Don’t wanna be that guy but this article is a tad bit misleading. 13 euros for a plane ticket is an anomaly and probably due to governments funding airlines to encourage tourism to their countries.
That said, a couple hours on a rickety Ryanair for <13 euros beats buying a bunch of train tickets and the stress involved. Downside is missing out on getting to stop in some cool places and see some pretty sights with comfy leg room. (Also trains are more efficient due to the amount of people boarding)
It was certainly a click bait headline. But still a fair point that train fare averages are double airfare. Although we have to question, did Greenpeace throw out the outliers before compiling the stats?
They definitely didn’t throw out the outliers for cheap airline flights.
Nah, cheap flight tickets are not an anomaly. Not the norm, perhaps. But at any given time you could easily find plane tickets for less than 50 EUR, which is less than you’ll ever pay for an international train journey.
I mean it really depends on where you want to go and what kind of (how much) luggage you want to carry. A couple of years ago I flew to Stockholm from Berlin. Plane ticket plus luggage price was around 75€ or so. On the way back I took the train. 65€, unlimited luggage (I didn’t need to throw away my cooking gas) and a really nice landscape on the way back, including a ferry ride.
My point is that the cheapest flights are currently always cheaper than the cheapest train rides - not that plane travel is always less expensive.
€13 is cheap for Ryanair, but it’s not some absurd anomaly. I went from Ireland to Italy for €18, and took a bunch of other flights for <€30.
Booked a flight from Vienna to Tallinn for 16€ quite literally 5 minutes ago.
I think the discussion is just misdirected: There are distances, even within Europe, that are so large a train won’t do it, no matter how cheap it is. Most people will not sit in a train for 10 hours when they can fly for 1 1/2. It turns out, going 800 km/h in a straight line is just more convenient. Who knew.
Now, do I think trains should be cheaper? Yes, most fares do not reflect at all the level of service you receive.
Do I think inter-european rail connections will ever catch on? lolno, bar the few train aficionados.
There are really only two options: Either we all stay within a radius in our lives that resembles that of let’s say the 1960’s - or we fly.
I’m not very bullish on long-term potential for passenger train travel, but I don’t know if I’d reduce it to “flight or 1960s travel radius” either. A few points:
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High speed rail doesn’t push the radius out as far as air travel does, but it does extend it. The biggest issue for HSR, I think, is not passenger time, but cost – if passenger train travel is already uncompetitive on price, faster train infrastructure is considerably more expensive relative to that. I am not sure whether that cost is fundamental or not – maybe it’s possible to find ways to build HSR infrastructure more-cheaply.
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Self-driving vehicles. Some of the objections I’ve seen to use of sleeper trains – one way to mitigate the issues of trains being slower than planes is by having travel happen when asleep – is people who dislike having shared sleeping environments. Maybe it’s possible to do, oh, a self-driving car with a sleeper trailer or something like that.
A couple of notes;
if passenger train travel is already uncompetitive on price, faster train infrastructure is considerably more expensive relative to that. I am not sure whether that cost is fundamental or not – maybe it’s possible to find ways to build HSR infrastructure more-cheaply.
Fair, but it’s not like passenger rail is uncompetitive when taking everything into account. Cars are subsidised far more, and both cars and planes have far more negative externalities (i.e. real future costs) than trains. Plus, there’s a very real cost to being dependent on oil states for the bulk of our transportation options, one that has somewhat been demonstrated by the war in Ukraine.
I do agree on your point about high speed rail compared to normal rail, although I do think there is a lot of value in them being top of the line services to make rail as a whole more attractive.
Self-driving vehicles. Some of the objections I’ve seen to use of sleeper trains – one way to mitigate the issues of trains being slower than planes is by having travel happen when asleep – is people who dislike having shared sleeping environments. Maybe it’s possible to do, oh, a self-driving car with a sleeper trailer or something like that.
Cars straight up suck and are less efficient than trains. Why you’d think of a car with a caravan but not, idk, private sleeping compartments in trains, is beyond me.
All traffic is expensive.
Germany alone subsidises it’s flight sector with billions of € by making kerosene tax free, there’s no VAT on international flights, etc.
The total direct cost of German road traffic to the public are estimated at 70 billion € per year, of which only 25 are being paid by people driving cars.
Well, 1960s had cars and people were using these for long distance travel due to the lack of other options. My dad, for example, drove his shitty car from Berlin to the south of Spain and back.
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I think the issue may be split in two - for some, the younger and poorer, cost is the limiting factor - they are willing to put up with longer travel times but cannot stem the additional financial burden. For older and more settled people (which I am transitioning to slowly) and my parents are in, comfort trumps price at all times. They will take the fastest, most direct route. They would fly even if it cost 2-3x more (which, for them, it does since they will take the premium airlines over budget).
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Going back to individual vehicles is, in my opinion, not a great solution. I am hopeful that we will find ways to have short distance air travel use more green options (electrical?) in the near-to-mid future, therefore eliminating the need to curb the undoubtably huge demand.
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Yeah that’s the unfortunate side. Given the situation it makes way more financial sense for the consumer to take the plane ticket unless they enjoy the novelty of a long train journey.
Also had a situation recently where just a 1.5 hour train trip became 6 hours due to it breaking down in a town with few bus stops and no other trains, probably due to summer tourism. It would be nice if the rail infrastructure were even further expanded and tickets made cheaper to make it more competitive.
They’re just filling the seats at the last minute. THis has happened forever. Most of those seats would have been much more expensive, thought probably not as much as rail. I’ve never found long-distance rail travel to compete with air, which I suspect is a demand thing. Nobody wants to sit in a train for 12 hours when you can be there in 2 on a plane.
Yeah 13€ for a flight is like my current cross Germany train ticket for 15.99€, super rare and not a honest discussion basis.
In my experience price is more between 20-60€ for flights in europe if you want to travel on a specific date and less if you’re free to choose.
13 euros for a plane ticket is an anomaly and probably due to governments funding airlines to encourage tourism to their countries.
Governments subsidizing airlines over rail is one of the criticisms levied in the article:
The group has urged governments on the continent to introduce long-term, affordable “climate tickets” for public transport, including cross-border ones. They suggest these should be funded by a “phase-out of airline subsidies and a fair taxation system based on CO2 emissions.”
Completely crazy. I can’t wait till they fix this.
Luckily we’re on the right track with Germany’s 49€ ticket. Now these types of tickets just need to spread and maybe one day we’re gonna have a unified EU ticket.
Sure, but most train journeys you would replace a flight with are way too long and arduous with the 49€ ticket because that only allows regional trains and not the high speed IC/ICE trains. Those are the ones that need to get cheaper if we want people to stop flying.
If we had an inter-european ticket it could be more expensive and allow you to take high speed trains. It would be silly to give it the same restrictions that the German ticket has.
Yeah I’m just saying there are already flight journeys within Germany that could be replaced by train and there the same problem applies. I wasn’t suggesting that a hypothetical European ticket would have similar restrictions.
In austria we have a ~1000€ ticket for all public transport for a whole year. I think thats a great start, being able to use whatever bus/tram/train for 3€ per day is pretty awsome.
Sure hope so. Meanwhile, in The Netherlands, we’re raising train ticket prices once again.
Recently, I was thinking about a hypothetical trip to the Netherlands and looking for the train prices. I was suprised how expensive they really are. As I understand it, a day ticket costs more than the DeutschlandTicket for a month, and relatively even more if you consider discounted DeutschlandTickets.
It’s really unfortunate yeah. The other day I saw some tips on saving money by booking international train tickets via the foreign rail operator vs NS International. Saving 50% on your ticket price was pretty much guaranteed.
But that also only works for short distance trains. And the distances you would go by plane are not really feasible like this.
There is interrail for EU tickets.
Don’t worry, they ‘ll sort it so airline tickets are as expensive as train tickets shortly.
Monkey paw: they rise the price of plane tickets so both cost the same
We need to tax kerosene at the EU level. Would be a good way to have an independent revenue for federal institutions
But also subsidize trains at the same time. Otherwise we just forbid poor people from traveling
Trains are already heavily subsidized but I agree, fares have to go down for people to use it more.
Cars are subsidised more than trains, so while trains are heavily subsidised they’re still at a significant disadvantage compared to both cars and planes.
I don’t think the problem here is the low price of (some) flights… It’s the high price of (most) train rides…
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I’m from Germany, and none of the things you said are true. For example, to get from Aachen Central station to Hamburg Central station the cheapest option is 23,90€, but that connection is from 8pm to 3am. If you want to ride in the day, your cheapest price is the Quer-Durchs-Land-Ticket (“Cross-Country Ticket”) at 44€. But that way you are only allowed to use regional trains, which will make it a 7 hour train ride. If you want to use intercity trains (still a 5 hour ride), you will pay around 70-90€. And all of that is for 2nd class.
The age cutoff for children to travel for free is 6 years, children from 6-14 and 15-27 years travel at variously reduced prices (39€ for regional-only, 42€ for intercity).
I don’t know where you got your information, but here in Germany, we are in the same situation as the UK. And while trains in the UK may be painfully slow on cross-country travel, I have felt that they were much more comfortable to travel on, given the absolutely abysmal state of a lot of our trains.
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This is definitely a bullshit comparison because there’s no way that flight doesn’t come with a ton of airport and processing fees and taxes, making its final price many times what’s listed here:
the cost of the train was 384 euros (about $430) compared to 12.99 euros for the Ryanair flight – making the train 29.6 times more expensive than the plane.
This is definitely a bullshit comparison because there’s no way that flight doesn’t come with a ton of airport and processing fees and taxes, making its final price many times what’s listed here
And then we haven’t talked about externalities yet. Planes cause so much more climate damage (which someone will have to pay), air pollution, probably noise pollution and possibly more.
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you can definitely fly at just the advertised price. been there, done that. paid 16 € for a ticket, no extra fees.
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Don’t need it.
Have just been to Paris for a week, with just a backpack (included in the price), managed just fine. If you don’t pack enough clothes, you can just get them washed pretty much anywhere.
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In Germany you can get a train to anywhere in the country for about €20
While this is true, there’s a big asterisk attached to the statement.
DB adjusts the ticket price based on how many seats are still empty (asking other things).
Which means the earlier you book the cheaper the tickets are. But prices can ramp up quickly.
For an unpopular connection (mostly through the night) it can be enough to book 1 week in advance.
However for popular connections at prime times you gotta book at least a month in advance.
Depending on circumstances, it’s nice and it sucks at the same time.
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Kerosene should be taxed by an EU-wide tax.
As of 2023, commercial kerosene consumption is currently tax exempt under the legislation of all member states of the European Union.
Why not rather do something to make trains more affordable? People need and want to travel, making air travel more expensive will just cause people to get stuck at home.
It’s especially odd since trains inside countries tends to be affordable (and subsidised), but internationally it can get super expensive very quickly.
While those same tracks are used for cargo, so it’s not like the whole European track network needs to be maintained just for a few passenger trains.
Kerosene should be taxed by an EU-wide tax.
Yes, or price carbon according to scientific recommendations, and remove exceptions like for Kerosene.
Im sorry but 12$ for a plane ticket. Anywhere. That sounds either a lie or fishy.
Maybe its 12$ and then 100 for “fees Of 70$ for any bag. Or something
Or the air company is trying to destroy trains and is flying at a loss.
Lot of budget airlines sell cheap tickets for the last seats of short hauls in that price range.
In Eastern Europe, it’s a whole thing, people buy a cheap ticket for under 30 EUR there and back anywhere. Think like Budapest to Milan, spend a weekend, maybe not even booking a hotel.
It’s bad for the destination as well, because if you can’t pay for the plane ticket, how are you going to pay for anything else? But you still take your space in the crowd.
If that’s the case then for the purpose of the article the fare for €13 can only mislead. That is, it’s the avg ticket price that matters for comparison to trains.
The environmental problem is that the plane is taking off. If that happens, then it might as well be a fully booked aircraft.
A checked bag can be had for as little as €20 sometimes. Or just travel with a backpack as “personal item”. Definitely possible to fly for €10. €30-€50 is more common though.
It’s ridiculous.
I literally bought a ticket for 10 euros everything included from Ryanair just now. Ne bags or anything though, but I’m a backpacker and it’s allowed.
It’s real, many flights are dirt cheap, especially flights to Amsterdam via KLM from neighbouring countries. I remember waaay back in the day when I was trying to get to Russia from Ukraine to see my then online girlfriend, I had an option of going by bus directly or flying through Amsterdam for the same price but a long layover. Like, literally, across all Europe and back on a flight was the same price as a direct bus ride.
The sad part is that even with the fees the plane remains cheaper than the train.
My plane ticket was 1€ a decade ago through Ryanair. Taxes brought it up to 16€ though. I think checking a bag was 20€ and you could check up to a 20kg bag.
In France it’s pure greed. The government keeps trying to pawn off any public utility that doesn’t generate revenue since that Jupiter wannabe took office. I don’t know how politicians convinced billions of people that public utilities must be profitable…
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Oh, this reminds me of the UK
In Germany, it’s greed. I remember 18 years ago a train ride to the next city to go to the movies was 1.30 euros. Today it costs 5.80 euros. That’s not inflation, that’s just greed.
They gotta finance their infrastructure somehow.
Oh, right. They’re incentivized to not do exactly that. So they can cry to the government for even more funds.
Even more obscene is that they used to have a monopoly by law until sometime in the mid-2000s. No other corporation was allowed to compete with Deutsche Bahn, a remnant of Hitler’s agenda to strengthen governmental grip on public transport.
And still they managed to have deficits in every financial quarter.
Doesn’t really go into the reasons for the price difference?? I doubt kerosene subsidies counts for everything?
Btw I like trains and think we should ban a lot of flights that can be serviced with quick alternatives
There was something about France banning domestic flights that take less than 2(or 3?) hours by train.
Which makes a shit ton of sense. The same stretch is not gonna be shorter by plane when you factor in the extra ceremonies you have to attend both before and after the flight, and the time it takes to get to and from wherever the airport is.
Such short flights would be mostly connecting flights, so the check-in and customs overhead is a fixed constant anyway.
think we should ban a lot of flights that can be serviced with quick alternatives
Doing that without actually bringing down the train fares would be frustrating. Budget airline tickets in Europe are ludicrously cheap.
Good point, because we rely on what little competition there is to get reasonable pricing.
Test
Price is not even the issue for me, it’s availability. I tried to book a ticket from Zurich to London for December. There are apparently not connections available anymore. I would gladly pay more than if I would be taking a plane, just give me the option…
There is Europe problem with integrated universal ticket system. There is lots of lobbing against it mainly from France, Italy, Spain. Then there would be some accountability for late trains, connections made… They just don’t want to do it.
Yeah…sad to hear that. I did it before a few years ago, really nice experience. Sad to see it go.
Political will isn’t there for this. Main issue is that all companies operate independently or nationally. There are rare cases where it somewhat works. I can take train to Vienna or Berlin from here and it is pretty much painless experience.
There is Europe problem with integrated universal ticket system. There is lots of lobbing against it mainly from France, Italy, Spain
I’m not sure whether a common ticket is a good idea, but I also don’t see why this needs to be a barrier. Other than Portugal and the UK, which need to connect through those countries, no other countries in Europe need France, Spain, or Italy onboard to agree to a common system. You just can’t travel in those countries with it.
EDIT: Well, okay, and Andorra and Monaco and Vatican City.
More than accountability is likely prices. Train in Italy is much more expensive than switzerland or Germany. A single ticket would force them to lower prices
I couldn’t reply to kbin comment but this outlines lots of issues with train network in Europe.
It is little bit outdated now EU wants to make it more feasible by 2026.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/130/rail-transport
Use thetrainline.com for international train travel. I found these for you as an example. 144€, 8 hours, change in Paris. Meanwhile, flying is <60€, under 2 hours.
I know what I would choose, haha.
Awesome thanks, yeah I can’t choose a plane if there is a reasonable train connection available. I will never set foot in a plane that is run by a company that can somehow afford < 60 euro tickets.
Edit: I see, it seems to be the date I want to travel, December 20. does only return a bus connection.
Up to you. I never understood that attitude, people act like air travel is the only one subsidized, meanwhile (at least in Germany), everything from tracks to new vehicles, tickets (like the 49€ ticket) to covering of losses is subsidized by our taxes. And they are still way too expensive.
Meanwhile, airplanes are actually shockingly efficient per kg/km travelled - the train is just even more efficient. Most of the airlines even give you an option to offset your CO² footprint for the flight. Taking the difference between train and air travel and donating it to a worthy cause would likely be the most valuable option from a world saving standpoint.
But that’s neither here nor there, I understand it’s about feeling good as much as it is about efficiency.
This is why I’m flying to Edinburgh soon rather than taking the train (like I would prefer to). So much cheaper
I don’t think train can compete with a long distance means of transportation that is
1- equally or less time consuming.
2- works very similarly across countries.
3- only needs infrastructure at the start and end stops instead of for the whole journey.
What we need is to figure out a way to use less polluting, carbon neutral or non-polluting fuel for airplanes, and less of it with more efficient designs.
I don’t think train can compete with a long distance means of transportation
That’s true. Trains can compete mid-range, or should be able to compete. With better infrastructure and organization (high speed rail, coordinated timetables, unified booking, …), this range can be extended. There will always be a certain distance after which planes are the better choice.
But we still should invest to push this point further into the distance, to make planes as obsolete as possible. Trains should be the cheapest option between short distance (bus) and long distance (plane). If they are not, we are doing something wrong in creating incentives.
I want to see long distance high speed night trains. I want to see trains riding bumper to bumper. I want to go overnight from Berlin to Oslo. Or Paris up Bucharest. Porto to Utrecht.
Note as well a German company recently brought back the sleeper carriages. When the travel happens overnight while I’m asleep, I tend not to care how long it takes.
Nothing is better than being able to board the train with free luggage allowance and without all the TSA lines, harassment, confiscations, etc. No wasting of my awake time (unlike air travel). Then waking up at the destination is effectively like zero time wasted.
german company brought back the sleeper carriages
who? flixbus?
Not Flixbus. It seemed to be a new small startup company who is just dedicated to sleeper trains… I don’t recall the details but it recently got a spotlight.
At 1st I was baffled by your suggestion that Flixbus would be even a candidate, but then recalled that they operate trains too in some regions.
I think it might be this one https://www.europeansleeper.eu
they are also part of eurail, nice!
baffled by your suggestion […] flixbus
yeah they do rail too (only as a brand/front) for a company called locomore and seem to be ever expanding since they won the bus wars in the 2010s
Yes, night trains are a great option! Also sometimes much cheaper than day trains.
However, on the few night train trips I took, it didn’t feel so comfortable for me. One time, our train had a scheduled stop for several hours in the middle of the night at some station. There were bright lights all around, and other trains moving; a changing and occasionally very loud soundscape. So I was still all mushy the next day.
Some people seem to have very good experiences, others not so. Overall it’s great this option exist, and there is still room for improvement.
The plane is not that fast. You have to factor in travel to the airport (outside the city), check-in, security gates, boarding, baggage claim on the destination, which can add up to 3h or more per trip. With a train, you start in the city center and just hop on board.
To your last point, believe it or not, but planes are getting significantly more efficient. Huge wide-bodies like the 747 are retiring in part because airlines don’t want to lug around 4 engines, when the 787 can do the same trip with 2.
The a320 neo has a much better engine than previous generations, and same thing with the 737 max (crashing problems aside).
crashing problems aside
Ok but that caveat is doing a lot of work there
Oh don’t worry, planes crash no more than once in their lifetime…
In a comment about efficiency? No, it doesn’t.
it’s relevant. the worldwide 737-MAX fleet had very low carbon footprint for like a year or a bit more!
Right, so the 737-MAX are very fuel efficient. No argument there. But saying “the parenthetical about ignoring the crashing problems is doing a lot of work in this comment about fuel efficiency” is just nonsense.
I mean, the entire fleet was very efficient while it was grounded
All the 3 digit models with a “7” are Boeing. It’s worth noting that #Boeing is an #ALEC member that supports the republican party in the US & lobbies to eliminate & neuter the #EPA as well as fight every environmental protection possible. So regardless of GHG footprint¹, #boycottBoeing.
- I say GHG instead of CO₂ because airlines also have non-CO₂ GHG emissions. There was a scandal recently where #Google stopped showing the GHG emissions on their ticketing platform & swapped in CO₂ emissions to downplay the damage.
Depends on when long distance starts for you. I’m very much open to take a train across Europe if it’s reasonably priced and convenient, even if it takes considerably longer. Really wouldn’t mind an overnight train either for example, if they weren’t so damn expensive (and constantly booked out).
Anything that’s less than 3-4 hours by plane is fine by me to switch to the train for 8-10 hours imo.
Agree about the long distance being subjective. I live abroad and have a job so for me it’s not an option to use 2 days of my holiday time just to travel back and forth for one visit home. So I definitely mind that it takes considerably longer.
Well 3000 km is about 2h30 by plane. A train that goes 180km/h without any stops will still take 17h. I agree all the check in and travel to the airport definitely sucks, and I’d rather board on a train any day. But even with that nuisance, a regular plane going a typical cruise speed of 900km/h will still leave trains in the dust for anything farther than say 2000 km and make it worth it.
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I wish it made sense for me to take bus or train to visit family on the other end of Europe, but it’s both more expensive. Makes me feel half bad about a trip I should enjoy. Why is everything upside down?
Yup, and in the Netherlands the main train company is planning to make it even more expensive on purpose, in order to discourage people from taking the train.
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I drive along the A1 near Amersfoort every morning and more cars isn’t really the solution. I’m considering working from home more. Probably will once I’ve worked at this company a little bit longer.
