Manhattan is unlike almost all cities in the US. Most people don’t own cars, and a lot of people rely on public transportation to get around. Incentivising public transportation and funding that while discouraging car traffic is what the author is talking about.
I lived in Queens for 2 years and worked in Manhattan. You don’t need to explain it to me.
I still think whomever wrote that article is high. Congestion pricing is a tax levied against the poor, like parking tickets. Wealthy people simply pay the parking fines because it’s more convenient than using parking structures. I’ve seen this behavior often. Similarly, these systems aren’t primarily designed to reduce traffic–they’re a way for the rich to create private roadways. Starting at $9, the fees will keep rising until only the very rich can afford to use these roads, effectively privatizing them. Traffic reduction is just a secondary effect, not the main goal…
How anyone is throwing support behind this initiative is fucked up. These are public roads built with public funds and everyone has a right to travel them. If you don’t want traffic don’t live in a city with a population of 8-9 million other people… It’s like saying you hate the ocean and then buying beachfront. Makes no goddamn sense.
Congestion pricing is a tax levied against the poor? The poor are less likely to be driving wtf. That’s like saying extra taxes on private jets is a tax for preventing the poor from getting private jets: that wasn’t not an issue and is in fact a way of redistributing wealth to lower classes. You don’t need to drive to Manhattan to experience Manhattan in the same way that you don’t need to own a private jet to travel.
If you have a better way to reduce congestion in Manhattan AND provide additional funds to public transit, feel free to suggest that idea.
You’re conflating a colloquial expression “poor” with indigent or destitution which in 2024 was defined as any single person making less than $16,320 annually:
One person (unrelated individual):
Under 65 years…
16,320
65 years and over…
15,045
Two people:
Householder under 65 years…
21,006
21,621
Householder 65 years and over…
18,961
21,540
Three people…
24,537
25,249
25,273
Four people…
32,355
32,884
31,812
31,922
Five people…
39,019
39,586
38,374
37,436
36,863
Six people…
44,879
45,057
44,128
43,238
41,915
41,131
Seven people…
51,638
51,961
50,849
50,075
48,631
46,948
45,100
Eight people…
57,753
58,263
57,215
56,296
54,992
53,337
51,614
51,177
Nine people or more…
69,473
69,810
68,882
68,102
66,822
65,062
63,469
63,075
60,645
The median salary in NYC is $73,950, with 80% of salaries falling between $34,451 and $169,650. The lowest 10th percentile in NYC is $34,451 which is 211% higher than the federal poverty level and the cost basis for NYC is 238% higher than the federal average making New Yorker’s 27% better off than the rest of the country.
Your brain would have to be smoother than marble to believe that the only people who drive are those who are financially solvent. I was in the lowest 10th percentile back then and drove… It was consistently the cheapest option. A fucking metro-pass is $350+ per month. Cut rate liability insurance and the cost of fuel is nothing in comparison if you have a place to park (which I did).
If you have a better way to reduce congestion in Manhattan AND provide additional funds to public transit, feel free to suggest that idea.
“MAKE THERE BE LESS PEOPLE IN NEW YORK CITY!” That’s not how living in a city works, which is my major gripe with this shit. It’s New Yorker’s being pissed that there are 9 million people in a city where 9 million people live.
You can easily provide additional funds to public transit by actually charging a reasonable corporate tax in NYC–which is still one of the highest in the nation and corporations still find ways to evade paying the taxes. But that’s not going to solve any problems because the NYC transit system is over a hundred years old. The way it was designed, and the city around it, isn’t conducive to vertical scaling. Everyone wants to scream “expand the subway!” but there’s only so much it can be expanded and only so many residents it can accommodate without literally moving buildings, bridges and tunnels…
I feel your conflating things with your first point. Yeah a person living in NY is going to make more money than the average american (as you point out with that data you posted), but that doesn’t mean you can’t be poor as in struggling to pay bills, to save for retirement, or to pay for living expenses. By your definition, there’s no poor people in the US, because compared the to world our poor people are very wealthy. My point is, the financially struggling people in New York are more likely to take public transit than the people that are wealthy in New York. Emphasis on more likely because you assumed i meant all lower income people only take public transit (the confusion maybe stemming from my private jet analogy).
You’re right about large cities will have large populations, but that doesn’t mean that cities want everybody concentrating in certain areas. Providing incentives or disincentives so manage movement is helpful, especially when you have solid alternatives in the form of public transit. The fees aren’t crazy high, and it encourage cost efficient decision making (in terms of better for the city as vehicles are extremely detrimental).
I would definitely support higher corporate tax rates. A big issue is that congestion pricing is already something a majority of voters are liking and is being implemented. Increased taxes can still be done later.
When you were living in Queens and working in Manhattan, were you driving into Manhattan? Even for people who do have a car in the outer boroughs, most take public transportation to get into Manhattan.
If you were driving in, parking in a garage in Manhattan for the day can be like $50. Then there’s the time it takes to go 20 blocks in gridlock because there’s so much traffic. Having a car is expensive, and if programs are put in place to fund and expand public transportation, and discourage car travel that’s wasteful of resources in the most densely populated places in the country, that’s a good thing.
Realistically, the people who this impacts the most are the people from Long Island who use Manhattan as a free alternative to get to NJ, rather than paying for the Verrazano.
Yes. The company I worked for had a small parking garage with a raffle every year for spots. I was lucky enough to get one, so the only costs in commuting was the cost of fuel. But it was cheaper. Significantly cheaper. I lived near St. Johns University and worked near Broadway and E 23rd (near flatiron). Between 10-12 miles, depending on which way you took. About a 10m drive, a 30m subway ride, or a 1h bus ride.
Subway cost $3. Bus cost $5-7 (don’t really remember, only had to take it twice or so). And driving? Maybe $2-3 in fuel total per day. Taxi was $30. Subway was Astoria-Ditmars Blv to 34 St-Herald Sq with a few minutes of walking mixed in. Driving was hopping in my car and taking 31st down as far as it was open and running through Queens-Midtown ~$7 with EZ-Pass (reimbursed by my company) and driving to W 33 and 6th Ave. So I could spend $5900 in fuel and tolls per year which was reimbursed to me (and a write-off), or I could spend $1600/yr on metro cards which was not reimbursed.
I’m not saying its best for everyone. But to pretend like it’s good for everyone is astonishingly dumb to say.
Realistically, the people who this impacts the most are the people from Long Island who use Manhattan as a free alternative to get to NJ, rather than paying for the Verrazano.
I lived in Mastic (Long Island) for over 30 years. I can count on a single hand the number of people willing to drive through the fucking city to get to NJ instead of just taking the bridge… This is the dumbest statement I’ve ever heard…
Your company was reimbursing you for two $7 midtown tunnel tolls every day ($14/day), and providing you free on-site parking, but $9 for congestion pricing is too much?
As got going through Manhattan to get to NJ, it is one of the defacto routes from LI. The Williamsburg bridge to the Holland Tunnel is like 5 of the busiest blocks through Manhattan that was toll free. For anyone on the north shore off the LIE looking to get to the turnpike, Google will always suggest going through Manhattan. Same goes for getting to Newark airport, even though the Goethals bridge is about the same distance away from the tunnel.
Your company was reimbursing you for two $7 midtown tunnel tolls every day ($14/day), and providing you free on-site parking, but $9 for congestion pricing is too much?
They’re public roads. I already helped build them, and maintain them. It’s not about cost. It’s about NYC putting out their hand and saying “you need to help pay for this” and “you need to help maintain this” because it’s public infrastructure then having the balls to say “okay, now that you helped us build it and maintain it, now you gotta pay to use it.”
That’s not how public infrastructure works. Either it’s public, and it’s everyone’s responsibility and privilege to use, or its not.
You won a company parking raffle but you’re generalizing your situation to everyone. Most people don’t win company raffles. Help me understand how your experience applies to most low-income residents.
I didn’t own a vehicle the entire time I lived in NYC and very few people I knew did. The ones who did only used their cars on weekends. For most of the time I lived there, I had two trains with an underground transfer at Times Square. It still wasn’t worth the hassle and cost of owning a car. Parts of Queens and Brooklyn can be a different story for getting around locally, but my commute most days was just 25-30 minutes each way. I moved away a few years back and miss the freedom and walkability.
Low-income people use the subway and cross-town buses.
Manhattan is unlike almost all cities in the US. Most people don’t own cars, and a lot of people rely on public transportation to get around. Incentivising public transportation and funding that while discouraging car traffic is what the author is talking about.
I lived in Queens for 2 years and worked in Manhattan. You don’t need to explain it to me.
I still think whomever wrote that article is high. Congestion pricing is a tax levied against the poor, like parking tickets. Wealthy people simply pay the parking fines because it’s more convenient than using parking structures. I’ve seen this behavior often. Similarly, these systems aren’t primarily designed to reduce traffic–they’re a way for the rich to create private roadways. Starting at $9, the fees will keep rising until only the very rich can afford to use these roads, effectively privatizing them. Traffic reduction is just a secondary effect, not the main goal…
How anyone is throwing support behind this initiative is fucked up. These are public roads built with public funds and everyone has a right to travel them. If you don’t want traffic don’t live in a city with a population of 8-9 million other people… It’s like saying you hate the ocean and then buying beachfront. Makes no goddamn sense.
Congestion pricing is a tax levied against the poor? The poor are less likely to be driving wtf. That’s like saying extra taxes on private jets is a tax for preventing the poor from getting private jets: that wasn’t
notan issue and is in fact a way of redistributing wealth to lower classes. You don’t need to drive to Manhattan to experience Manhattan in the same way that you don’t need to own a private jet to travel.If you have a better way to reduce congestion in Manhattan AND provide additional funds to public transit, feel free to suggest that idea.
You’re conflating a colloquial expression “poor” with indigent or destitution which in 2024 was defined as any single person making less than $16,320 annually:
The median salary in NYC is $73,950, with 80% of salaries falling between $34,451 and $169,650. The lowest 10th percentile in NYC is $34,451 which is 211% higher than the federal poverty level and the cost basis for NYC is 238% higher than the federal average making New Yorker’s 27% better off than the rest of the country.
Your brain would have to be smoother than marble to believe that the only people who drive are those who are financially solvent. I was in the lowest 10th percentile back then and drove… It was consistently the cheapest option. A fucking metro-pass is $350+ per month. Cut rate liability insurance and the cost of fuel is nothing in comparison if you have a place to park (which I did).
“MAKE THERE BE LESS PEOPLE IN NEW YORK CITY!” That’s not how living in a city works, which is my major gripe with this shit. It’s New Yorker’s being pissed that there are 9 million people in a city where 9 million people live.
You can easily provide additional funds to public transit by actually charging a reasonable corporate tax in NYC–which is still one of the highest in the nation and corporations still find ways to evade paying the taxes. But that’s not going to solve any problems because the NYC transit system is over a hundred years old. The way it was designed, and the city around it, isn’t conducive to vertical scaling. Everyone wants to scream “expand the subway!” but there’s only so much it can be expanded and only so many residents it can accommodate without literally moving buildings, bridges and tunnels…
I feel your conflating things with your first point. Yeah a person living in NY is going to make more money than the average american (as you point out with that data you posted), but that doesn’t mean you can’t be poor as in struggling to pay bills, to save for retirement, or to pay for living expenses. By your definition, there’s no poor people in the US, because compared the to world our poor people are very wealthy. My point is, the financially struggling people in New York are more likely to take public transit than the people that are wealthy in New York. Emphasis on more likely because you assumed i meant all lower income people only take public transit (the confusion maybe stemming from my private jet analogy).
You’re right about large cities will have large populations, but that doesn’t mean that cities want everybody concentrating in certain areas. Providing incentives or disincentives so manage movement is helpful, especially when you have solid alternatives in the form of public transit. The fees aren’t crazy high, and it encourage cost efficient decision making (in terms of better for the city as vehicles are extremely detrimental).
I would definitely support higher corporate tax rates. A big issue is that congestion pricing is already something a majority of voters are liking and is being implemented. Increased taxes can still be done later.
When you were living in Queens and working in Manhattan, were you driving into Manhattan? Even for people who do have a car in the outer boroughs, most take public transportation to get into Manhattan.
If you were driving in, parking in a garage in Manhattan for the day can be like $50. Then there’s the time it takes to go 20 blocks in gridlock because there’s so much traffic. Having a car is expensive, and if programs are put in place to fund and expand public transportation, and discourage car travel that’s wasteful of resources in the most densely populated places in the country, that’s a good thing.
Realistically, the people who this impacts the most are the people from Long Island who use Manhattan as a free alternative to get to NJ, rather than paying for the Verrazano.
Yes. The company I worked for had a small parking garage with a raffle every year for spots. I was lucky enough to get one, so the only costs in commuting was the cost of fuel. But it was cheaper. Significantly cheaper. I lived near St. Johns University and worked near Broadway and E 23rd (near flatiron). Between 10-12 miles, depending on which way you took. About a 10m drive, a 30m subway ride, or a 1h bus ride.
Subway cost $3. Bus cost $5-7 (don’t really remember, only had to take it twice or so). And driving? Maybe $2-3 in fuel total per day. Taxi was $30. Subway was Astoria-Ditmars Blv to 34 St-Herald Sq with a few minutes of walking mixed in. Driving was hopping in my car and taking 31st down as far as it was open and running through Queens-Midtown ~$7 with EZ-Pass (reimbursed by my company) and driving to W 33 and 6th Ave. So I could spend $5900 in fuel and tolls per year which was reimbursed to me (and a write-off), or I could spend $1600/yr on metro cards which was not reimbursed.
I’m not saying its best for everyone. But to pretend like it’s good for everyone is astonishingly dumb to say.
I lived in Mastic (Long Island) for over 30 years. I can count on a single hand the number of people willing to drive through the fucking city to get to NJ instead of just taking the bridge… This is the dumbest statement I’ve ever heard…
Your company was reimbursing you for two $7 midtown tunnel tolls every day ($14/day), and providing you free on-site parking, but $9 for congestion pricing is too much?
As got going through Manhattan to get to NJ, it is one of the defacto routes from LI. The Williamsburg bridge to the Holland Tunnel is like 5 of the busiest blocks through Manhattan that was toll free. For anyone on the north shore off the LIE looking to get to the turnpike, Google will always suggest going through Manhattan. Same goes for getting to Newark airport, even though the Goethals bridge is about the same distance away from the tunnel.
They’re public roads. I already helped build them, and maintain them. It’s not about cost. It’s about NYC putting out their hand and saying “you need to help pay for this” and “you need to help maintain this” because it’s public infrastructure then having the balls to say “okay, now that you helped us build it and maintain it, now you gotta pay to use it.”
That’s not how public infrastructure works. Either it’s public, and it’s everyone’s responsibility and privilege to use, or its not.
public spending has nothing to do with being able to use it, especially for free.
you’re not getting free corn, nor free medicine, even tho both are heavily publically funded.
Fact is, the Manhattan metro area can’t support the amount of people commuting via care as there were.
You won a company parking raffle but you’re generalizing your situation to everyone. Most people don’t win company raffles. Help me understand how your experience applies to most low-income residents.
I didn’t own a vehicle the entire time I lived in NYC and very few people I knew did. The ones who did only used their cars on weekends. For most of the time I lived there, I had two trains with an underground transfer at Times Square. It still wasn’t worth the hassle and cost of owning a car. Parts of Queens and Brooklyn can be a different story for getting around locally, but my commute most days was just 25-30 minutes each way. I moved away a few years back and miss the freedom and walkability.
Low-income people use the subway and cross-town buses.