Sure. I’m sure Trinidad and Tobago, and Albania, are definitely Nazis. And those anarchists with their black and red flags, they’re definitely Nazis too, right?
Seriously though, in this case, it’s the unofficial war flag of Ukraine.
It was originally associated with the WWII nationalist Banderite movement, which has some dubious history but is important in the 20th century story of Ukrainian nationalism. However its usage has evolved and is used widely, albeit unofficially, in modern Ukraine, by lots of military-associated groups who have nothing to do with Nazis or fascism.
One of the main selling points of it is that it trolls people who uncritically believe that Ukraine is run by Nazis.
Russians in positions of power have frequently said that Ukraine is an aberration, and doesn’t actually exist at all as a national identity. So any Ukrainian symbol is an act of resistance to that.
Why use that particular flag? Well, why does anyone do any trolling? Because it feels good getting an emotional reaction out of other people. Because it feels good sticking it to those people who want you dead, or assimilated.
But also because it helps to figure out who isn’t a fan of the concept of Ukrainian statehood. If the initial reaction towards a Ukrainian nationalist flag is that it’s “Nazi” then that’s a pretty strong signal.
I cant imagine why the flag of the fascist, ethnically cleansing Ukrainian Insurgent Army that is now used by far-right groups such as Right-Sector would be perceived as a Nazi symbol. The Ukrainian flag is the flag for Ukrainian statehood. This is the flag of Banderites (fascists).
Sure. I’m sure Trinidad and Tobago, and Albania, are definitely Nazis. And those anarchists with their black and red flags, they’re definitely Nazis too, right?
This is like defending the use of a Swastika because it is also a Hindu symbol. Everyone knows this isnt about Trinidad, Tobago, Albania or Ancoms.
I defend the use of the swastika as a Hindu and Buddhist symbol… Also fuck Nazis.
Red and black flags are pretty common antifascist circles and with anarchists and some socialists. Pretty sure the flag here is not related to the upa since it includes the trident… Please school me verbosity if I’m mistaken?
Anyways the community flag is the NATO flag. See below 👇
You can’t possibly be serious and tell me that this is the ancom flag which a) the person I’m replying to already admitted is not the case and b) is bisected diagonally and not horizontally.
It’s worked though, hasn’t it? No one with half a gram of understanding of modern Ukraine thinks it’s Nazi - nationalist, yes, but not Nazi - and yet there are several accounts on the thread who have taken that bait.
Finding Nazis everywhere is paranoia, and demeans the experience of the millions who suffered and died because of actual Nazis.
What about all the Ukrainians killed during the war and those who will be killed after on those unexploded runs? And guess what will happen after the war under that government since they probably won’t resume fair elections
Ukraine is a great country, the current government isn’t and is definitely fascist
Its meaning in Ukraine, and also cardinal sin, is freedom from the Russians. This is what makes it Nazi to a number of Russians, not because the people who wave it are actually National Socialists, but because they are against Russia.
It’s understated how important The Great Patriotic War is to the Russian people. It gives a great boost to national pride. It’s when they defeated the enemies of Russia, The Nazis. So crucial it is, that anyone else who seems to want to destroy Russia is in league with the Nazis. It’s how you get paradoxes like Vlodomyr Zelensky being called a Jewish Nazi, not because he subscribes to National Socialism, but because he is against Russia.
If we go by this definition of Nazi, the flag is absolutely Nazi. It is the banner of Ukrainian defiance against the Russian giant. The complicated people who once flew this banner does not help the case.
But today, what that flag means to the Ukrainians is freedom from the empire that abused them for hundreds of years and is desperately trying to claw back Ukraine to exploit them once more against the will of the people there
”Let’s discuss Putin speech. He declared Ukrainians to be “Neonazis” and promised to “denazify” them. Indeed the “Nazi” character of Ukrainian statehood and identity has long been a central thesis of Russian propaganda. Let’s discuss why and how it reflects ideology of Putinism🧵”
The whole thread is here, and is a very interesting read:
“The USSR was already conducting huge ethnic cleansings before the war, before any collaboration with the Nazis could even start. The war didn’t really change anything - it allowed Soviets to carry on but now with a perfect excuse. We’re cleansing minorities because they’re Nazi.”
Last I checked there are Russian crewed tanks in Ukraine. Not US crewed ones. If anyone is doing empire building, the Russians are. And before you say it, shut up about NATO expansion. Poland blackmailed the US into joining and Ukraine probably could have joined too in 2009, save for the fact that the rest of NATO didn’t want to alienate Russia. There’s a reason why public opinion on joining NATO instantly flipped in Finland and Sweden once tanks started rolling across Kerson
Where are the tanks in Ukraine?
Well there are tanks and other heavy weapons from all western countries in Ukraine and part of Russia. It’s not Uktaines’ war. The territory were already under Russian influence and population. This is classic US vs Russia, NATO vs BRICs
These are all the visually confirmed losses. Notice how the bulk of the equipment lost is Soviet or Ukrainian. You’d think that there would be visually confirmed losses of US Army men or Marines, but there aren’t. Notice also how there are no reported losses of the F-16, F-35, Rafale, Eurofighter or any western fighter. As well as the conspicuous absence of air launched missiles. The only recorded loss that the US has had is 1 MQ-9 Reaper that a Russian pilot struck when trying to light it up with afterburners.
Among these
Tanks: of 602 tanks destroyed over all, 14 Leos destroyed. (All of which were since June)
APC: of 305 destroyed, 4 were NATO (French)
IFV: of 682 destroyed, 141 were NATO
As for the Russian population? Sure, they might have spoken Russian, but did they want to be a part of Russia? Independence polls from the early 90s showed Donetsk and Luhansk wanting to leave Russia by over 80 % Kherson an Zapporizia even more so, and yet Russia claims to have annexed them, despite controlling neither.
Isn’t the black-red flag associated with far-right groups?
Sure. I’m sure Trinidad and Tobago, and Albania, are definitely Nazis. And those anarchists with their black and red flags, they’re definitely Nazis too, right?
Seriously though, in this case, it’s the unofficial war flag of Ukraine.
It was originally associated with the WWII nationalist Banderite movement, which has some dubious history but is important in the 20th century story of Ukrainian nationalism. However its usage has evolved and is used widely, albeit unofficially, in modern Ukraine, by lots of military-associated groups who have nothing to do with Nazis or fascism.
One of the main selling points of it is that it trolls people who uncritically believe that Ukraine is run by Nazis.
Literally what is being accomplished by this? I’m sure these people feel so incredibly owned by a Ukrainian nationalist flag.
Russians in positions of power have frequently said that Ukraine is an aberration, and doesn’t actually exist at all as a national identity. So any Ukrainian symbol is an act of resistance to that.
Why use that particular flag? Well, why does anyone do any trolling? Because it feels good getting an emotional reaction out of other people. Because it feels good sticking it to those people who want you dead, or assimilated.
But also because it helps to figure out who isn’t a fan of the concept of Ukrainian statehood. If the initial reaction towards a Ukrainian nationalist flag is that it’s “Nazi” then that’s a pretty strong signal.
I cant imagine why the flag of the fascist, ethnically cleansing Ukrainian Insurgent Army that is now used by far-right groups such as Right-Sector would be perceived as a Nazi symbol. The Ukrainian flag is the flag for Ukrainian statehood. This is the flag of Banderites (fascists).
This is like defending the use of a Swastika because it is also a Hindu symbol. Everyone knows this isnt about Trinidad, Tobago, Albania or Ancoms.
I defend the use of the swastika as a Hindu and Buddhist symbol… Also fuck Nazis.
Red and black flags are pretty common antifascist circles and with anarchists and some socialists. Pretty sure the flag here is not related to the upa since it includes the trident… Please school me verbosity if I’m mistaken?
Anyways the community flag is the NATO flag. See below 👇
https://sh.itjust.works/post/2283444
Again to be clear fuck Nazis, fascists and tankies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army
You can’t possibly be serious and tell me that this is the ancom flag which a) the person I’m replying to already admitted is not the case and b) is bisected diagonally and not horizontally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_symbolism
Also, “we are ironically Nazis” Sure
It’s worked though, hasn’t it? No one with half a gram of understanding of modern Ukraine thinks it’s Nazi - nationalist, yes, but not Nazi - and yet there are several accounts on the thread who have taken that bait.
Finding Nazis everywhere is paranoia, and demeans the experience of the millions who suffered and died because of actual Nazis.
What about all the Ukrainians killed during the war and those who will be killed after on those unexploded runs? And guess what will happen after the war under that government since they probably won’t resume fair elections
Ukraine is a great country, the current government isn’t and is definitely fascist
THIS red and black flag, not any colored flag. As you said, it is nazi. Why do you think it’s used by military groups?
Its meaning in Ukraine, and also cardinal sin, is freedom from the Russians. This is what makes it Nazi to a number of Russians, not because the people who wave it are actually National Socialists, but because they are against Russia.
It’s understated how important The Great Patriotic War is to the Russian people. It gives a great boost to national pride. It’s when they defeated the enemies of Russia, The Nazis. So crucial it is, that anyone else who seems to want to destroy Russia is in league with the Nazis. It’s how you get paradoxes like Vlodomyr Zelensky being called a Jewish Nazi, not because he subscribes to National Socialism, but because he is against Russia.
If we go by this definition of Nazi, the flag is absolutely Nazi. It is the banner of Ukrainian defiance against the Russian giant. The complicated people who once flew this banner does not help the case.
But today, what that flag means to the Ukrainians is freedom from the empire that abused them for hundreds of years and is desperately trying to claw back Ukraine to exploit them once more against the will of the people there
Kamil Galeev has some interesting things to say about how the Russians use the term “Nazi.”
https://nitter.net/kamilkazani/status/1497306746330697738#m
The whole thread is here, and is a very interesting read:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1497306746330697738.html
Also, in case you don’t know who Kamil Galeev is: https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/07/europe/russia-z-symbol-ukraine-war-cmd-intl/index.html
Please show us non military and non ultra nationalist populations using this flag. Also, people from Crimea using it
No because he supports fascism, war crimes, and capitalist usian imperialism
I wish this myth would die. https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/why-putin-calling-ukrainian-government-bunch-nazis
Last I checked there are Russian crewed tanks in Ukraine. Not US crewed ones. If anyone is doing empire building, the Russians are. And before you say it, shut up about NATO expansion. Poland blackmailed the US into joining and Ukraine probably could have joined too in 2009, save for the fact that the rest of NATO didn’t want to alienate Russia. There’s a reason why public opinion on joining NATO instantly flipped in Finland and Sweden once tanks started rolling across Kerson
The ICC has also issued a warrant for Vladimir Putin’s arrest https://www.icc-cpi.int/situations/ukraine
Where are the tanks in Ukraine? Well there are tanks and other heavy weapons from all western countries in Ukraine and part of Russia. It’s not Uktaines’ war. The territory were already under Russian influence and population. This is classic US vs Russia, NATO vs BRICs
That’s not what the loss data shows. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html
These are all the visually confirmed losses. Notice how the bulk of the equipment lost is Soviet or Ukrainian. You’d think that there would be visually confirmed losses of US Army men or Marines, but there aren’t. Notice also how there are no reported losses of the F-16, F-35, Rafale, Eurofighter or any western fighter. As well as the conspicuous absence of air launched missiles. The only recorded loss that the US has had is 1 MQ-9 Reaper that a Russian pilot struck when trying to light it up with afterburners. Among these Tanks: of 602 tanks destroyed over all, 14 Leos destroyed. (All of which were since June) APC: of 305 destroyed, 4 were NATO (French) IFV: of 682 destroyed, 141 were NATO
As for the Russian population? Sure, they might have spoken Russian, but did they want to be a part of Russia? Independence polls from the early 90s showed Donetsk and Luhansk wanting to leave Russia by over 80 % Kherson an Zapporizia even more so, and yet Russia claims to have annexed them, despite controlling neither.
There are indeed a large number of far right groups in eastern europe (well all of europe now), including Ukraine and Russia. This is nothing new.