While I generally agree, I really wouldn’t split the hair of fake vs real Christian. These are radicals, but still Christians. The book does say some truly vile garbage. Even the new testament.
(this is gonna come with some tangents and personal experiences represented by footnotes, sorry if that bothers you)
I think it’s people trying to separate the extremists from the non-extremists; kinda like how people used to talk about how al-Qaeda or ISIS were “fake Muslims” because they twist the Quran to make it say anything they want. Additionally, I think there’s a legitimate argument to be made about whether or not they can truly be considered Christians because of their refusal to accept Jesus’ teachings about unconditional love.
I dunno if the situation with Islam/Quran is similar, but the core tentant of Christianity is that you’re a follower of Christ and that Christ’s teachings are not open to debate and must be followed, regardless of your opinions on what was said before or after him (aka Old Testament or “interpretive” books of the New Testament^1 ). That means if Christ said it, you have to follow it. That means you don’t get to be judgemental, you don’t get to look down on the homeless or tell people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, you don’t get to be pissy about gay, trans, socialists, communists or any other “-ists” or “-isms” because Jesus taught unconditional love and acceptance.^2
As such, while I understand your stance about fake vs true Christians, I believe that separating people into fake vs true Christians has legitimate value. Again, by definition, Christianity is a religion that revolves around the teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazerath. If you refuse to accept Jesus’ teachings then, by definition, you are not a Christian.
(Ironically, you could argue that there are many non-christians who could actually be considered accidental christians if they adhere to the secular parts of Jesus’ teachings, though that’s a completely different story and mostly based on my personal interpretations of his teachings).
^1 I don’t consider myself a Christian anymore, primarily because I think widely-organized religion is cancerous (I think small-scale religious institutes like churches or temples are fine, the problem is when churches, mosques, temples, etc start getting together to dictate belief beyond a church or two). However, there was a brief time during my Christian years where I was taught that the Old and New Testaments were written by humans and were a mix of figurative and literal record. Some stories, like Noah or Job, were almost certainly figurative and meant to be taken as metaphors or moral lessons; while others, like the book of Matthew, were meant to be more literal. Furthermore, because they were written and maintained by humans, they can’t be considered 100% accurate simply because humans are imperfect. Even if the original stories were 100% true, they’re extremely old and prone to translational mistakes (you can find many disagreements here, a famous one is a disagreement on the anti-homosexuality decree in Leviticus because it could be translated to condemn pederasty instead). You have to piece things together from the variety of sources and contexts presented in the Bible (and if you’re a religious scholar, bring in outside sources and historical context too).
As such, I was taught that I needed to apply critical thinking to the Bible and consider what was likely intended by God, and what was human (mis)interpretation; and that the reason why we have so many books of the Bible, sometimes with conflicting statements, is so that we can use them to try and piece together a more accurate picture of what actually happened. If we didn’t have multiple perspectives then we’d have to blindly follow a single account and hope it’s accurate.
I was taught that I should start with Jesus’ teachings and then work outwards in order to properly analyze the Bible, because those are the passages the entire religion is based around. If something conflicted with his teachings, then it was either a flawed interpretation, it was an interpretation that I lacked the historical context for (and is likely irrelevant to me as someone who wasn’t a religious scholar, otherwise the context would have probably been included) or it was because his presence was meant to re-write the rules.
Then the church had a conservative “coup” and started teaching brainlessness over thoughtfulness.
Anyway, I’m very aware that my experience was different from the way a lot of churches teach the Bible, but it gave me a radically different perspective on Christianity and it’s why I still feel compelled to defend it despite not identifying as one anymore. I saw a side of Christianity that was genuinely interested in teaching love, kindness, acceptance, intelligence and knowledge. I also saw the side of Christianity that got us to where we are today.
^2 I think an argument could be made that the love Christ taught wasn’t truly unconditional, but that it was nearly unconditional. The reason for that is, based on my prior stated experience with Christianity, I have a hard time believing that Christ would honestly teach love and tolerance towards practitioners of negative “-isms” like racism or antisemitism.
Christ taught people to turn the other cheek, and (speculatively) I think he’d teach that it’s important to be forgiving of those who open their eyes and are repentant of their bigotry. However, I can’t see him teaching people to be tolerant of bigotry because that would seem like it’d run counter to the overall theme of his message. If you tolerate bigotry, then wouldn’t that make you an accessory to it? After all, your inaction allows bigotry to spread and hold power. Furthermore, if you’re an accessory to bigotry, doesn’t that make you a bigot yourself? Jesus taught against bigotry, so I think he’d be against tolerating bigotry. I think it’s more likely that he’d teach people how to identify, resist, effectively argue with and deprogram people who’d fallen into bigotry.
This was a lot longer than I was expecting, I hope it was an interesting read even if you disagree with it.
While I generally don’t care about religion, I do care when it is taking over my country. To deny them their Christianity by defining them out of it? That’s a pretty no true scottsman style argument I cannot get behind. Also, weren’t Paul’s epsistles written before any of the gospels? Some of them by like… An additional 40 years after the first gospel was written, which itself was written 40 years after the death of the purported Christ?
Jesus “says” some interesting shit, but so do a lot of religious leaders. There’s also a bunch of magic lumped in there (did you know Jesus used to be depicted with a wand in early Christian artwork?) We don’t know who wrote any of the gospels, only their attributions. What we do have are the practical correspondences between early Christians. And by your standards, even those people might not have been Christians.
And unconditional love is all well and good, until you have to live in the real world. If your fucking with people that did nothing wrong, your gonna get fucked up, I’m not waiting for some imaginary god to let you roast for eternity, I’m going to do what I can now to stand up for those around me.
I feel like I’ve gone through some similar experiences and observations as you, as the church I grew up in was nothing like these politically indoctrination camps masquerading as churches. We didn’t talk politics; we talked about using the guidance in that collection of texts to help each other in life’s struggles and to avoid hurting each other. I think you did an excellent write-up about what that looks like, for outsiders who only see the made for TV “churches” and might think that’s what it all is. I’m glad you took the time to share all that for the people who will read it.
There were definitely plenty of people, even in our quaint little congregation, who took it all literally, though. I’ve reflected on what I got out of that chapter in my life, and while I think it probably influenced me for the better, I still have some regrets sometimes and still feel like the people that stayed behind in that world are stuck in an echo chamber where they’ll probably blissfully never think past whatever cherry-picked interpretation of it suits their world view. Sometimes I’m inclined to defend the actual message of Christianity from the political indoctrination camps, but my ambivalence usually makes me just leave it alone.
I would disagree. I’d say maybe like 50% of the people I’ve met who identify as Christians actually believe in any of it. Probably something like 30% have no belief at all and just say they’re Christians because they think everyone else is also Christian and they’re terrified of anyone thinking they’re “weird”. The last 20% seem to actively despise Christianity and would prefer if it didn’t exist at all, but they’ll tell people they are Christians to manipulate them into doing their dirty work. These people would literally say anything if it got them more power. That 20% are mostly politicians or cult leaders or BOTH.
This is one of many reasons I stopped being a Christian sometime in the mid 90s lol
Fake Christians don’t believe in anything except money and power and use Christianity as a way to get the people they plan to harm to follow them willingly
I’d be interested to know what you think of as “vile garbage” in the New Testament.
I consider people who worship Trump like he’s an antichrist to be fake Christians. Non-believer grifters who wrap themselves in the Bible so they can fleece people of their morals and money I would also label “fake Christians”.
All the stuff about slaves honoring their masters, women being submissive and subjugated by their husbands, the deferred justice of heaven to ensure the status quo, the recommendation to turn against your family for the pursuit of Christ (often described in violent terms). There’s a lot of bullshit in Corinthians and revelations. Not as terrible as the old testament, for sure, but “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’” and “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” Don’t really inspire confidence that he’s any different in believe the other detestable garbage in the old testament.
But whatever, I don’t really care. It’s all a fairy tale anyway. At best we can use the Bible as commentary on the time when it was written, set in a time before. It’s like the X-men. An allegory for modern problems given setting that would be familiar to those people reading it in their day. Not so much a moral guideline, as a way of understanding how people viewed the world in ancient times.
And I’ve never met a Christian who wasn’t trying to sell me something. Be that either an actual grift or on their own piety.
While I generally agree, I really wouldn’t split the hair of fake vs real Christian. These are radicals, but still Christians. The book does say some truly vile garbage. Even the new testament.
(this is gonna come with some tangents and personal experiences represented by footnotes, sorry if that bothers you)
I think it’s people trying to separate the extremists from the non-extremists; kinda like how people used to talk about how al-Qaeda or ISIS were “fake Muslims” because they twist the Quran to make it say anything they want. Additionally, I think there’s a legitimate argument to be made about whether or not they can truly be considered Christians because of their refusal to accept Jesus’ teachings about unconditional love.
I dunno if the situation with Islam/Quran is similar, but the core tentant of Christianity is that you’re a follower of Christ and that Christ’s teachings are not open to debate and must be followed, regardless of your opinions on what was said before or after him (aka Old Testament or “interpretive” books of the New Testament^1 ). That means if Christ said it, you have to follow it. That means you don’t get to be judgemental, you don’t get to look down on the homeless or tell people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, you don’t get to be pissy about gay, trans, socialists, communists or any other “-ists” or “-isms” because Jesus taught unconditional love and acceptance.^2
As such, while I understand your stance about fake vs true Christians, I believe that separating people into fake vs true Christians has legitimate value. Again, by definition, Christianity is a religion that revolves around the teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazerath. If you refuse to accept Jesus’ teachings then, by definition, you are not a Christian.
(Ironically, you could argue that there are many non-christians who could actually be considered accidental christians if they adhere to the secular parts of Jesus’ teachings, though that’s a completely different story and mostly based on my personal interpretations of his teachings).
^1 I don’t consider myself a Christian anymore, primarily because I think widely-organized religion is cancerous (I think small-scale religious institutes like churches or temples are fine, the problem is when churches, mosques, temples, etc start getting together to dictate belief beyond a church or two). However, there was a brief time during my Christian years where I was taught that the Old and New Testaments were written by humans and were a mix of figurative and literal record. Some stories, like Noah or Job, were almost certainly figurative and meant to be taken as metaphors or moral lessons; while others, like the book of Matthew, were meant to be more literal. Furthermore, because they were written and maintained by humans, they can’t be considered 100% accurate simply because humans are imperfect. Even if the original stories were 100% true, they’re extremely old and prone to translational mistakes (you can find many disagreements here, a famous one is a disagreement on the anti-homosexuality decree in Leviticus because it could be translated to condemn pederasty instead). You have to piece things together from the variety of sources and contexts presented in the Bible (and if you’re a religious scholar, bring in outside sources and historical context too).
As such, I was taught that I needed to apply critical thinking to the Bible and consider what was likely intended by God, and what was human (mis)interpretation; and that the reason why we have so many books of the Bible, sometimes with conflicting statements, is so that we can use them to try and piece together a more accurate picture of what actually happened. If we didn’t have multiple perspectives then we’d have to blindly follow a single account and hope it’s accurate.
I was taught that I should start with Jesus’ teachings and then work outwards in order to properly analyze the Bible, because those are the passages the entire religion is based around. If something conflicted with his teachings, then it was either a flawed interpretation, it was an interpretation that I lacked the historical context for (and is likely irrelevant to me as someone who wasn’t a religious scholar, otherwise the context would have probably been included) or it was because his presence was meant to re-write the rules.
Then the church had a conservative “coup” and started teaching brainlessness over thoughtfulness.
Anyway, I’m very aware that my experience was different from the way a lot of churches teach the Bible, but it gave me a radically different perspective on Christianity and it’s why I still feel compelled to defend it despite not identifying as one anymore. I saw a side of Christianity that was genuinely interested in teaching love, kindness, acceptance, intelligence and knowledge. I also saw the side of Christianity that got us to where we are today.
^2 I think an argument could be made that the love Christ taught wasn’t truly unconditional, but that it was nearly unconditional. The reason for that is, based on my prior stated experience with Christianity, I have a hard time believing that Christ would honestly teach love and tolerance towards practitioners of negative “-isms” like racism or antisemitism.
Christ taught people to turn the other cheek, and (speculatively) I think he’d teach that it’s important to be forgiving of those who open their eyes and are repentant of their bigotry. However, I can’t see him teaching people to be tolerant of bigotry because that would seem like it’d run counter to the overall theme of his message. If you tolerate bigotry, then wouldn’t that make you an accessory to it? After all, your inaction allows bigotry to spread and hold power. Furthermore, if you’re an accessory to bigotry, doesn’t that make you a bigot yourself? Jesus taught against bigotry, so I think he’d be against tolerating bigotry. I think it’s more likely that he’d teach people how to identify, resist, effectively argue with and deprogram people who’d fallen into bigotry.
This was a lot longer than I was expecting, I hope it was an interesting read even if you disagree with it.
While I generally don’t care about religion, I do care when it is taking over my country. To deny them their Christianity by defining them out of it? That’s a pretty no true scottsman style argument I cannot get behind. Also, weren’t Paul’s epsistles written before any of the gospels? Some of them by like… An additional 40 years after the first gospel was written, which itself was written 40 years after the death of the purported Christ?
Jesus “says” some interesting shit, but so do a lot of religious leaders. There’s also a bunch of magic lumped in there (did you know Jesus used to be depicted with a wand in early Christian artwork?) We don’t know who wrote any of the gospels, only their attributions. What we do have are the practical correspondences between early Christians. And by your standards, even those people might not have been Christians.
And unconditional love is all well and good, until you have to live in the real world. If your fucking with people that did nothing wrong, your gonna get fucked up, I’m not waiting for some imaginary god to let you roast for eternity, I’m going to do what I can now to stand up for those around me.
I feel like I’ve gone through some similar experiences and observations as you, as the church I grew up in was nothing like these politically indoctrination camps masquerading as churches. We didn’t talk politics; we talked about using the guidance in that collection of texts to help each other in life’s struggles and to avoid hurting each other. I think you did an excellent write-up about what that looks like, for outsiders who only see the made for TV “churches” and might think that’s what it all is. I’m glad you took the time to share all that for the people who will read it.
There were definitely plenty of people, even in our quaint little congregation, who took it all literally, though. I’ve reflected on what I got out of that chapter in my life, and while I think it probably influenced me for the better, I still have some regrets sometimes and still feel like the people that stayed behind in that world are stuck in an echo chamber where they’ll probably blissfully never think past whatever cherry-picked interpretation of it suits their world view. Sometimes I’m inclined to defend the actual message of Christianity from the political indoctrination camps, but my ambivalence usually makes me just leave it alone.
To be fair there are very few “real” christians.
All Christians are real. The religion is an average of those who identify with it, regardless of how well they interpret or follow it.
This is like saying not many people really speak English anymore because the language has shifted since its inception.
I would disagree. I’d say maybe like 50% of the people I’ve met who identify as Christians actually believe in any of it. Probably something like 30% have no belief at all and just say they’re Christians because they think everyone else is also Christian and they’re terrified of anyone thinking they’re “weird”. The last 20% seem to actively despise Christianity and would prefer if it didn’t exist at all, but they’ll tell people they are Christians to manipulate them into doing their dirty work. These people would literally say anything if it got them more power. That 20% are mostly politicians or cult leaders or BOTH.
This is one of many reasons I stopped being a Christian sometime in the mid 90s lol
You really hammered home the point without all the extra words I had to use. Hard agree.
Fake Christians don’t believe in anything except money and power and use Christianity as a way to get the people they plan to harm to follow them willingly
I’d be interested to know what you think of as “vile garbage” in the New Testament.
I consider people who worship Trump like he’s an antichrist to be fake Christians. Non-believer grifters who wrap themselves in the Bible so they can fleece people of their morals and money I would also label “fake Christians”.
All the stuff about slaves honoring their masters, women being submissive and subjugated by their husbands, the deferred justice of heaven to ensure the status quo, the recommendation to turn against your family for the pursuit of Christ (often described in violent terms). There’s a lot of bullshit in Corinthians and revelations. Not as terrible as the old testament, for sure, but “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’” and “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” Don’t really inspire confidence that he’s any different in believe the other detestable garbage in the old testament.
But whatever, I don’t really care. It’s all a fairy tale anyway. At best we can use the Bible as commentary on the time when it was written, set in a time before. It’s like the X-men. An allegory for modern problems given setting that would be familiar to those people reading it in their day. Not so much a moral guideline, as a way of understanding how people viewed the world in ancient times.
And I’ve never met a Christian who wasn’t trying to sell me something. Be that either an actual grift or on their own piety.
You really drew a blank when thinking about that? Like you’ve never read it or you think everything it says is moral?