Knowing EC, it’s very much the latter. In fact I suspect you should expect to be called a genocide supporter by them. Since you have dared not say something horrible about Biden.
Ahhh gotcha. Yeah I’m new to the site as a reddit exile and still figuring out everything here.
Yeah, those people are just tiresome, and they have no idea how geopolitics works. It’s annoying, and one of the effects of republicans cutting funding for schools and not teaching civics anymore.
I agree. And welcome to Lemmy 🙂 yesterday was my first anniversary of joining. It’s a very different place from Reddit. But it still has a lot of similar problems unfortunately. However quite a bit more can be done about it. So it’s definitely worth sticking with
I think that’s a no true Scotsman kind of thing. Biden has done plenty of progressive policies. He’s forgiven billions in student loan debt (and wanted to forgive more but R courts are political), he’s passed infrastructure, and he’s also passed some bills to keep the cost of medicine down.
Could he do more? Sure. If voters showed up at the midterms and gave him a D house, he could have done more. But they didn’t.
Way too often, people let perfect be the enemy of good. Biden is good, not perfect.
Biden passed comprehensive student loan forgiveness, and it was struck down by the supreme court for bullshit reasons. He’s using the mechanisms of government that he can control.
They did use them as best they could. They were hamstrung by a filibustering Senate, and two conservative Democrat senators (Sinema and Manchin) who refused to support getting rid of it, making killing the proposition of killing the filibuster DOA. As a result, their only choice to pass legislation was budget reconciliation, which aren’t subject to filibuster. The issue is that reconciliation has several big limits:
The bill has to be related to government spending, revenue, and the debt ceiling. You can’t toss in things like minimum wage increases or voting rights legislation.
You can only pass one of these bills per year (theoretically you can do more, but additional reconciliation bills have to go through the budgrt committee and with a 50/50 senate the GOP can just skip those meetings to deny quorum and keep it stuck)
Whatever passes still has to get at least 50 votes, which means either appeasing Manchin/Sinema or getting Republican votes (which ain’t gonna happen)
And despite that, we still got the CHIPS act, an infrastructure bill, and the Inflation Reduction Act, which–even with Manchinema throwing as many grenades in the process as they could get away with–was the biggest climate change bill in our country’s history. Not perfect, no, but a sizable step in the right direction, for once.
Billionaires are richer than ever. Housing is more expensive than ever. Food is more expensive than ever. Healthcare is more expensive than ever. Education is more expensive than ever. The planet is hotter than ever.
Are you referring to the pretty rainbow flags that McDonald’s hangs once a year? Or the BLM posters in the middle of a gated community with all white residents?
I can be out and not fear for my life. I can even marry. My partner now only rarely gets “gook” or “chink” yelled at them.
99.8% of the time when this stuff comes out of folks it’s because they are white and heterosexual and usually male.
For people secure in their white, hetero-normative privilege it’s understandable that they only care about things that affect them… and there isn’t all that much that affects them directly. But the truth is this is a VERY different world here in the US than when I was growing up. It’s now a world that despite the noise from the MAGA crowd I can exist comfortably and securely as opposed to having to hide in a closet.
Whenever I have this discussion with folks who aren’t gay or trans or BIPOC, it never occurs to them that there is a difference. Universally it turns out that since they aren’t affected by these huge cultural shifts, they also don’t look at the changes that make life easier for other groups. The simple fact that federal workers now have a $15 minimum wage means that a number of my peers now are not starving working for public lands agencies. That a number of labor laws have been enacted (including recently the non-compete thing) that makes discrimination against protected groups doesn’t affect people like you because you are not typically discriminated against. In some cases the pandemic relief for you folks was just a nice bonus to spend on luxuries, not groceries. The grants for schools didn’t matter because if you have kids they go to nice schools already.
I’m not going to argue with you - it’s impossible. But please understand that your incredibly narrow view of the world is not shared by those who have experienced this seismic shift over the last 2-3 decades.
Ok. You’re telling me this is incremental progress because what you’ve gained is worth more than everything else that’s gotten worse. Fine. I’ll accept that in the context of this conversation.
How much more expensive does housing, education, healthcare and food have to get before we can focus on it?
How hot does the planet have to get before we can focus on it?
When do we stop focusing on a specific experience someone has because of their race, gender or whatever else because the overall experience of everyone has gotten so bad we need to address it?
Nice. I can’t even see your goal posts any more. You went from “there has been NO progress” to “well there has only been progress that matters to you”. Despite the fact that I literally pointed out instances where things have gotten better for many groups of people.
Billionaires are richer than ever. Housing is more expensive than ever. Food is more expensive than ever. Education is more expensive than ever. The planet is hotter than ever.
Thanks to everybody who didn’t vote Dem.
Healthcare is more expensive than ever.
Not for people who have Obamacare vs before Obamacare.
That’s EXACTLY what they do. Every four years. The Bernie bros did the same thing in 2016, and again in 2020. And these clowns think they’re pulling some new grassroots movement. They have no idea that they’re already considered to be non voters.
They’re doing nothing. And by that I mean, they’re doing a LOT more nothing than even they think they are. Their little “protest” is completely meaningless.
Unless their intent is to get trump elected, and for some- this is the case.
The Bernie bros did the same thing in 2016, and again in 2020. And these clowns think they’re pulling some new grassroots movement.
A greater percentage of Sanders supporters voted for Clinton than Clinton supporters voted for Obama. Clinton supporters formed a PAC to get McCain elected.
They’re doing nothing. And by that I mean, they’re doing a LOT more nothing than even they think they are. Their little “protest” is completely meaningless.
Since they can be safely ignored, why aren’t you ignoring them?
Unless their intent is to get trump elected, and for some- this is the case.
Why do centrists pretend that those to their left are all the way to their right?
Yeah this “you’re throwing a tantrum because you didn’t get everything you wanted” is rich coming from the people who got Joe Biden elected in the 2020 primaries. It’s pure projection on their part. They would throw a tantrum if they didn’t get everything they wanted. The moment progressives start dominating primaries these people will stop showing up to vote in the general election.
It’s pure ego. They’ve built their personality around being “the good guys” compared to Republicans so when someone comes along and says “we need to do more” it’s a crisis for them. They can’t let anyone accomplish more than they did because it would force them to admit they became complacent.
Democrat voting Boomers are still Boomers at the end of the day. Selfish pieces of shit.
Yeah this “you’re throwing a tantrum because you didn’t get everything you wanted” is rich coming from the people who got Joe Biden elected in the 2020 primaries.
How do you know that? I voted Bernie and I think you’re throwing a tantrum.
They would throw a tantrum if they didn’t get everything they wanted.
I voted Bernie. Not throwing a tantrum. I’m thrilled that Biden is the most progressive president since LBJ if not FDR.
Maybe 2024 is the year people realize you can’t shame voters to the polls. 2016 should’ve been the year that lesson was learned, but alas, here we are.
The party that sues to keep 3rd parties off the ballot, is a private corporation that can select their own candidates, and gives voters no choice but their hand selected candidate is the party of democracy?
is a private corporation that can select their own candidates
You want the Republicans and Democrats to be public corporations? The Democratic charter has specified since the 1950’s that voters chose the candidates.
And that’s okay.
With no aspirations toward better than “okay”.
Didn’t know I could conjure up a new candidate just by aspiring to it.
I was referring to the party’s aspirations. They have none beyond “ok.”
If you’re a progressive, Biden has been the most progressive president since Kennedy. Lol.
If you’re not. Are you willing to have American democracy end, because you personally weren’t courted by the president?
Knowing EC, it’s very much the latter. In fact I suspect you should expect to be called a genocide supporter by them. Since you have dared not say something horrible about Biden.
What’s EC? Electoral College?
Removed by mod
Ahhh gotcha. Yeah I’m new to the site as a reddit exile and still figuring out everything here.
Yeah, those people are just tiresome, and they have no idea how geopolitics works. It’s annoying, and one of the effects of republicans cutting funding for schools and not teaching civics anymore.
I agree. And welcome to Lemmy 🙂 yesterday was my first anniversary of joining. It’s a very different place from Reddit. But it still has a lot of similar problems unfortunately. However quite a bit more can be done about it. So it’s definitely worth sticking with
That’s good to hear. I had my 7 year reddit account permanently suspended for sarcastically making fun of the bot infestation, so fuck them.
Yeah, it’s different but it feels like an ‘older’ forum which is definitely nice!
Purported positions?
Fuck, tell me what my positions are, wise and ancient omniscient one.
Removed by mod
I do want to stop the genocide you support by refusing to call it a genocide.
The best solution involves Biden ceasing his support for the genocide that you also support by refusing to call it a genocide.
You baselessly insulted me by calling me a child. And then lied and said it wasn’t an insult.
Forget Gaza for a second, what is progressive about KOSA?. What is progressive about getting rid of the ability to claim asylum?. What is progressive about labeling peaceful protests as against the law?
Biden may be better than Trump, but don’t dare say he is more progressive that Kennedy - or even Obama.
LBJ was more progressive than Biden, and he took office after whom?
That’s up for debate. For me, he’s the most liberal since Kennedy but if you think it’s LBJ instead, that’s fine too!
Oh, he’s certainly the most liberal since Kennedy. But he’s not progressive except in the slogans of centrists.
I think that’s a no true Scotsman kind of thing. Biden has done plenty of progressive policies. He’s forgiven billions in student loan debt (and wanted to forgive more but R courts are political), he’s passed infrastructure, and he’s also passed some bills to keep the cost of medicine down.
Could he do more? Sure. If voters showed up at the midterms and gave him a D house, he could have done more. But they didn’t.
Way too often, people let perfect be the enemy of good. Biden is good, not perfect.
Using a program signed into law by George W Bush. Does that mean Bush was also a progressive?
Biden passed comprehensive student loan forgiveness, and it was struck down by the supreme court for bullshit reasons. He’s using the mechanisms of government that he can control.
Or did you forget that part?
If Democrats had used the majorities we gave them during his first two years instead of getting in their own way, this would be a convincing argument.
Biden had numerous accomplishments from his first 2 years, lol.
That’s completely disingenuous.
They did use them as best they could. They were hamstrung by a filibustering Senate, and two conservative Democrat senators (Sinema and Manchin) who refused to support getting rid of it, making killing the proposition of killing the filibuster DOA. As a result, their only choice to pass legislation was budget reconciliation, which aren’t subject to filibuster. The issue is that reconciliation has several big limits:
The bill has to be related to government spending, revenue, and the debt ceiling. You can’t toss in things like minimum wage increases or voting rights legislation.
You can only pass one of these bills per year (theoretically you can do more, but additional reconciliation bills have to go through the budgrt committee and with a 50/50 senate the GOP can just skip those meetings to deny quorum and keep it stuck)
Whatever passes still has to get at least 50 votes, which means either appeasing Manchin/Sinema or getting Republican votes (which ain’t gonna happen)
And despite that, we still got the CHIPS act, an infrastructure bill, and the Inflation Reduction Act, which–even with Manchinema throwing as many grenades in the process as they could get away with–was the biggest climate change bill in our country’s history. Not perfect, no, but a sizable step in the right direction, for once.
Not the flex you think it is
When you take the first step on, say, a hike, do you have no aspirations to take another and another?
Or would you say… well, this first step is too hard… I’m just gonna lie down and take a nap?
Where is all this “incremental progress” you centerists always talk about? Is it in the room with us now?
Undoubtedly you have the privilege not to notice it.
Billionaires are richer than ever. Housing is more expensive than ever. Food is more expensive than ever. Healthcare is more expensive than ever. Education is more expensive than ever. The planet is hotter than ever.
Are you referring to the pretty rainbow flags that McDonald’s hangs once a year? Or the BLM posters in the middle of a gated community with all white residents?
Go on. Tell me about this incremental progress.
I can be out and not fear for my life. I can even marry. My partner now only rarely gets “gook” or “chink” yelled at them.
99.8% of the time when this stuff comes out of folks it’s because they are white and heterosexual and usually male.
For people secure in their white, hetero-normative privilege it’s understandable that they only care about things that affect them… and there isn’t all that much that affects them directly. But the truth is this is a VERY different world here in the US than when I was growing up. It’s now a world that despite the noise from the MAGA crowd I can exist comfortably and securely as opposed to having to hide in a closet.
Whenever I have this discussion with folks who aren’t gay or trans or BIPOC, it never occurs to them that there is a difference. Universally it turns out that since they aren’t affected by these huge cultural shifts, they also don’t look at the changes that make life easier for other groups. The simple fact that federal workers now have a $15 minimum wage means that a number of my peers now are not starving working for public lands agencies. That a number of labor laws have been enacted (including recently the non-compete thing) that makes discrimination against protected groups doesn’t affect people like you because you are not typically discriminated against. In some cases the pandemic relief for you folks was just a nice bonus to spend on luxuries, not groceries. The grants for schools didn’t matter because if you have kids they go to nice schools already.
I’m not going to argue with you - it’s impossible. But please understand that your incredibly narrow view of the world is not shared by those who have experienced this seismic shift over the last 2-3 decades.
Ok. You’re telling me this is incremental progress because what you’ve gained is worth more than everything else that’s gotten worse. Fine. I’ll accept that in the context of this conversation.
How much more expensive does housing, education, healthcare and food have to get before we can focus on it? How hot does the planet have to get before we can focus on it?
When do we stop focusing on a specific experience someone has because of their race, gender or whatever else because the overall experience of everyone has gotten so bad we need to address it?
Nice. I can’t even see your goal posts any more. You went from “there has been NO progress” to “well there has only been progress that matters to you”. Despite the fact that I literally pointed out instances where things have gotten better for many groups of people.
Bye now.
Thanks to everybody who didn’t vote Dem.
Not for people who have Obamacare vs before Obamacare.
How many people do you think had $400 monthly premiums for individual plans back in 2007?
Every single person who had a preexisting health condition. If they could get insurance at all that is.
That’s what the party did with the public option and increasing the minimum wage.
So because you didn’t get everything you want you are just gonna stamp your feet, take you ball and go home?
That’s EXACTLY what they do. Every four years. The Bernie bros did the same thing in 2016, and again in 2020. And these clowns think they’re pulling some new grassroots movement. They have no idea that they’re already considered to be non voters.
They’re doing nothing. And by that I mean, they’re doing a LOT more nothing than even they think they are. Their little “protest” is completely meaningless.
Unless their intent is to get trump elected, and for some- this is the case.
A greater percentage of Sanders supporters voted for Clinton than Clinton supporters voted for Obama. Clinton supporters formed a PAC to get McCain elected.
Since they can be safely ignored, why aren’t you ignoring them?
Why do centrists pretend that those to their left are all the way to their right?
Because they are. Both are trying to get Trump elected. On purpose or not.
Convenient that people to your left are trying to get trump elected simply by disagreeing with you.
Where do centrists keep getting this?
People to your left are allowed to be dissatisfied even when you get everything you want.
Yeah this “you’re throwing a tantrum because you didn’t get everything you wanted” is rich coming from the people who got Joe Biden elected in the 2020 primaries. It’s pure projection on their part. They would throw a tantrum if they didn’t get everything they wanted. The moment progressives start dominating primaries these people will stop showing up to vote in the general election.
It’s pure ego. They’ve built their personality around being “the good guys” compared to Republicans so when someone comes along and says “we need to do more” it’s a crisis for them. They can’t let anyone accomplish more than they did because it would force them to admit they became complacent.
Democrat voting Boomers are still Boomers at the end of the day. Selfish pieces of shit.
Removed by mod
How do you know that? I voted Bernie and I think you’re throwing a tantrum.
I voted Bernie. Not throwing a tantrum. I’m thrilled that Biden is the most progressive president since LBJ if not FDR.
What should they be doing instead?
Getting used to being disappointed.
It’s really not, because a lot of left of center voters just won’t bother to vote for someone they don’t like.
Then frankly, they are idiots. Any foolish “protest vote” come November is just helping Trump.
Maybe 2024 is the year people realize you can’t shame voters to the polls. 2016 should’ve been the year that lesson was learned, but alas, here we are.
i’m convinced that there are permanent blind spots that all societies have and this is the american blind spot.
i also wonder if it spells our demise as a society as well.
I never said they were rational. I’m saying they matter. Calling them idiots does nothing to keep Trump out of power.
The protest vote is the one cast against something, exactly like democrats are gonna do in November,
We aren’t “protesting” anything. We are safeguarding America’s longstanding core values of democracy and the rule of law.
Thats cute
We don’t value democracy and the rule of law because they are “cute”. We value them because countries that don’t have them are a nightmare to live in.
The party that sues to keep 3rd parties off the ballot, is a private corporation that can select their own candidates, and gives voters no choice but their hand selected candidate is the party of democracy?
You want the Republicans and Democrats to be public corporations? The Democratic charter has specified since the 1950’s that voters chose the candidates.
They are voting for Jill Stein and the worm guy anyway.
deleted by creator