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The double standard of topless & male-presenting being ok but topless & female-presenting not being okay is confusing and pointless. The rule won’t force anyone to go topless if they’d prefer not to. It just levels the playing field for everyone.
I’ve seen men with much bigger boobs than women proudly display them at every beach, lake and festival I’ve ever been to. Why is that ok but not ok for women? Nobody can give me a good answer that’s not tied into some patriarchal, thought-terminating religious BS. Everyone should have the option to go topless, irrespective of chosen gender.
I’m all for a level playing field… but it’s a complex issue. Beyond the basic: “it’s hot out - free the tiddy!” There are some complexities that will arise from the resulting freedom.
Many women who want this still may get uncomfortable if people stare / check them out etc… While it is rude to give anyone a thorough look over - I imagine many women may become deeply offended or uncomfortable if this were to happen. Eyes up here may be expected but it cannot be demanded. Equality is just that.
What about incidental contact? Public transportation, festivals, busy spaces… I have, many times, had someone come in contact with my body in cases like these. If I have exposed skin it is possible it will get touched. Nobody enjoys getting touched or having their space invaded by others but there is a stark difference between this contact and sexual assault. Imagine how some of these occurances will play out from both perspectives.
Like it or not women’s breasts have been sexualized and undoing that is a Herculean task. Regardless of where you stand on the topic there is collateral damage that can occur as a result of something that seems, on the surface, to be a simple change in law. I’m all for the change but everything gets messy in a hurry by just flipping that switch.
So there are lots of cultural and societal reasons that a woman won’t want to be topless in public. But it shouldn’t ALSO be a crime which is the point of this, right?
I completely agree with this. It shouldn’t be a crime. My concern is this becomes a monkeys paw or Pandora’s box. Legal vs normalization. Legal needs to come first but I cannot imagine how long we’re looking at things to get normalized.
but what if I dont want people to stare?
then wear a fucking bra/shirt. that’s part of what they’re for. I own several! but also, I don’t always want to wear them, or care. do you understand what a “choice” is?
what about incidental contact
yeah, topless dudes on the train can be annoying. im sure topless women on the train would be almost as annoying. and don’t care! also, have you heard of a “choice”?
undoing oversexualization is hard, so lets just not
shit, okay, you got me. too bad I need to either decide everyone must go topless, or nobody can, and we can’t each choose from day to day. oh well.
do you understand what a “choice” is?
I do. I’ve expressed this plenty above. Sometimes expanding on it bothers people with sensitivites. Discussion can do that.
yeah, topless dudes on the train can be annoying. im sure topless women on the train would be almost as annoying. and don’t care! also, have you heard of a “choice”?
And that should be the normal way things play out. I assume you are capable of understanding that the ideal is not always the norm.
shit, okay, you got me. I can’t deal with opposing opinions so I need to lose my cool and throw a tantrum. oh well.
Noted.
Teach them not to stare.
It’s pretty easy.
Sure it’s easy until you deal with the fallout. If you legalize it you have acknowledged that a woman’s breasts are not sexual. There is no recourse. The reason this is a tough subject is legally we are saying a woman’s breasts are no different from a man’s and that is a costly statement. Equal? Yes. But it opens a lot of doors and some of them are unquestionably undesirable.
If you legalize it you have acknowledged that a woman’s breasts are not sexual. There is no recourse.
No, you literally do not have to do that. You can legalize toplessness and every other aspect of every other law would remain the same.
Your argument essentially means that a person staring at a woman’s leg constantly could not constitute harassment, and that simply isn’t true.
You nailed it. I don’t understand the argument of “being legally topless = not sexual”, because who in their right mind would be saying that? They are just saying “If men can do it, so can women”. Rational people don’t bat an eye when they see a woman breastfeeding in public, because it isn’t sexual. And this isn’t any different. Hell, if any hint of sexuality in public caused uncontrollable, orgiastic behavior, then a whole bunch of the advertising in our country would have men unable to function on a daily basis.
Women should be as free as men to display themselves however they like. The other path, taken to the extreme, leads to your society’s women wearing sheets over their entire body when they go out in public.
This is making a bad faith argument. Nobody, including myself, is disagreeing that there shouldn’t be equality in this space… the statement being made is that legalizing it has side effects IN ADDITION TO the desired result. Some women want the freedom to bare their chest in public. I cannot think of any women that would want to lose protections from being objectified and abused. This is the point I was making. It’s not fair… but I understand why many parties have concerns about it.
Legally, you do. You may not like it but that’s how it works. The law is about precedent and interpretation.
This is the road that will be traveled first:
What needs to be covered up? Why does it need to be covered up? Naughty bits. There was a time when a woman’s bare leg was sexual and staring at it was, of course, a deviant behavior. Now? Legs for days. Can you take someone to court for looking at your legs? Sure. Will it have a good chance of success? No. What changed? The level of sexuality attached to legs. Extrapolate from here.
My argument isn’t about how it should be. People should be decent. They often aren’t. My statement is about the legal implications of the decision. Breasts either remain sexual which means all naughty bits are on the table or… they aren’t and are legally no different than any other nonsexual thing.
Legally, you do. You may not like it but that’s how it works.
I’m an attorney, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
My argument isn’t about how it should be. People should be decent. They often aren’t. My statement is about the legal implications of the decision. Breasts either remain sexual which means all naughty bits are on the table or… they aren’t and are legally no different than any other nonsexual thing.
This isn’t how sexual harassment is determined at all. Nothing you’ve said has any connection to reality.
Can you take someone to court for looking at your legs? Sure. Will it have a good chance of success? No.
YES! If you’re in a workplace and that behavior is happening and it consistent, it is a hostile work environment. It would be no different if the unwanted attention was on a leg, an arm, or a breast.
I’m an attorney, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Enlighten me. Dave had someone staring at his chest all meeting. He wants to make a case. Play that out.
Sure. Will it have a good chance of success? No.
YES!
I said this much.
If you’re in a workplace and that behavior is happening and it consistent, it is a hostile work environment. It would be no different if the unwanted attention was on a leg, an arm, or a breast.
That case would end before it reached a courtroom. It would be insanely difficult to prove intent if we are talking about a back, arm, leg, non sexual part of the body, etc.
Your argument essentially means that a person staring at a woman’s leg constantly could not constitute harassment, and that simply isn’t true.
In what bizzaro world would this ever result in a successful complaint? This is the point I am making. There is a difference in body parts and expressing intent.
I’m not saying it’s not wrong. It can be. I’m saying it’s not easily actionable which leads to abuse.
then make it illegal for men to be topless wherever women can’t be topless. making it illegal for women to be topless “for their own safety” and “to protect them from the evil men” is not based. the solution to men staring at women that wear or don’t wear certain clothing is not to make it illegal, I hope we can agree on that
then make it illegal for men to be topless wherever women can’t be topless.
Sure that’s an option. It’s a regression from what we’re talking about but it is undeniably equal.
making it illegal for women to be topless “for their own safety” and “to protect them from the evil men” is not based. the solution to men staring at women that wear or don’t wear certain clothing is not to make it illegal, I hope we can agree on that.
We don’t disagree. From my first to my most recent responses that hasn’t changed.
If you look objectively at my statements you will see I clearly am for the equality and for the law to be put in place. My statements following that were simply expanding on my “Herculean task” assertion I made early on. We are talking about human nature which is arguably pretty shitty when left to its own devices and you needn’t look very far to see examples of this. The law change is the first step in a series of steps. I simply am acknowledging this fact.
Pluck out their eyes
Thank you for all your thoughtful and persistent commentary in this thread. You’ve given me a lot to think about.
Cheers. It’s a complex topic and there are lots of views that should be expressed. It’s a good discussion honestly- very good reading and worth being a part of.
I am not looking forward to having to see a bunch of floppy toppies.
perfect, this is the mindset to have, i saw a dude’s nuts fall out once, i looked away, strange
Like all the way out like there was some sack damage?
Step one: remove all your mirrors
Breasts are not sex organs. There.is nothing indecent about them. Let them titties fly free.
