Yeah well, fuck the American auto industry for not joining the 21st century.
It’s like when they dragged their feet making fuel efficient cars after the oil crisis
I remember that time, when American car makers screamed bloody murder because Honda was killing them. Good times.
Ya if they want to survive its time to adapt and compete. This is what complacency sets up and I don’t feel bad for them at all. They saw this coming and probably just sat there expecting a bailout.
This is what happens when old fucks hold onto power and don’t change with the times.
This is what happens when the one ring of profits rules them all. US automakers don’t give a shit about anything other than their bottom line.
Why is competition for US auto makers a bad thing ?
Because “free markets, competition, being voluntary” are propaganda by capitalists using their owned media and purchased government to make its victims double as its defenders.
The goal of market capitalism is to end competition often by buying out up and coming rivals to kill the threat, manipulate the markets to your advantage using anything from bribery to cost benefit analysis of potential consequences/fines for sociopathic actions to potential profits, and conspire with your economic sector to coerce the workers you need into accepting less.
This is just expanded indentured servitude with a marketing team.
Because we don’t like free markets. We like the illusion of choice, but the security of monopoly.
Thats a new spin to me. The only thing monopolies secure is their own existence.
I do believe that is what they meant
This isn’t competition, it sounds like the CCP heavily subsidises the manufacture, in an attempt to kill the American industry off.
Thinking in decades or centuries is a very powerful tool!
This isn’t competition, it sounds like the CCP heavily subsidises the manufacture
China: “Here, have a bunch of cheap electric vehicles to replace your aging fleet of ICE engines. Don’t worry, we’re picking up a part of the tab.”
Americans: “What a great deal! We’ll buy them in droves.”
State Government: “Not so fast! This wouldn’t be fair to honest, hard working domestic car companies like Tesla and Volvo and Toyota.”
Thinking in decades or centuries is a very powerful tool!
Shame we’re only capable of thinking about the next quarter’s profits.
There’s something very amusing about the nominally communist China beating the capitalist powerhouse USA at its own game.
Large professional centrally planned economies do a better job of managing scarce resources than a pack of ill-informed and uncoordinated Wall Street Lemmings.
Sometimes. And when they dont, there is no one to stop them. It’s the age old problem of a wise despot. Just dressed in different clothes.
It’s the age old problem of a wise despot.
When you’re governing wisely, there is no need to be despotic. Conflicts and contradictions necessitate a large militant police state to keep the lower class in line. But when you’ve got generous surpluses and a rising quality of life, people are generally happy and easy to govern.
Despot means you have absolute power. It doesn’t mean you use it badly. It just means you have the potential to.
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The US subsidizes their EV industry twice as much as China. The real why China can do this is because the US has gutted their industrial base in favor of financialization while China built up their industrial base.
Yeah, sure - that’s still China trying to undercut and ensure the US remains reliant on them long term…
No that’s just the US not being competitive because stock buy backs and layoffs are easier than building good cheap cars.
…or both. Think about it, if what you’ve said is completely true (I don’t disagree, BTW), why would they bother subsidising?
They’re trying to ring fence the market. That the US is helping then is only vaguely related
But it’s not both. How can you produce something for cheaper with less subsidies unless your just better at it.
It’s like saying the winner of a race had an unfair advantage even after giving their opponent a head start.
On top of the other things people are saying, I guarantee that the U.S. automakers will do a “China will take your jobs” thing if this happens.
Because they’d send them there… to save a buck.
Or rather a whole lot of bucks.
Sounds like US automaker higher prices are the actual threat.
For what it’s worth, a government can absolutely subsidized an industry in an attempt to capture a foreign market.
There’s a reason Japan and Korea have their own auto industries despite being next door to the largest manufacturing nation on earth, and it isn’t because they’re somehow making and distributing them for even less than China.
That being said, several automakers have blindfolded themselves about the type of cars people want. I do hope this threat is significant enough that automakers actually shift to mini-electric transportation options.
If not, I’d be happy enough buying a small Chinese electric even if the taxes made it equivalent to a larger “western” vehicle. Because it’s what I want to have available to me and it’s nice to fuck capitalists with capitalism.
It’d be nice if instead of putting massive tariffs, we would just subsidise production of comparable, small cars.
its less about the subsidies and more that budget buyers in the U.S in particular are very picky buyers.
while the federal/state EV tax credits, you can get vehicles like the Chevy Bolt for 20-22k. regardless the car still isnt that popular (meaning theres something specific about the car that buyers dont want).
for those buying used cars, theres not mamy reasons why someone would buy a say new 18k-20k EV that had many cuts in design vs an older premium EV. Used 2016 Model S for example can be found near 16k. its a new cheap car vs used premium car debate
this places a burden any any auto maker trying to make a budget car, because in order for it to sell well, they need to have razor thin margins, and sell a lot. failure to do so would spell the end of your compamy due to how many you produced.
June 11th 2024 GM announced that the board approved a 6 Billion dollar stock buyback plan.
That is a direct wealth transfer from the company to the owners.
We have met the enemy, and they are us.
The next quarter is the only thing that matters.
And this is why we will bail them out again.
That 9 billion could have been spent on making a low cost EV to compete. It could have been spent as retention bonuses for their best workers. It could have been spent so many things that would secure their future in a changing world.
I think it’s as true for government as it is for corporations. Nobody is the adult in the room.
I doubt I will ever buy from the Big 3 again. Bailout parasites. Tried of these piece of shit too big too fail corps pulling this crap.
My next car will be a Chinese EV, if I have to drive it over the Mexican border myself.
This opinion is ridiculous as “the big 3” doesn’t even exist anymore and hasn’t for over a decade. Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep is owned by a Scandanavian company.
Also this isn’t written to protect the few remaining American companies, it’s to protect the entire auto industry in the US including Kia/Hyundai, VW, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, Subaru, etc.
China selling vehicles with massive subsidies that allow them to undercut everyone else in the market isn’t good for anybody but China because as soon as they put their competitors out of business, they will jack the price of their cars up as high as they want.
This is the same reason why when Walmart comes to a new town, all the similar local businesses shut down because it’s impossible to compete with their deep pockets, but now you’re advocating for it on a national scale which will potentially cost hundreds of thousands of domestic manufacturing jobs.
isn’t good for anybody but China
It’s good for all the Americans who want an EV but can’t afford any of the few models that are out there that you can legally purchase in the U.S.
There are dozens of models out there already and the used market is growing day by day. Why does everyone need a brand new car and how does building a brand new car for everyone while scrapping every existing car reduce emissions?
At what point in history have brand new cars ever been obtainable for the masses?
We’re talking about new Chinese EVs vs. new American EVs. So obviously we are talking about new cars here. As the article says, you can get a brand new Seagull in China for around $12,000 and around $21,000 in Latin America. I can’t think of a new American EV that comes even close to that price point.
You were talking about Americans who can’t afford to buy the new EVs currently on the market here in the US. Again, I’ll ask when were new cars ever obtainable for most people and why can’t a used car fill that need like it always has in the past? Seems preferable to decimating the entire industry and all those union jobs just so that China can dump a bunch of their inventory here at artificially low prices.
A Leaf is $29k before the $7500 in federal credits, which puts it pretty close to that $21k price point you mentioned and the Bolt EV was going for $26k before the $7500 credit. Seems like there are options available in this range but the people buying these cars are going for more expensive options based on sales numbers.
Seems preferable to decimating the entire industry and all those union jobs
Oh, look what I predicted when this thread was initially posted. I just didn’t know people would be doing it on their behalf in this very thread:
On top of the other things people are saying, I guarantee that the U.S. automakers will do a “China will take your jobs” thing if this happens.
https://lemmy.world/comment/10862165
If you don’t want to lose jobs because of this, nationalize the auto industry. It sucks that workers could lose their jobs because of this, but your reasoning is some “too big to fail” nonsense, especially when it includes federal credits to buy a car. That’s not going to keep auto jobs in America. Getting with the modern era rather than trying to sell everyone giant, polluting cars and trucks they don’t need will do that. If you want this to remain a capitalist enterprise, it’s no one’s fault but their own if they get out-competed by China.
I really can’t comprehend why people think this is protectionism for US automakers as there are very few of them, GM, Ford, and Tesla. There are over a dozen more that aren’t US companies that still manufacture here that such a tariff would also protect, which is why people are talking about protecting the market not a couple of US companies.
How does nationalizing the auto industry fix anything and what companies are you even talking about here?
You talk about the modern era and what people want but this is in stark contrast to what these same people actually buy. You act like people are forced to buy the vehicles that sell the best when in reality it’s a voluntary decision and they sell the best because that’s what people want.
What you’re arguing for here is exactly the same thing that companies like Walmart do to small towns when they move in. Suddenly every local competitor is out of business, their employees wind up working for Walmart and spending their Walmart pay on items from Walmart. The town suffers while the owners prosper. This is like the textbook definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face all so you can selfishly and ignorantly buy a new car at a discount price.
This isn’t “out-competing the US market,” it’s the Chinese government decimating the US market and then controlling it. Your solution seems to be raising taxes or cutting services in order to funnel taxpayer money toward automotive companies. Sounds like something Trump would come up with. Why don’t you stop beating around the bush and just say you think we should bust up the unions and slash worker pay so that we can have cheaper cars and win this race to the bottom?
At this point I believe its the international market that is subsidising Chinese EVs. Take a look at the byd dolphin mini / seagull. It is priced starting at $21,000 in mexico while the price in China is from $9700. You find many other examples of the same car models sold at much higher price overseas than locally in China.
for some of the vehicles its due to car saftey regulations, so modifications are needed to legally be sold in some regions. the regulations on vehicles in china are less strict than some other countries.
Yeah, automakers pose a threat to automakers!
I’m super conflicted about this. I want cheap EVs, but at the same time, China is intentionally dumping their prices to kill competition so they can later jack it up.
It won’t matter how fair things were if we are all dead.
I mean, EVs are not going to save the earth. Investments/innovations into our infrastructures will.
Nuclear power is the only thing currently that can save us. Unfortunately, we have ill-informed people not understanding what nuclear is.
I just posted this article separately, but renewables and particularly solar combined with better storage are enough to save us. https://powering-the-planet.ghost.io/untitled-3/
They’ll ignore this because it doesn’t fit their narrative of one capitalist owning all the means of power. Cool article though!
That’s the problem. Storage. Current battery tech just doesn’t scale. Nuclear fills those gaps for night time and cloudy days.
We literally can just run 100% electric right now with zero emissions today if the world went nuclear. We already have the tech today. It’s scalable today.
No need to wait to develop new battery tech. Our future is in our hands right now.
I still want my nuclear car GM!
Nuclear can power hydrogen generators that power a hydrogen car.
Don’t even need to make any nasty batteries from cobalt. Or mine for lithium.
So, what is nuclear?
Everyone buying cheap new cars isn’t going to be the thing that saves us.
No single thing short of abolishing the entire US Military (the singles largest polluter in the world) isn’t going to be the thing to save is. It’s about taking ALL the steps you can to make the world able to be saved. Not a great lens to evaluate personal decisions bases on if it solves the whole problem right away or not.
Arguing for everyone to go out and scrap their current car just to buy a new one isn’t going to do anything for emissions. You realize building a new car creates more pollution than just buying or using one that already exists right?
The commenter above is claiming that we’re all going to die if we can’t all go buy a new Chinese EV for $10k, which is absurd and counterproductive to reducing emissions.
Arguing for everyone to go out and scrap their current car just to buy a new one isn’t going to do anything for emissions.
Literally no one said that everyone should get a new car.
The commenter above is claiming that we’re all going to die if we can’t all go buy a new Chinese EV for $10k
No they’re saying market fairness doesn’t matter if you end up dead from climate change. Like the roughly 250,000 people a year who’s deaths can be attributed to it. Climate change is already on track to kill us, we need to actively stop it, no one thinks not being able to buy a Chinese car is going to kill them. It’s the thing that’s already killing them that we want to stop. A cheaper EV gives those who would otherwise be buying another ICE car a better option. They shouldn’t have to wait for arbitrary reasons to be able to make greener choices.
It won’t matter how fair things were if we are all dead.
What other conclusion can you get from a comment like this? “We’re all dead unless we can all get our hands on these cheap Chinese EVs.” We can’t drive two cars at once meaning we must get rid of our current vehicles, no?
Who’s going to be able to purchase these cars if hundreds of thousands/millions of union workers lose their job due to these Chinese subsidies undercutting everyone else? That has a cascading effect on the rest of the economy if you weren’t familiar with similar scenarios happening in the past like when the housing market was manipulated by banks handing out ARM loans to everyone in 2007. If you think this is all about American protectionism, why is Europe imposing the same tariffs on China for the very same reason? They’re much more accepting of climate change policy and taking steps toward a greener future. Perhaps they also see something that you’re not here.
The opposite of dumping is happening. For example the Kia EV5 is sold at [$20k in China](https://electrek.co/2023/11/17/kia-launches-20k-ev5-electric-suv-china-rival-tesla-model-y/) while the same made in China model is sold overseas [Starting at $46k](https://electrek.co/2024/04/04/kia-set-to-export-this-all-electric-suv-at-a-price-that-undercuts-tesla/)
KIA is also dumping. Those prices are not sustainable. Doesn’t make it right if others are doing it.
Well at least whatever profit Kia can’t make in China due to the low price. They can hopefully gain back from markets outside China thanks to the lack of competition driving prices down.
Promise?
China seems to be succeeding in EV vehicles, not just cars, airplanes too. I’m sorta pining for the days when we were talking about a North America Union. These days its all about protectionism and wars. :(
You can thank Trump for gutting NAFTA, making US companies weaker in the bloc as a result
Weaker than Canada or Mexico? I don’t think so.
Really? O well, that settles it then
The Earth is 🔥burning🔥, by our own hands, and we’d still rather play team sports for greedy sociopaths than prioritize even doing it a little slower with cheap EVs.
The Earth will heal in a few million years once we’ve destroyed ourselves. ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
How does buying a cheap new car even if you don’t need it going to save humanity or prevent the earth from burning?
The US is trying to keep these tiny ones out because they want you you buy their big gas vehicles or larger, more expensive electrics. Larger vehicles consume more resources, take more to produce, and even large electric vehicles draw more from the dirty grid than a small personal conveyance like these designed to move you and your groceries.
And that’s a strawman to infer that our self-destruction hinges on this single point. This is yet another example on the heap of the larger problem. “it might hurt short term PROFITS for our greed mongers, so we won’t allow something that might begin to mitigate the scale of the problem.”
That said, it sounds like you agree with them, and if that’s the case, I have good news, they’ll continue to get their way in every economic sector, and yes, cumulatively, our species is paying and will pay an even greater price for allowing blind, insatiable greed to make every decision.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/jun/20/mexico-central-america-us-heatwave
If we cared about having a future for the species at all, Humanity’s only mission right now would be to END the global economy’s jihad of growth/metastasis, every major nation would institute child limits, and we would work to end consumerism and find homeostasis/equilibrium instead for the sake of our very survival, because this reverse terraforming we’ve done in decades will take millions of years for the earth to heal from. That’s nothing to Earth’s 3.8 billion year old story of life, but it might as well be eternity to our short term monkey brains. Our reality, our world will continue to heat, and if we stopped tomorrow entirely, would take many times longer to go back to normal than our species has existed for.
But as common economic decisions like this demonstrate, we have decided to burn the future so as not to disrupt the reckless party of avarice and gluttony for our owners today. Is what it is.
There are numerous small vehicles for sale in the US already but nobody buys them because they want a vehicle that’s good at more than one thing (being small) when forking over tens of thousands of dollars for it. Nobody is legislating to ban small or efficient vehicles they want to ban a foreign country from manipulating our markets by selling vehicles at artificially low prices due to billions in subsidies for their national brands.
This idea that if we simply threw out all 200+ million vehicles in the US and replaced them with new, more efficient ones, global warming would suddenly end is ridiculous. This is just consumer mentality and treating cars like disposable iPhones with the mindset that you’re “being green.” If you want to help curb emissions, go buy a used Prius or EV instead of demanding that a factory build you a new car and do so at an artificially low price. Go buy a bicycle or electric scooter. You’re not reducing emissions by destroying a product that has already been built and is in good condition just to replace it with a newer version.
I didn’t bother reading the rest of your comment since it devolved into unhinged rambling.
Have they tried being competitive?
Sounds like some healthy competition the caps are always on about
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Capitalism is clearly going to death us first.
They should be very concerned. However they have the advantage of time, place, protectionism. They already have factories and employees. The technology is known. They’re admitting they are aware of the market. The only way they can lose is if they don’t even try ….
We’ve spent years saying how short sighted they are to not be able to look ahead of the immediate term, now they’re admitting they can’t even look ahead 2-3 years
What? A full body crumple zone vehicle!? Where do I sign up!?
Oh no! Won’t someone think of the poor automakers!
