• rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    All the posers here thinking they are very smart, while never asking similar “stupid” questions about their own political ideologies.

    In general, smart people ask stupid questions about everything.

    As of this specific question, there are various possible answers:

    1. Crowdfunding;

    2. Custom fees as a source of income;

    3. Close to taxes, but paying some fixed fee, like a membership fee.

    Variants which are taxes, but relevant for the question in spirit:

    1. Georgism;

    2. Only one simple income tax, only one simple property tax, no other taxes;

    3. Deciding every citizen’s payment into budget on a popular vote every N years (may even make it not a sum, but a percentage of property or something), as the average of submitted numbers or something.

    Not a sovcit, but they do have a point in saying “fuck you” to the authority.

    • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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      4 months ago

      Wait you’re calling us stupid and you think the government can fund themselves through crowdfunding.

      The government tells people they no longer have to pay taxes but they can if they want. That’s your pitch is it?

        • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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          4 months ago

          We aren’t distorting your words. Just rearranging them so your logic becomes clear.

          Please, tell us what you exactly mean then.

          How would crowdfunding work if it isn’t based on non-mandatory donations?

        • yokonzo@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Why can’t leftists argue without distorting their opponents’ words?

          This is what’s called a strawman fallacy kids

            • yokonzo@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              Honestly at this point you either seem like you’re trolling or you’re very passionate but haven’t done your research beyond reading a few articles years ago without following up or verifying their sources.

              Then when people point out the flaws you go into personal attack mode

              • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                but haven’t done your research beyond reading a few articles years ago without following up or verifying their sources.

                Have you rehearsed this phrase before a mirror? I mean, where specifically in these insult exchanges was research required?

                Also people don’t reason with “ahahaha, this has been disproved many times, everybody knows this”. Not all social changes since Lucian’s time I like.

                Then when people point out the flaws you go into personal attack mode

                There’s been one (1) person who came really pointing out something, which I gave answers for.

        • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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          4 months ago

          No one’s distorting your words, that’s literally what you said, you literally said the government could fund themselves through crowdfunding, it’s right there, you said it.

          How the hell would that work. People already dodge taxes that they have required to pay, I WAS if you’re not required to pay taxes then they definitely won’t do it at all.

          I don’t need to rearrange your words to make them sound stupid.

          • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            I said it can be one of the sources of income and it already is in the form of war bonds and donations.

            How the hell would that work. People already dodge taxes that they have required to pay, I WAS if you’re not required to pay taxes then they definitely won’t do it at all.

            Some dodge taxes, some donate. I’ve donated to some things. Many others did.

            You need something, you want something done, you have a motivation.

            It’s a part of a list.

            • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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              4 months ago

              But how is any of that better than the current system of taxes which will ensure they get money?

              It doesn’t seem like relying on the good will of people could possibly work. And I don’t see how the richer incentivized to pay literally anybody anything at all.

              This all seems like the sort of thing a hippie comes out with, but they’re allowed to come out with that kind of rubbish because their brains are permanently suzzled, so what’s your excuse?

              • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                But how is any of that better than the current system of taxes which will ensure they get money?

                Ideological problem, where you can’t opt out.

                It doesn’t seem like relying on the good will of people could possibly work. And I don’t see how the richer incentivized to pay literally anybody anything at all.

                This has some similarities with wind as a source of renewable energy. It’s one of the inputs, not all of the budget.

                In this particular line of the list there’s no incentive other than goodwill.

                This all seems like the sort of thing a hippie comes out with, but they’re allowed to come out with that kind of rubbish because their brains are permanently suzzled, so what’s your excuse?

                I don’t need any excuse for thinking about possible solutions. I’d argue people with such reactions to those do.

                And since you said “this all”, other points are not reliant on goodwill. If by excuse you jokingly meant the reason we can’t do with usual taxes - because of corruption in the wide sense. Unfair advantages gotten by some companies paying full taxes and other getting exemptions in various ways, bribe money finding more targets in a complex bendable system, imbalance of interests affecting lawmakers though the way the budget is comprised.

    • HollandJim@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Not a sovcit, but they do have a point in saying “fuck you” to the authority.

      No they don’t. Fighting “authority” for the sake of it stupid and meaningless because it’s so vague it’s dangerous. You fight the injustice or the lack of transparency, but what you prescribe as “authority” could be anything from schools that educate to laws that protect to support of groups you don’t belong to.

      If you said “Authoritarianism”, you’d have a point.

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      What if my neighborhood can’t crowdfund enough money to keep a fire department in operation because we can’t afford to?

      Just let our houses burn down?

      The fire department sends us a bill?

        • HollandJim@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          From where? You didn’t fund enough to have a fire department. And since you’re so clever as to not pay for support services, wait to you see the cost of your exceptional insurance…

          Folks, we either have a sovcit who discovered this group or an anarchist-type just stirring up shit.

            • Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              Did you really choose which firestation was gonna send a truck?? That’s the problem with using a “free market” argument for emergencies, yeah sure it’s great to choose between different emergency providers when there’s nothing happening.

              But when a fire starts or you have a heart attack? The nearest Ambulance or Fire Truck that can get you is coming to get you, and you don’t (and can’t) have a choice in which Hospital they’re gonna rush you to, or which fire station that truck came from, all that matters is that it came

              • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                Imagine being the first person to answer without insults or smug stupidity since I first commented under this post, and I wasn’t insulting others then.

                Did you really choose which firestation was gonna send a truck?? That’s the problem with using a “free market” argument for emergencies, yeah sure it’s great to choose between different emergency providers when there’s nothing happening.

                Yes. You need to have at least twice as many firestations to have a choice, if you want to choose between fire services, though.

                Or if we are talking only about choosing between insurance companies, then there’s no problem, but with only one fire service and some imagined jungle capitalism you’ll have a problem, because it’ll be very expensive as a monopolist.

                I don’t see a problem with having twice as many firestations, as in two parallel services. They don’t have only one landline at the firestation after all. They have HA in any mass service system.

                This all is unimportant, though, since it ignores the fact that something like a state fire service, only one separate from police, military and others and with administration formed separately from them is still allowable for ancap. Where membership would be like citizenship in our world, and a member gets the service on usual conditions (but pays something like taxes), while a non-member will pay a lot that one time. It’s similar to state healthcare being free for citizens, but not for foreign nationals in some countries.

                Notice how it requires no coercion or monopoly, so perfectly acceptable for ancap.

                But when a fire starts or you have a heart attack?

                See my solution.

                • Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  Yes. You need to have at least twice as many firestations to have a choice, if you want to choose between fire services, though.

                  You’re gonna sit there on your phone trying to decide which fire service to use while your house is literally burning down?

                  What about people who rent? It’s not their own private property, are they supposed to pay for the whole building being saved? Does it get put on the landlord? He never consented to having his building saved, his tenants just called the fire station when a fire started. Are the tenants supposed to contact their landlord first so that he can properly consent to having a fire station save his property?

                  I don’t see a problem with having twice as many firestations, as in two parallel services. They don’t have only one landline at the firestation after all. They have HA in any mass service system.

                  Well other than now having to pay for double the amount of infrastructure, you now also probably have people who own and profit off the stations, which introduces every normal market pressure, positive and corrupting.

                  Notice how it requires no coercion

                  “Pay our massive fee or your house burns down” certainly sounds coercive. You’ve also not established anything to guarantee that a fire station doesn’t develop a monopoly.

                  See my solution.

                  If your solution to serious and urgent emergencies like “Oh my god, my house is on fire” or “Oh my god, I’m having a heart attack” is several paragraphs long, you’ve not actually developed a solution, just a hypothetical which shows painfully obviously why we stopped running society like this millenia ago.

                  • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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                    4 months ago

                    You’re gonna sit there on your phone trying to decide which fire service to use while your house is literally burning down?

                    Why “trying to decide”? One may have some kind of subscription etc. Also finding one quickly, like with taxi and food delivery services, is a demand to be filled. Markets and such.

                    What about people who rent? It’s not their own private property, are they supposed to pay for the whole building being saved? Does it get put on the landlord? He never consented to having his building saved, his tenants just called the fire station when a fire started. Are the tenants supposed to contact their landlord first so that he can properly consent to having a fire station save his property?

                    It seems you haven’t read the paragraph about separation.

                    Well other than now having to pay for double the amount of infrastructure, you now also probably have people who own and profit off the stations, which introduces every normal market pressure, positive and corrupting.

                    You’ll pay less, that’s for sure, ask anyone who’ve worked with state services and big organizations. At their job, I mean. I have.

                    “Pay our massive fee or your house burns down” certainly sounds coercive. You’ve also not established anything to guarantee that a fire station doesn’t develop a monopoly.

                    It seems you haven’t read the paragraph about separation.

                    If your solution to serious and urgent emergencies like “Oh my god, my house is on fire” or “Oh my god, I’m having a heart attack” is several paragraphs long, you’ve not actually developed a solution, just a hypothetical which shows painfully obviously why we stopped running society like this millenia ago.

                    It seems you haven’t read the paragraph about separation. Which is one (1) paragraph, not several. Also no, it doesn’t show anything, because you haven’t read it and can’t make such claims.

                    The paragraph about separation:

                    This all is unimportant, though, since it ignores the fact that something like a state fire service, only one separate from police, military and others and with administration formed separately from them is still allowable for ancap. Where membership would be like citizenship in our world, and a member gets the service on usual conditions (but pays something like taxes), while a non-member will pay a lot that one time. It’s similar to state healthcare being free for citizens, but not for foreign nationals in some countries.

                    Now what I don’t understand is why you all refuse to read before commenting.

      • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Wrong post. All things mentioned are about one centralized state.

        The reason for them instead of usual taxes is to make it harder to embezzle taxes and reduce motivation to corrupt the state apparatus. You’ve heard that before, it was the usual republican shit.

    • AeonFelis@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      they do have a point in saying “fuck you” to the authority.

      The don’t say “fuck you” though - they say “gotcha!”. The way I understand it, the Sovereign Citizens Movement is a cargo cult. They hear about all the billionaires who barely pay taxes thanks to clever accounting and all the criminals who escape punishment on technicalities, and figure that “if the law can be manipulated - why can’t we manipulate it?”

      Do they “have a point”? Maybe, in the same way alchemy had a point that lead and gold are made of the same fundamental matter and therefore one can be converted to the other. In the same way humoralist medicine had a point that the human body has various substances that must be balanced to maintain health. They’ve all had a point in that they’ve managed to glimpse at the nature of the problem - and they all fail by grossly underestimating the actual complexity of the model and the amount of effort, resources and expertise required to achieve their goals.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if an expert legal team could achieve some of the things SovCits are trying to achieve. But that would require lots of hard work from them, and SovCits have managed to convince themselves that all it takes is a few magic phrases. I leave it to anthropologists to figure out how they came to think they could so easily figure out what these magic phrases are.

      • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        The way I understand it, the Sovereign Citizens Movement is a cargo cult. They hear about all the billionaires who barely pay taxes thanks to clever accounting and all the criminals who escape punishment on technicalities, and figure that “if the law can be manipulated - why can’t we manipulate it?”

        Ah, there is that, yes. There are people who believe that law is some magic where they can prove anything if they know it well enough and know some secrets.

        It’s not a bad belief, frankly. They want to prove something they consider right, so they believe the law would be on their side if they worked hard enough. Just naive, but not worth ridicule.

        In the sense that its connection to justice is not 1-to-1 they are right, but there are no secrets that bend it, just raw real power which a sovereign citizen doesn’t possess.

        I wouldn’t be surprised if an expert legal team could achieve some of the things SovCits are trying to achieve. But that would require lots of hard work from them, and SovCits have managed to convince themselves that all it takes is a few magic phrases. I leave it to anthropologists to figure out how they came to think they could so easily figure out what these magic phrases are.

        Oh, you already said that.

        I don’t know what you mean by “figure out” (as in what else there is to figure out), but this is indeed a common enough plot point in fairy tales.

        I was talking about the emotional part where right and common sense matter more than the law. The law is supported by force, so it’s morally acceptable to use force to protect right and common sense against it. Oh, well, speaking of USA, that’s in their Constitution anyway, and what’s more important, those founding fathers they like to mention have many times said that this is a natural principle and the Constitution doesn’t create or support it, just mentions it.

    • pyre@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago
      1. Crowdfunding;

      2. Custom fees as a source of income;

      3. Close to taxes, but paying some fixed fee, like a membership fee.

      these are just taxation with extra steps

      • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Sovcits believe most of the laws are corrupted or something like this, so these things are better as they are simpler and can even be put into constitutional law or something.

        I’ve never met one, we have “citizens of USSR” where I live.

    • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
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      1. Crowdfunding;

      Sounds like someone has never gone on a charity drive and hasn’t experienced how limited one could get funding from it.

    • TheFriar@lemm.ee
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      4 months ago

      You’re definitely misunderstanding this post. Yeah, there’s value in bucking authority. But you’re also just describing taxes. It sounds like you’ve read up on the modern form of libertarianism. Which is another crock.

      The problem isn’t that they’re questioning authority. Generally most people (especially on lemmy) are down with that. We’re talking about the leaps of illogic that sovcits rest their entire belief system on. This post is to highlight the absurd hypocrisy in what they preach. Not to call their disobedience of authority foolish, but their methods and entirely unfounded beliefs.

      • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        You mean that they are imagining a phantom republic so resilient that they can live by its “true” laws while most people violate them day and night, and that these “true” laws make functioning of said republic impossible?

        Many people believe in rule of law, yet revolutions and forceful changes are a necessity, states recognize facts made against existing law all the time, every state and system in existence has been erected by illegal violence, and with all that many say that another revolution (in hypothetical scenario, not right now) would somehow be less legal than existing systems. There’s a clear contradiction here, the only answer to which is usually that the current situation is in common interest and you can’t do that, because “fuck around and find out”.

        There are such contradictions in free speech, of which everyone here certainly knows - one can use free speech to kill free speech. There are such contradictions in property rights, as everyone ridiculing ancaps certainly knows. There are such contradictions in personal freedom. There was another example but I think I’m writing too much. Got this habit while learning English at school.

        But you’re also just describing taxes. It sounds like you’ve read up on the modern form of libertarianism. Which is another crock.

        I’ve read up on many forms of it. Yes, I’m literally listing ways to make taxes acceptable for a libertarian.

        TL;DR: Nobody employs pure ideology. If sovcits were to make their own state, they’d have taxes with the reasoning that these are necessary in practice. Same as NEP in Soviet Russia.

    • Ballistic_86@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      How very libertarian of you. Who’s going to make me pay those “not tax” taxes? Your private military? Well, my private military is bigger so I say NO to your desire for my money.

      • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        This post is not about libertarianism, idiot. Bunch of lefties overloaded me with their bullshit yesterday and now the slow ones come to have a shot, thinking those of yesterday didn’t buttfuck themselves publicly with triumphant look.

        In general when you are doing such things like they did instead of normal discussion, you are robbing yourself of an ability to make a case for your wrong opinion.