this is morally unconscionable.
Anyway, just my two cents. If you take a step back from the election and just look at this as a disconnected political issue I would hope that we actually pretty much agree. So why would people like me be the enemy?
I appreciate the viewpoint.
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It came from Israel’s actual actions. They’re undergoing an extermination campaign in Northen Gaza, banned UNRWA which is the only reason Palestinians have not died of Starvation, executed the young, old, sick, weak, injured and just about everyone else. They’ve even just passed a law that would give them legal authority to deport Palestinians that have “terrorist relations”, and we all know how even babies are considered to be Hamas by the IDF. And I havent even touched on the daily killings of civilians. We have a list of confirmed kills of over 14,000 babies aged less than 1 year old. This, along with the war on Lebanon and the regional attacks, is all done with the full support and funding of the current administration. Biden/Harris being the same as Trump on this topic is not a meme, it’s the horrible truth. And all the Arabs that were kicking and screaming about this for the past 13 months were not only ignored, but also actively silenced by the Democrats.
Found one.
Found one what?
One other prolific poster said he was American and was aggressive to the point of psychosis about Kamala and Trump being the same on Gaza, then used non-American numbering style, dots instead of commas I think, like $5.000.000 for 5 million, and then pretended not to understand the question when people asked him about it.
The other day there were a couple of people in my comments insisting that anarchists shouldn’t vote in this election, but with weird inconsistencies in whether they were claiming to be American or British. And someone told me that a bunch of users I was arguing with about this topic all suddenly got deleted right after the election.
There were a few more times when their masks slipped off, that’s just what comes to mind right now.
I’m not American. I’m Canadian actually. I was just answering OPs question though. I wasn’t intending to make any bad faith arguments or mislead anyone so I’m sorry if I did that.
That’s fair, but you weren’t answering OP’s question.
You acted as if OP had asked if Israel was committing a monstrous crime, or whether Biden and Harris were linked to that. They absolutely are, and you can draw a very direct line from Biden to that, although a lot less so from Harris.
OP’s question was how the absolutely insane idea that a good thing to do for the Arabs would be to let Trump get elected came from. You seem like you’re echoing that idea, right at the very end, and I invite you to watch things get infinitely worse for all Israel’s victims, starting immediately, if you still think that.
You didn’t explain anything about how that point of view, which has now come to its ugly conclusion and will result in a quick acceleration of the genocide already in progress, might have spread so widely on social media, when if looked at from first principles it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Mostly you spent a long time saying Israel is killing on an industrial scale and it’s wrong. We all think that, I think. You don’t need to tell us.
Actually, even that wasn’t what OP asked. They asked where each commenter first saw this type of thing on social media, to get some data about how it might have gotten into the public consciousness. But that second-to-last question is a lot more similar to what OP asked than what you said.
My comment explained why it wasn’t just a meme, but rather a stark and real comparison. It was a direct answer to the question.
The fact of the matter is that Biden has emboldened Israel enough where they are actively performing an extermination campaign in Gaza, invading Lebanon and the West Bank, and escalating to a regional war with Iran. All of this could have been stopped with a single phone call from Biden at any point in the past 13 months. This is why a genocide under the Trump administration is seems as more or less the same thing. Because it’s happening as we speak, and Biden is doing nothing to stop or slow them down.
It’s not that Arabs voted overwhelmingly in favor of Trump, they just refused to vote for Democrats on principle. Turns out arming a nation that is actively engaged with the genocide of Arabs, silencing them when speaking up, and staunchly defending said country is something that turned Arabs off from voting for the Democrats again.
The fact of the matter is that Biden has emboldened Israel enough where they are actively performing an extermination campaign in Gaza, invading Lebanon and the West Bank, and escalating to a regional war with Iran.
True.
All of this could have been stopped with a single phone call from Biden at any point in the past 13 months.
False. He had many phone calls. They didn’t help.
An active genocide in Gaza and the possibility of an escalating regional war was one of the most massive threats to Biden’s reelection prospects. Look what happened.
If he could have ended it with one phone call, just cancelled the whole operation, he would have. Are you trying to tell me that he just loves dead Palestinians and war in the Middle East so much that he wanted the whole thing to happen even though it was absolute kryptonite to his own and his party’s domestic political prospects, in addition to being a historic crime against humanity, just because?
This is why a genocide under the Trump administration is seems as more or less the same thing.
Absolutely false. Wait and see, and observe the difference. Not that it wasn’t already a stain on humanity, but it’s now going to get substantially worse.
My guess is that by the end of Trump’s term, all of Gaza will be annexed to Israel, and all the Palestinians that were there will be exiled or dead. None of this 35,000 numbers anymore, with aid coming in sometimes. And, several other Gaza-like situations will have come up all over the world, with Trump actively pushing them forward instead of just handing over weapons to the one who wants to be doing them.
Because it’s happening as we speak, and Biden is doing nothing to stop or slow them down.
False. See above.Edit: You know what? This one is true, I guess. He’s “trying” but not enough to accomplish much of anything. My mental model is that he’s stuck between losing support if he sends weapons, and losing support from the majority of Americans that are pro-Israel, if he doesn’t. But yes, the level of resistance he’s offering isn’t stopping it.
The difference is, Trump will hit the gas, and support Netanyahu no matter how many Arabs he kills, I think. Also he’ll start mistreating Arabs inside the US, and destroy Palestinian aid agencies, as he did during his first term. He really doesn’t like Arabs.
It’s not that Arabs voted overwhelmingly in favor of Trump, they just refused to vote for Democrats on principle.
True.
Turns out arming a nation that is actively engaged with the genocide of Arabs, silencing them when speaking up, and staunchly defending said country is something that turned Arabs off from voting for the Democrats again.
Absolutely true.
I’m not trying to have any kind of hostile interaction with you. I feel bad about doing so and I hear @dragontamer@lemmy.world about just wanting to learn about the situation without needing people to fight in the comments. Just saying how I see it point by point through your narrative. The whole element of it that is presupposing that Biden wanted all of this to happen, or that Trump won’t cause an absolutely insane acceleration of the slaughter operation, is what’s making me mad about it.
Explains why I see you so often on lemmy.ca !
Btw, here’s an example of someone who endorsed orange voldemort because of Gaza: Democratic Hamtramck Mayor Amer Ghalib. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/14/hamtramck-donald-trump-arab-american-muslim
Majority of Arabs were either voting for Trump, 3rd party, or not voting as a “fuck you” to the Democrats. I know some actually liked Trump but keep in mind that the Arabs were a big reason Biden won Michigan in 2020. A lot of Arabs hate Trump.
Yeah, this is the one thing I wasn’t sure Harris was doing right. And based on what’s coming out now with the numbers on margin of the swing states and how many Arab voters switched, it seems like this might have been the sole issue that cost Harris the White House.
For my part, I thought she should have promised to use executive action to declare a national referendum on the issue once she was elected President, and tell the Jewish bloc that she’d always continue supporting Israel’s right to defending itself while telling the Arab voters that she’d use the referendum results to justify putting an end to the war in Gaza by any means necessary and justified and approved in the referendum itself.
I appreciate what you are trying to do but I’m not planning on being combative about this.
My mental model is that the majority of people having this viewpoint were caught up in a disinformation campaign tailor made for their viewpoints.
The election is over, it’s not helpful to try to fight the viewpoint anymore. But it’s more important from a media strategy to TRACK where this came from.
I hear you. There are certain types of argumentation that I see on Lemmy over and over again, and almost always leading towards a conclusion about not voting for Democrats, to the point that I react with a decent amount of hostility to them.
Hey thanks a lot for coming by!
I appreciate the viewpoint. But I’m curious about what media or social media you use.
Do you use Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, Lemmy, Mastodon, Discord, Telegram or… Anything else?
No problem at all, thanks for actually acknowledging it.
And I only really use Lemmy. I occasionally browse Imgur, but thats mainly for memes. I don’t use any of the big social media sites, I haven’t in over 10 years. I haven’t touched Reddit in several years at this point either.
Discussions about Palestinian liberation and ending US Support of Israel are longstanding for much more than the past year. However it’s prominence, and the memes too, gained significant traction in the past year because Israel became fully engaged in the genocide of Gaza, expanding into the West Bank and also Lebanon. This genocide has been funded with the unconditional military aid of the United States, as well as defense on the international stage.
Anti-genocide sentiments are not any right-wing disinformation campaign. These are voters who want an alternative to funding genocide, which is still happening under the current administration.
The right-wing disinformation campaign is that Trump is the dove candidate. This was the case in 2016 too, as a way to paint Hillary as a warmonger (She was, but of course so is Trump). This is exactly the reason why Trump spoke very little about Israel/Gaza for most of the campaign, only with comments like that he’ll “end the wars” without details.
This kind of disinformation campaign, painting Trump as a Dove, is only possible because of the foreign policy of Biden on Israel and Harris’ failure to break from that policy. Ending the war with a permanent ceasefire is overwhelmingly popular, an arms embargo is also very popular. These are also the correct actions under both the US Leahy Law and international humanitarian law.
Polling has indicated for months that Harris would gain. significant votes in swing states and nationally. The decision by the Harris campaign to ignore these voters / take them for granted was a calculated decision. This was a choice the campaign made.
This left people with the genocide as their main issue with the following choices: back Harris and hope that she will part from Biden or at least be persuaded by public pressure despite the lack of separation from the current Biden Administration on the issue, protest vote with a 3rd party, or hope that just maybe trump will actually bring a ceasefire unlike the current administration.
As someone who’s not directly affected, it’s easy to choose option 1. I voted for Harris and told others to vote Harris too, despite the ongoing military support for the genocide. However, this becomes a much more unclear and difficult choice for those who are directly affected. It’s hard to make the rational decision to vote for Harris when not only your loved ones have been killed by Israel with US weapons, but also the lack of empathy and consideration of the Harris campaign throughout the genocide. Palestinian Americans were denied a voice at the DNC. Instead what they heard was steadfast support of Israel and rhetoric about having the most lethal Military. That continued throughout the campaign. Seeing half of the support from Arab and Muslim Americans compared to 2020 isn’t a surprise when this is the reality they have experienced from the campaign.
I also want to emphasize that anti-genocide sentiment is not only an issue of Arab and Muslim Americans. Half of the Jewish community also wants a permanent ceasefire too. Most people do.
Many people online, including Lemmy, are acting reactionary on this and want to place the blame on these voters. I understand where it’s coming from. People are angry and terrified of another Trump Administration, and rightfully so. But this blame is misplaced, it’s the Biden/Harris 2024 campaign that made the decision to run their campaign like this, and it was a failed strategy. It was also much more than just this issue that reduced voter turnout. 20 million less people voted for Democrats this election. Anti-genocide protest votes are only a small fraction of that. They were also completely up for grabs, all it took was rhetoric about support for an arms embargo.
The campaign made many many mistakes by running to the right at the expense of their base, by not running on progressive policies that are popular with both Democratic and Republican voters. This is ultimately a problem of neoliberalism, which works at the behest of capital interests and against the interests of the working class.
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Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
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In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
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- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
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Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
Addendum: it was clearly a Kamala strategy to TikTok meme to spread herself. At some point, the Kamala memes stopped and fucked us over.
All TikTok needed to do was change it’s algorithm at inappropriate times and bam we are fucked. How many pro Kamala memes did you see in the last week’s before the election?
Because I don’t remember any coconut trees in the last weeks. The information fountain got shut off and fucked us. We need to know what happened so we are ready for next time.
We are looking at a media deficit so huge that 'Did Joe Biden drop out of the election’s was Googles trending search. I want to know why.
Israel-adjacent conspiracy theories are quite common. They usually come from the far right, but the far left also participated this time around. The “Biden and Harris explicitly endorse the extermination of 2+ Million Palestinians” narrative is just another one. Like any good conspiracy theory, there are lots of half-truths that help prop it up, but given what was actually at stake in this election it doesn’t serve to actually help solve anything. The only actual effect this conspiracy had was to “punish Democrats” for running a bad campaign, which has absolutely jack shit to do with preventing genocide in Palestine, especially since we know that Trump, the only other viable candidate, is demonstrably on Israel’s side.
If you want to look anywhere, look at the users on far-left fringe websites that engage in deliberate misinformation campaigns, and the small time politicians and activists like Kshama Sawant that actively campaigned against Harris with the explicit goal of punishing Democrats with a Trump win.
If you want to look anywhere, look at the users on far-left fringe websites that engage in deliberate misinformation campaigns
It’s not the fringe websites I’m concerned about. I’m talking about the big payouts: Twitter, Gamma ebook, TikTok and Instagram.
Fringe websites are where they test ideas and arguments. When they honed the correct message they likely migrate to spreading that the arguments of division to the mainstream sites. Possibly (in the case of Twitter and TikTok) with algorithmic boosts to the arguments.
