Personally, people with backyard chickens getting offended at vegan speech isn’t something I’d concern myself with as a mod.

The above statement that I made was specifically in response to someone asking why some vegans use language like Holocaust and slavery and motivations for doing so.

This isn’t the place to argue about whether its ok to have a backyard chicken, though, because the thread topic is what speech should be regulated. We can go over to debate a vegan on that if you want.

You suggest that people offending other people should be regulated and thats a different philosophy than I have about moderation. You suggest only large scale agro can be criticized. I think its overly censorious and that you will create a blindspot for this community by preventing ideas you agree with from getting challenged. But the joy of a federated platform is that people can choose where they associate and escape such echochambers whenever they want. You’ve at least been transparent with us. These shall be my concluding thoughts on the matter.

This thread is just becoming people arguing about what type of vegan speech is effective and failing to understand the concept of the seriousness with which vegans promote and believe in animal rights. To vegans, animals are individuals and their sentience is respected and taken very seriously.

I can’t speak to “off topic” or “bundled insults” but if something is “off topic” or “bundled with insults” then it can be moderated accordingly.

A lot of vegans who have had enslaved ancestors are still ok with the analogy and a lot of vegans who ancestors in the holocaust are still ok with the holocaust analogy. Since there is a wide spread of people with this very common opinion, if you censor it, you’re ok censoring vegan speech which is hostile to vegans.

I’ve already said - people compare animal agriculture to slavery because we captivate, force impregnate, mutilate, steal their children, and economically exploit animals. We violate their rights for mere taste pleasure because today, in most parts of the world, it isn’t required to do this to them.

People compare it to the holocaust because every year billions are killed, in gas chambers and in abattoirs. They’re led to their deaths packed on top of each other in trucks, breaking their legs on floors of shit, dehydrated, and terrified.

When people say this, it’s not TRYING to get an emotional response, this is just WHAT happens and WHAT you contribute to if you consume animal products. And some people really wish you’d stop and sometimes emotions get in the way and ok, if someone crosses a line, moderate that shit.

It looks like what’s really going to happen here is that because vegans are a minority, even here, the sensibilities of people who get offended by the animal rights point of view is going to blind them to the fact that they’re being incredibly censorious. Enjoy your echo chamber if you want, I guess. Disappointing.

Context matters here when we’re talking about what speech you’re going to outlaw on this platform. You can have whatever opinion you want on whether its ok to exploit a backyard chicken but if you ban someone for this, that’s quite censorious. Why don’t you just say to them what you said here and let the people suss it out.

Forbidding the comparison of animal captivity, forced reproduction and child stealing, and economic exploitation to slavery would be a clear example of indulging a censorious impulse.

I rarely use this comparison personally because it’s subject to this kind of confusion (thinking comparison to human slavery is equating to human slavery). Nevertheless it’s my personal opinion that when you account for the massive scale of the suffering, billions of animals yearly, a comparison of severity can still be drawn, even with any inspecies prejudices about the richness of human lives and experience potential compared to animals.

Tofu does has a fairly complete amino acid profile, which is why it combines well with many vegetable proteins. It’s only a little short on methionine.

Seeds, nuts, spinach, sweet potato, corn, asparagus, broccoli, chard… And more are all pretty decent sources of methionine.

You may find this article my friend wrote interesting -https://green.michaelaltfield.net/2014/10/20/complete-protein-ratios/

I think many people like to toast the bread but you don’t have to.

So it seems you’re automatically defensive about wanting to moderate vegan speech (preempting with "don’t feel personally attacked) and deep down I think you know why.

I understand you’re just trying to make a space where everyone feels welcome. But harrassment policy and other conduct policy should cover people getting out of bounds and requires no vegan specific clause. Making a vegan specific clause is a little hostile.

Unless you are truly aiming to ban people for having the opinion that it’s not ok to not be vegan. That would be tone policey and censorious, in my opinion. If a vegan is actually harassing someone that calls for moderation, but its already a rule to refrain from harassing. If you want to make a rule on harassment and include several examples, and one of them is a vegan example, that would be fine.

It just reminds me of other contentious issues like racial justice or gender issues. Sometimes people didn’t like getting called racist, but do you censor a racial minority because their message is intense and makes someone a little uncomfortable? People have the right to decline interactions that arent going well but they shouldnt expect to always be perfectly comfortable when writing in the public square.

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Even though I’m on Facebook, I use it rarely, and I wasn’t even in this particular subgroup where he posted it until he shared the update with me directly 😂. So I totally get ya.

Totally understandable.

Btw in reaponse to your other question about current OSE activities, the team has been heads down building the Seed Eco Home 4. Heres an image from their recent FB post.

The Seed Eco Home project is the one I wanted to post about next

If it isn’t too much trouble, can you tell me the pages with the broken links?

Hello! Great to have you here, sorry for the delay in responding :D

We can talk about:

• Open Hardware Projects (particularly if related to ecological mindset ;))
• Open Software Projects (also particularly if related to ecological mindset)
• How to encourage people to participate in Open Hardware and Open Software Development
• Discussions on starting Open Enterprises and Mass Collaboration Efforts
• Discussions on what it’s like volunteering or working with OSE
• Attempts to replicate or contribute to Global Village Construction Set or Eco Homes and related projects
• Topics related to OSE Guiding Philosophies (Integrated Human, Abundance Economy): https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Category:Guiding_philosophies

Personally, I’m going to try to start posting helpful resources starting with the more developed projects and proceeding to the less developed projects. I know that the way the wiki is, that it can be overwhelming for new people, even though it’s really an amazing resource. I hope to make it less intimidating by helping people understand how to navigate the project.

But certainly by no means must all posts be absolutely directly/officially related to OSE.

Exciting that it passed! Hope to see one that broadens to farm equipment, cars, consoles, and medical devices…

TIL Colorado’s right to repair farm equipment bill (hb23-1011) passed in April.

Alright here I am, I’ll take your bait.

The reason I advocate strongly for veganism is because it took me too long to become a vegan. I didn’t do it until I was in my 30s and so I have participated in so much harm that now, I want to help others not experience my regret and to become vegan as soon as possible.

I know that consuming animals is normalized and entrenched in societies around the world. But many of the people doing it don’t understand the scale of the harm. They don’t know that its BILLIONS of animals a day. They don’t know that its destroying the rainforest and is completely unsustainable. They don’t know that the runoff from CAFOs is polluting the land and water. They’re told pacifying lies about cagefree, grass fed, supposedly humane practices, by a billion dollar industry. They don’t realize “humane” doesn’t scale. People dont know that more than 90% of meat that feeds people is from CAFOs not small family operations. They don’t realize how intelligent and sentient animals are. They don’t realize that diets can be healthy and flavorful without animal products. They don’t know about live transport practices. They don’t realize how much good they can do by simply getting a plant milk or plant cheese instead of one from dairy or a mock meat instead of flesh. They don’t realize we’d use far less land allowing for more forests and more places for people to live. They don’t realize we’d also free many exploited agricultural laborers from brutal and backbreaking work.

I just want people to know the facts. I can’t force people to care but I can make sure they know what choice they’re making.

Why don’t I gain anything by it?

How is it not helping to remind them where the ice cream came from, since they obviously forgot if they’re complaining about it to a vegan.

And what makes you assume moral superiority? You said yourself that you understand how frustrating it is for us to hear about animals being exploited. That’s where the joke comes from. People unthinkingly doing wrong and expecting us to say nothing.

I feel ya.

The other day my friend was complaining that his ice cream he had delivered was melted. And I was like “Aw man. They raped a mother and killed her calf to make that ice cream for you and you didn’t even get to enjoy it cold”. He just rolled his eyes at me but yea, like sorry I’m not sorry lol.

Yeah it’s possible I’ll visit your community. Although, I am not normally a debatebro, I just didn’t want OP to be only getting negative responses to the post especially right at the start, when posting here.

And your cry baby wah wah comment is why carnists get the reputation they do.

Depends on what OP means by being mean. I read it as the sometimes sardonic remarks that are almost compelled from us when they want to discuss their carnist lifestyle around us or to us as though we are just gonna be like “you be you”.

True, I guess for my closing remarks and bringing it back to the OP, my ethical backing for veganism is partially consequentialist in both my direct actions (supporting exploitation) and indirect actions (not actually exploiting, but causing conditions that could be condusive to exploiting).

I come from the perspective of someone who felt tricked into years of animal exploitation by the welfarist position. I wasted hundreds if not thousands of dollars buying grassfed, free range, yada yada bullshit.

And in my view I should have just either kept that money or just went vegan. I don’t think jt did anything good, I don’t think it moved the world further at all. All it did was make me poorer and make me delay doing the right thing, the thing that does make a difference, which is going vegan.

Its not to say I wouldn’t engage in dirty pragmatism when I’m arguing with others. I emulate my best friend who made the biggest impact on me. I’m ok using any means necessary to make carnists reduce their consumption of animal products, including praising “small steps” like Veganuary or meatless monday or something. But my friend never coddled my delusion of animal welfarism and I also draw the line there.

Would I vote on a bill that made battery cages illegal? Sure. Would I try to convince carnists to also do that? Sure. That’s the extent of it. I’m not going to tell someone cage free is ok or better. Id just focus on how bad battery cages are.