- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- news@lemmy.world
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Good, now start with the sanctions.
Sanctions disproportionately hurt innocent civilians. Sanctioning individuals is one thing but entire nations shouldn’t be sanctioned. I thought we learned our lesson from Cuba but apparently not
Edit: for all the neolibs and righties downvoting me, this probably won’t do much to convince you. For anyone else, here’s an explanation on why sanctions are a terrible idea:
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/sanctions-economy-foreign-policy/tnamp/
Here’s an in depth look at why sanctions fail:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2539368
Basically, the entire point of sanctions if to hurt civilians. The logic is supposed to be that they will rise up and force a political change due to being angry and, often, starving to death. But that rarely happens. We just end up torturing poor people while wealthy elites get by just fine.
You know what hurts innocent civilians even more? Bombing them.
Y’know what avoids both options? Diplomacy.
That time has passed.
Ok, time for war? Sure thing, Macnamara
The discussion was literally about sanctions. Seems like a reasonable step compared to the “war” you immediately jump to, no?
The comment stated it is too late for diplomacy. That means inflicting suffering via outright war or passive actions like sanctions. Both are attacks on innocent civilians.
It was never given a chance
Ah yes, because telling Netanyahu “please don’t bomb children, that is not really nice” has worked out splendidly so far. Diplomacy without being able to put pressure on is nothing more than kindly asking.
Y’know what is the primary method to apply pressure in diplomacy? Sanctions.
Except they don’t work. Rarely have. All they do is torture innocent civilians and even then, really just the poor ones.
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/sanctions-economy-foreign-policy/tnamp/
A quick and easy summary
Isn’t that part of the point? If the populace suffers, government changes are more likely
It’s still inhumane. It’s fine to starve people out via sanctions but not via bombings? There’s a reason people like Sanders continue to oppose sanctions
That’s the inhumane condition you care about? Not the 34000 dead? Murdering journalists, doctors, food workers? None of that?
Sanctions don’t stop that. So you have a genocide and a starving populace in a second country. JFC when did Lemmy turn into a bunch of neolibs?
Neoliberals are Zionists
Neoliberals love sanctions. Leftists typically oppose suffering.
Which would be better to you? You’re a civilian somewhere - do you prefer to watch your livelyhood slowly being destroyed by your government or do you want a boom?
I’d assume the former gives you a chance to recognize it and do something, the latter is just boom.
False dichotomy. Sanctions don’t stop genocidal maniacs. They just ADD suffering to the world. Would I rather have 1 million people suffer or 2 million? I know the answer!
When has that actually worked?
Apartheid south Africa
You’re suggesting that the end of Apartheid was caused solely by the US sanctions causing a popular revolt in South africa?
I did not mention it was solely due to sanctions. But I do think it played a role.
Arguably any revolution comes from a critical mass of the population being unhappy…
History shows it’s never quite that clear cut. However that’s rather irrelevant. I’m asking when have US sanctions sparked a popular revolution that overthrew a government that was sanctioned?
Sanctions have been used many times since Cuba with varying success.
I’d say this situation calls for them to protect other innocent civilians.
Varying success politically, yes. But it always damages innocent civilians.
Some forms of sanctions but how would something like an arms embargo hurt innocent civilians?
An arms embargo restricts weapons sales and the like. Sanctions are designed to harm civilians. Suffering is the point. The (typically incorrect) idea is that suffering people will force political change. But again, that has rarely happened. People just end up suffering.
An arms embargo are a type of sanction.
Yes, but when people sanction a country, they mean widespread economic sanctions.
Aren’t we currently sanctioning Russia, North Korea and Iran?
Yes, also; Afghanistan, The Balkans, Belarus, Central African Republic, China, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Hong Kong, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Mali, Myanmar, Nicaragua, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, Zimbabwe and countless individuals
Great examples of suffering people! Especially North Korea.
Edit: and also cases where the sanctions did literally nothing to change those governments’ actions
It was a logistical snafu. Other shipments are not delayed. CNN
Back to your regularly scheduled Genocide.
It was probably because the munitions didn’t fit in the cargo plane with the fighter jets and armored vehicles that were due to be shipped.
Hopefully it’s just a minor delay and we can get back to killing children soon 🤞
I didn’t see a “scoop” here. White Horse declined to comment, Israel doesn’t know, then the article lists a series of unrelated incidents which could accidentally cause a reader to mistake correlation with causation.
"Biden is still evil because… " In 3 2 …
Because he approved the last 5 shipments of weapons?
Because he’s knowingly obscuring war crimes on behalf of Israel?
Because he keeps vetoing overwhelmingly supported UN resolutions against Israel?
Because he refuses to acknowledge university protests as anti genocide?
Because he waited 6 months before deciding to stop funding a genocide?
Because this report is still fresh and could mean literally nothing because the White House has not responded with comment?
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I was hoping to not engage in this discussion. But I have never seen such a hypocritical take on current affairs.
You have talked about antisemitism and genocide here. Antisemitism is real. But what Israeli supporters are doing here is to use that to shut down genuine criticisms of criminal activities. Your past history of persecution doesn’t give you a free pass to do the same onto others. You can’t claim racism to oppose the criticisms you receive due to your activities. Stop hiding behind strawman arguments.
And what do you mean by ‘cheapening the genocide’? That it’s only genocide if Jews die at the hands of the Nazis or other antisemites? Or that the Palestinians are too cheap to be considered as genocided when they are killed en masse? Are you even honest enough to talk about the Palestinian casualties in terms of cause and numbers and still claim that it isn’t a genocide? Genocide has a well defined meaning. You don’t have a monopoly on it to twist it to your whims.
It doesn’t take too much common sense to see that the Israeli response to Hamas’ initial wrong doings is greatly out of proportion. Hamas incursion was just an excuse to justify the ethnic cleansing in the region. But all I see is this transgression being billed as anti-hamas when even children are being slaughtered. How convenient is it to club all who you don’t like into a single terrorist group!
what war crimes have israeli been convicted of and what does that have to do with biden?
The same war crimes that other countries want to convict Israel of, but that’s blocked by Israel and the USA. The one that ICC at Hague is trying to, but is blocked by Bibi and biden pair.
‘I’m not convicted of anything’ isn’t a proper or even honest response when you control if you will be prosecuted at all. What you have applied is the justice of a tyrant - not that of a fair judicial system.
I am getting really tired of people questioning our motives for why we consider directly facilitating a genocide against Palestinians with US made weapons, by highly trained military personnel who not only our military has trained with, but many of the US’s largest police departments have trained with, conducting the mass killing. I don’t claim to be perfect, I especially don’t claim to be knowledgeable about every humanitarian crisis unfolding right now that isn’t getting enough attention, but I don’t understand why any of that establishes permission to ignore the humanity of the Palestinian people.
We are against genocide of the Palestinians because we are against genocide, especially when its done with the taxes paid by the citizens of our country in such a direct fashion that the president of the United States has a unique unilateral capacity to stop because of Israel’s reliance on not only literal U.S. arms and supplies but also diplomatic and monetary support. No other state in the world is more dependent upon the choices of where US defense money goes and where it doesn’t and yet… Biden seems to be behaving like this is some obscure remote conflict that he barely has any say over allllll the way over in the far off middle east…
(also if you aren’t from the U.S. but Britain or France or some other colonial power, same difference, insert your own countries politics here).
There it is. Trump is happy with your comment
This article is shit, and it’s not a political thing, just a logistical error.
Scoop?
“News” but more posh
When Hamas raided Israel they did not think through the consequences of their actions. These types of actions will be taken personally by members of the US ruling class. The ruling class will punish Hamas and the Palestinians through the Jews. That’s just how it works. Many people don’t really like the way it works. The US made 1948 Israel possible and will turn a blind eye while Israel does what it has to. Most Americans don’t like that, but know this is how it works.
