It quite literally is, unless you think there’s no difference between who wins in this election, in which case I would prefer you say it and save us all the time.
Ultimately, there’s no difference who wins this election. You are still going inexorably to move towards fascism and genocide, as we’ve seen in all the past elections.
Preventing something from happening in an immediate sense is still preventing it from happening,
You’re not. You’re just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say “well, better than bullets at least.”
… all the effort we put into thinking and talking about voting?
If all the dedicated people doing all the voting prep work did the direct action work, it would have improved people’s lives and you would have converted them to direct action as well. but since voting doesn’t do shit, nobody gives a shit.
Is it your opinion that we are more fascist now than we were 50 years ago, then? Or 100 years ago?
More. In fact, I think you’re one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.
Buying time give the potential to do something with the time bought. Not buying time doesn’t magic into existence extra options; not buying time only reduces your options.
You won’t though, because your praxis is conditioning people to think voting is the only thing that matters, since everyone is putting so much effort all the time convincing people how important it is to vote for the next thing that’s just around the corner. You don’t buy time. You just hasten fascism by not doing direct action and by putting all your energy into talking about how important voting is and begging politicians with letters.
So you do think that there’s no difference in who wins the election, and this whole conversation is pointless?
Ultimately there’s no difference for your society no. You’ll still move towards fascism and continue the genocide.
Ultimately, there’s no difference who wins this election.
Oh, cool, I’ll remember this if Trump wins and we’re in line for the camps together. “Ha ha, this is just like it was in the good old days, under those damn Democrats, right?”
You’re not. You’re just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say “well, better than bullets at least.”
Okay. Let’s go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?
More. In fact, I think you’re one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.
You think… the US… is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.
Oh, cool, I’ll remember this if Trump wins and we’re in line for the camps together.
You should probably resist that with something direct. Maybe some action.
Okay. Let’s go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?
None so long as you keep giving thumbs up for the guy stabbing you because they’re not using a .50 cal.
You think… the US… is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.
Ye. They were bigoted as fuck, sure. But they were not actively, blatantly as fascist as they are now.
My guy, I’m a fucking near-sighted cripple with a history of depression and suicide attempts. I’m not going to overwhelm any government goons with my elite hand-to-hand skills, trusting me with a gun in the long term will likely end up with my own brains splattered on the walls, and I’m not going to outshoot anyone when I’m recruited for the anarchist militia.
Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s erecting death camps might be a good idea?
None so long as you keep giving thumbs up for the guy stabbing you because they’re not using a .50 cal.
So which kills you faster? Being stabbed repeatedly, or being shot with a .50 cal repeatedly?
You’re continuously avoiding this because you know damn well that “Killing yourself faster” IS less desirable than “Killing yourself slower”, even using the assumptions in your own argument.
Ye. They were bigoted as fuck, sure. But they were not actively, blatantly as fascist as they are now.
Holy fuck. Jesus H. Christ. Do you have any idea just how much more authoritarian the US was in years past!?
My guy, I’m a fucking near-sighted cripple with a history of depression and suicide attempts. I’m not going to overwhelm any government goons with my elite hand-to-hand skills, trusting me with a gun in the long term will likely end up with my own brains splattered on the walls, and I’m not going to outshoot anyone when I’m recruited for the anarchist militia.
There’s plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesn’t mean “take a rifle and fight”. It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.
If you wait until you’re led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then it’s (probably) too late.
Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s erecting death camps might be a good idea?
The only thing that will prevent that is knowing people will actively resist that.
4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: “Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s conducting genocide might be a good idea?”
And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years you’ll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knows…
You’re continuously avoiding this because you know damn well that “Killing yourself faster” IS less desirable than “Killing yourself slower”, even using the assumptions in your own argument.
Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going “But if I don’t choose the knife, they might pull out a gun.” Instead of asking yourself “why the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killer”. Voting for the tools of your destruction is you accepting that your killer has your support to keep killing you.
Holy fuck. Jesus H. Christ. Do you have any idea just how much more authoritarian the US was in years past!?
Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasn’t actively fascist.
Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when you’re personally being led to the pit?
There’s plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesn’t mean “take a rifle and fight”. It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.
When we’re at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, I’m pretty sure that ‘supporting my fellow humans’ isn’t what’s going to keep me out of the camps.
If you wait until you’re led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then it’s (probably) too late.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently ‘pure’ in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: “Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s conducting genocide might be a good idea?”
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and it’s even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
The state hasn’t ‘fallen’ to this point. That we’re even having this discussion on the national stage is a sign of the changing times, sad as that is.
And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years you’ll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knows…
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed we’re descending into fascism from, right?
Holy shit, you have to be at least near my age. You can’t possibly confuse the state of our youth with conditions now.
Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going “But if I don’t choose the knife, they might pull out a gun.” Instead of asking yourself “why the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killer”.
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasn’t actively fascist.
…
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more ‘fascist’, in your view, back then?
Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when you’re personally being led to the pit?
My guy, I’m entirely in support of people forming orgs for voluntary association and organization outside of state power. But you also have to reckon with the fact that state power is immense currently, that non-state actors are not in a strong position currently, and that state power has the capacity to become much more repressive than it is currently.
My message is not “Vote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actions”. My message is “For fuck’s sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONE”
You want to talk long-term plans? I’m game. You want to talk creating counterbalances to state power through trade unions, syndicates, communes, self-defense organizations? I’m game to talk. But none of that contradicts “Do not let those who want the state to become WORSE into power” or “Fascism is BAD for organizing”.
When we’re at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, I’m pretty sure that ‘supporting my fellow humans’ isn’t what’s going to keep me out of the camps.
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently ‘pure’ in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
I ain’t ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesn’t matter how many “levels of power” they hold when guillotines are being erected.
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and it’s even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed we’re descending into fascism from, right?
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights? Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? It’s funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
You’re not stopping the killer though. You’re just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more ‘fascist’, in your view, back then?
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
My message is not “Vote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actions”. My message is “For fuck’s sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONE”
You didn’t answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didn’t work? Only just before the firing squad?
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
Cool, I have a week and a half before the election. What direct action can I take to keep myself out of the camps, since voting is no longer pure enough for my high-minded ideology?
I ain’t ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesn’t matter how many “levels of power” they hold when guillotines are being erected.
…
Do you remember how the guillotines were erected?
Do you think they were just magicked into existence?
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights?
You would think this would be a point in favor of not letting the state fall into fascism, even considering that Weimar Germany was far from trans-friendly and banned trans-related materials from the Institute for Sexual Science from being distributed.
Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? It’s funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
Again, this would seem like a really good reason to not allow fascism to take over the state.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
What was the plausible path away from this with a rabidly pro-Israel US public, again?
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
Nixon resigned only after his own party told him the political fallout would be too great for them to bother backing him.
Are we really going on the position that Nixon wasn’t fascist as fuck? I’d like to be clear on the matter, since you haven’t specified any actual issues.
You’re not stopping the killer though. You’re just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
Yes, which buys me more time to act against him.
It takes next to nothing to ensure the killer uses the knife instead of the gun. Yet you insist that the only moral option is to let the killer choose his own weapon, and then nobly martyr yourself on the .50 cal and call it resistance.
You didn’t answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didn’t work? Only just before the firing squad?
What criteria are you putting here for voting not working? As I’ve already outlined that fascism will come quicker without participation of left-elements in voting, and your only response has been “Yes, well, you’re still dying slowly”, I’m not really sure you’re ‘getting’ what ‘buying time’ means.
Cool, I have a week and a half before the election. What direct action can I take to keep myself out of the camps, since voting is no longer pure enough for my high-minded ideology?
You think the camps are opening straight after the election? Come on, this takes time.
As for action, anything which is available to you. Even providing sysadmin support for orgs would be something one can do.
Do you remember how the guillotines were erected?
Do you think they were just magicked into existence?
Not quite sure what point you’re trying to make against my analogy here.
You would think this would be a point in favor of not letting the state fall into fascism, even considering that Weimar Germany was far from trans-friendly and banned trans-related materials from the Institute for Sexual Science from being distributed.
The point I am making is that there’s always progress and reaction growing together in capitalism due to the increasing inequality. The fact that progress is happening doesn’t mean the society isn’t growing more and more fascist.
What was the plausible path away from this with a rabidly pro-Israel US public, again?
What does that have to do with the point I was making?
Again, this would seem like a really good reason to not allow fascism to take over the state.
You realize those gay rights came from below against the wishes of then, state? Much like the gay and civil rights came from below in the USA against the wishes of the state and capital? Funny how only direct action keeps getting the goods, innit?
Nixon resigned only after his own party told him the political fallout would be too great for them to bother backing him.
Are we really going on the position that Nixon wasn’t fascist as fuck? I’d like to be clear on the matter, since you haven’t specified any actual issues.
It doesn’t matter if Nixon would love to be a dictator. It matters if society was ready to accept fascism, which USA wasn’t back then, but is now.
Yes, which buys me more time to act against him.
It also legitimizes your stabbing, since you voted for it. So why would anyone help you stop it. And anyway, you don’t have any plan to stop it.
It takes next to nothing to ensure the killer uses the knife instead of the gun. Yet you insist that the only moral option is to let the killer choose his own weapon, and then nobly martyr yourself on the .50 cal and call it resistance.
One has to ask themselves, why would the killer actually give you a choice in the matter. What is the benefit to the killer to killing you slowly. This is the question you don’t want to face.
What criteria are you putting here for voting not working?
Is your society doing genocide when it wasn’t before? Is your society on the threshold of masks-off fascism when it wasn’t before? Is inequality increasing or decreasing? Are working class people’s lives improving or not? You know the answers to all these, but you choose to limit yourself in thinking that things were somehow improving because some things were getting better.
Ultimately, there’s no difference who wins this election. You are still going inexorably to move towards fascism and genocide, as we’ve seen in all the past elections.
You’re not. You’re just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say “well, better than bullets at least.”
If all the dedicated people doing all the voting prep work did the direct action work, it would have improved people’s lives and you would have converted them to direct action as well. but since voting doesn’t do shit, nobody gives a shit.
More. In fact, I think you’re one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.
You won’t though, because your praxis is conditioning people to think voting is the only thing that matters, since everyone is putting so much effort all the time convincing people how important it is to vote for the next thing that’s just around the corner. You don’t buy time. You just hasten fascism by not doing direct action and by putting all your energy into talking about how important voting is and begging politicians with letters.
Ultimately there’s no difference for your society no. You’ll still move towards fascism and continue the genocide.
Oh, cool, I’ll remember this if Trump wins and we’re in line for the camps together. “Ha ha, this is just like it was in the good old days, under those damn Democrats, right?”
Okay. Let’s go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?
You think… the US… is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.
Check, please!
You should probably resist that with something direct. Maybe some action.
None so long as you keep giving thumbs up for the guy stabbing you because they’re not using a .50 cal.
Ye. They were bigoted as fuck, sure. But they were not actively, blatantly as fascist as they are now.
My guy, I’m a fucking near-sighted cripple with a history of depression and suicide attempts. I’m not going to overwhelm any government goons with my elite hand-to-hand skills, trusting me with a gun in the long term will likely end up with my own brains splattered on the walls, and I’m not going to outshoot anyone when I’m recruited for the anarchist militia.
Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s erecting death camps might be a good idea?
So which kills you faster? Being stabbed repeatedly, or being shot with a .50 cal repeatedly?
You’re continuously avoiding this because you know damn well that “Killing yourself faster” IS less desirable than “Killing yourself slower”, even using the assumptions in your own argument.
Holy fuck. Jesus H. Christ. Do you have any idea just how much more authoritarian the US was in years past!?
There’s plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesn’t mean “take a rifle and fight”. It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.
If you wait until you’re led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then it’s (probably) too late.
The only thing that will prevent that is knowing people will actively resist that.
4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: “Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s conducting genocide might be a good idea?”
And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years you’ll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knows…
Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going “But if I don’t choose the knife, they might pull out a gun.” Instead of asking yourself “why the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killer”. Voting for the tools of your destruction is you accepting that your killer has your support to keep killing you.
Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasn’t actively fascist.
Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when you’re personally being led to the pit?
When we’re at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, I’m pretty sure that ‘supporting my fellow humans’ isn’t what’s going to keep me out of the camps.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently ‘pure’ in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and it’s even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
The state hasn’t ‘fallen’ to this point. That we’re even having this discussion on the national stage is a sign of the changing times, sad as that is.
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed we’re descending into fascism from, right?
Holy shit, you have to be at least near my age. You can’t possibly confuse the state of our youth with conditions now.
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
…
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more ‘fascist’, in your view, back then?
My guy, I’m entirely in support of people forming orgs for voluntary association and organization outside of state power. But you also have to reckon with the fact that state power is immense currently, that non-state actors are not in a strong position currently, and that state power has the capacity to become much more repressive than it is currently.
My message is not “Vote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actions”. My message is “For fuck’s sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONE”
You want to talk long-term plans? I’m game. You want to talk creating counterbalances to state power through trade unions, syndicates, communes, self-defense organizations? I’m game to talk. But none of that contradicts “Do not let those who want the state to become WORSE into power” or “Fascism is BAD for organizing”.
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
I ain’t ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesn’t matter how many “levels of power” they hold when guillotines are being erected.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights? Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? It’s funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
You’re not stopping the killer though. You’re just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
You didn’t answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didn’t work? Only just before the firing squad?
Cool, I have a week and a half before the election. What direct action can I take to keep myself out of the camps, since voting is no longer pure enough for my high-minded ideology?
…
Do you remember how the guillotines were erected?
Do you think they were just magicked into existence?
You would think this would be a point in favor of not letting the state fall into fascism, even considering that Weimar Germany was far from trans-friendly and banned trans-related materials from the Institute for Sexual Science from being distributed.
Again, this would seem like a really good reason to not allow fascism to take over the state.
What was the plausible path away from this with a rabidly pro-Israel US public, again?
Nixon resigned only after his own party told him the political fallout would be too great for them to bother backing him.
Are we really going on the position that Nixon wasn’t fascist as fuck? I’d like to be clear on the matter, since you haven’t specified any actual issues.
Yes, which buys me more time to act against him.
It takes next to nothing to ensure the killer uses the knife instead of the gun. Yet you insist that the only moral option is to let the killer choose his own weapon, and then nobly martyr yourself on the .50 cal and call it resistance.
What criteria are you putting here for voting not working? As I’ve already outlined that fascism will come quicker without participation of left-elements in voting, and your only response has been “Yes, well, you’re still dying slowly”, I’m not really sure you’re ‘getting’ what ‘buying time’ means.
You think the camps are opening straight after the election? Come on, this takes time.
As for action, anything which is available to you. Even providing sysadmin support for orgs would be something one can do.
Not quite sure what point you’re trying to make against my analogy here.
The point I am making is that there’s always progress and reaction growing together in capitalism due to the increasing inequality. The fact that progress is happening doesn’t mean the society isn’t growing more and more fascist.
What does that have to do with the point I was making?
You realize those gay rights came from below against the wishes of then, state? Much like the gay and civil rights came from below in the USA against the wishes of the state and capital? Funny how only direct action keeps getting the goods, innit?
It doesn’t matter if Nixon would love to be a dictator. It matters if society was ready to accept fascism, which USA wasn’t back then, but is now.
It also legitimizes your stabbing, since you voted for it. So why would anyone help you stop it. And anyway, you don’t have any plan to stop it.
One has to ask themselves, why would the killer actually give you a choice in the matter. What is the benefit to the killer to killing you slowly. This is the question you don’t want to face.
Is your society doing genocide when it wasn’t before? Is your society on the threshold of masks-off fascism when it wasn’t before? Is inequality increasing or decreasing? Are working class people’s lives improving or not? You know the answers to all these, but you choose to limit yourself in thinking that things were somehow improving because some things were getting better.
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