If Russia comes out of this conflict with any gains at all that could be construed as “worth it” for their side it will be an open invitation to keep invasions on the table as a method to apply again in the near future.
Russia is literally the biggest country in the world with massive natural resources and very low population density. The idea that Russia will sacrifice its relatively small population for the sake of additional territorial gains is preposterous.
They’re literally doing that right now, though
They’re fighting against NATO expansion to Russia’s border which they have been warning against for over a decade now. Even Stoltenberg admits this now:
Yet the main reason countries at Russia’s border want to join NATO is to not get attacked by Russia.
Nah, the main reason is that their political systems have been captured by US, while propaganda groups like the NED have poured billions into trying to shape public opinion. Yet, despite all that we’re now starting to see a huge backlash against all that from the public. The massive farmer protests are just the start of that.
Oh wow, it’s the tankie version of US exceptionalism where the US controls everything and is all powerful.
The US had like zero influence in the baltics when they joined, same for Georgia when they wanted to join.
Not sure how farmer protests are involved but I hope you know that the vast majority of farmers in those protests are just people who own the farm. They don’t actually work those farms and the protests so far have been against climate regulations that cut into their profit margin.
Image believing that US had zero influence in the Baltics despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Nope, not true, but provide no facts
This is publicly available information. Spend a bit of time learning how google works instead of trolling here.
I thought Putin said it was because “Ukraine is a neo-nazi regime”?
No, wait, he said it was because the west were using Ukraine to base their weapons
Oh, nevermind, I forgot that there is no such thing as Ukraine, it’s all part of Russia
Oh, or is it because the west are gay paedophilic gender-neutral-god-worshipping heathens
Or was it because Ukraine was planning to pretend Russia nuked them first so that they could actually declare war on Russia
Ah, was it to defend Donetsk and Luhansk’s independence? Or are they part of Russia?
Or is it that Ukraine has a government with no control, where the streets of Kiev are a lawless purge?
I seem to have lost track of why he’s invading. Could you clarify for me?
Ukraine being a neo-nazi regime doing ethnic cleansing in Donbas and planning to host NATO weapons that can strike within Russia are precisely in line with the problem of NATO expansion. Incredible that you’re unable to understand how a single overarching problem can have multiple aspects to it. Hope that clarified things for you.
And how do the gay paedophile heretics fit into your overarching problem?
Wait till you find out what the banderite stance on gay pedophile heretics is.
Piss off putin
this you 😂 https://lemmy.ml/comment/8653212
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The same reason US would be against Russia turning Mexico into a battering ram against US. Meanwhile, the idea that Russia wants to take back former Soviet states is so utterly laughable. It already took Russia two years just to take on the NATO proxy in Ukraine. It’s pretty clear that it would be a far bigger effort to actually take on NATO directly. Anybody with a functioning brain can see that the whole idea is absurd. Yet, here you are…
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NATO has literally been expanding and invading countries for decades. Yugoslavia, Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria are just few examples. In fact, US currently occupies a larger portion of Syria than Russia is of Ukraine. Claiming that NATO is a defensive alliance is the height of intellectual dishonesty.
And let’s just look at a few facts about Crimea from a US government study. First thing to note is that it was never part of Ukraine proper. US government referred to it as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Second thing to note is that majority of the people in Crimea do not consider themselves Ukrainian, and the biggest demographic considers themselves Russian:
You’re deluded. Attack the opponent to win the argument, that’s how logic works. You can’t think for yourself, but you call that freedom.
I’ve made clear arguments and even provided supporting sources, if you have trouble understanding them that’s not my problem.
Okay ruzzia bot
Maybe when they are using the exact line if putin, they may be a human, but essentially a bot
or maybe they just don’t have any actual point to make and run around smearing people instead, which always seems to be the case with liberals
Also good work mods!
So if the author’s opinion is correct, then that would not be a good outcome. Do you think they’re wrong?
The Republican cowards denying aid needed by Ukraine are entirely to blame.
Sure, blame the Republicans and not the Democrats wasting all their munitions on a middle east genocide.
If you bothered reading the article before making your vapid comments, then you’d see that the aid that republicans are holding up isn’t going to change anything:
The Biden Administration is entirely correct to warn that without further massive U.S. military aid, Ukrainian resistance is likely to collapse this year. But U.S. officials also need to recognize that even if this aid continues, there is no realistic chance of total Ukrainian victory next year, or the year after that. Even if the Ukrainians can build up their forces, Russia can deepen its defenses even more.
You’re a Russian apologist, none of your B.S. is worth reading.
It seems your reading comprehension is pretty poor: the article doesn’t say that Ukraine can’t win ever, regardless.
It says that they can’t win a total victory this year or next year, even with further aid.
My reading comprehension is just fine. Anybody with a functioning brain can understand that Ukraine’s prospects of winning will only be worse from here on out. Western support is already cracking, and that’s the only thing that’s been keeping Ukraine afloat this whole time. Meanwhile, the west is already openly admitting that it lacks capacity to continue supplying Ukraine at even current levels while Russian military industry is rapidly expanding. It’s incredible that people still can’t understand the basic facts of the situation.
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Ukraine lost its sovereignty back in 2014 when the west ran a coup that overthrew the legitimate and democratically elected government. What NATO “support” has accomplished was to ensure that hundreds of thousands of people died, and millions more had their lives ruined without changing the outcome. End of story.
???
You mean when Yanukovych tried to make himself dictator and killed some protestors for it only to flee when that triggered massive protests and the US wanted the people protesting to accept his deal and not get rid of him?
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yeah that’s totally what happened https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-evidence-that-Ukraines-2014-revolution-was-due-to-a-CIA-coup
Ooh quora, well known for it’s sane and well researched investigative reporting lmao
The article literally links to dozens of mainstream western sources. I love how libs are invariably unable to actually engage with the content, and simply resort to ad hominem when faced with facts that run contrary to their narrative.
“Quora is not a good source” is not an ad hominem.
libs are invariably unable to actually engage with the content
This, however, is exactly that
Dismissing the source because it’s Quora without actually engaging with the content of the source which links to lots of primary sources, is in fact an example of ad hominem.
Pointing out that libs use this tactic however is not.
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Ah yes a quora post that reads like a conspiracy theory with sources that point to other quora posts. This is why debunking qanon, flat earth and other such conspiracies is such a chore, no one ever has like one credible thing to point to, it’s a spiderweb of events that usually don’t properly connect but they all have massive documents that try to connect them anyways.
How to say you have poor reading comprehension without saying you have poor reading comprehension.
It’s true: A really high IQ is required to fully comprehend conspiracy posts
I love how you keep referring to well documented facts as conspiracy theories. Really helps highlight the quality of your intellect.
Should also point out that five police officers were tried for this supposed massacre. The trial itself was shady as shit and Kiev Independent acknowledged that the Ukrainian prosecution sabotaged the proceedings. Out of the five officers on trial, the three that were tried in absentia were conveniently given harsh sentences and the two in attendance did not serve any time, with one being acquited.
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bUt aKtcHuAlLy!
This is not true by the way
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I actually appreciate your wholehearted bewilderment instead of calling everyone a Russian bot. I know a guy in Oregon who just fishes all the time and works shit jobs who wrote an epic series on the Maidan if you ever decide to give a shit about what happened.
To tell you the truth, I have no confidence any redditor could take the ride he and I took, back to WWII. Back to Stepan Bandera. Back to the Breton Woods conference which began the motions which positioned the US to grasp at total financial, military, technological, petrochemical, pharmaceutical, caloric, you name it we weaponized it economically on a scale the British and other little piddly “empires” could never dream of.
Back before that, to the development of capitalism itself which was delayed in Germany resulting in its peculiar backward traits. How it indirectly affected the irrationalist philosophers which inspired Hitler.
There is no hiding the coup in Ukraine slappy. It was well planned. It was heralded with a bipartisan tripartite of congressional emissaries you surely know and love: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bmaakY-PIAc (this video is search blocked on youtube and duckduckgo but is accessible). A paratrooper from north carolina helped orchestrate the false flag attacks at the Maidan. You’d never believe it all. The Russians can’t even believe some of the shit I know about Ukrainian history.
Did you know Stepan Bandera was assassinated by the KGB with poison gas
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://m.piped.video/watch?v=bmaakY-PIAc
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
PS - I can almost relate to people who say things like this, or speculate about how every country in the world engages in torture.
Almost. I can almost remember what it was like to dream like you of a world where everyone is as evil as USA, EU, Japan, NZ, Aus, SK. But thankfully it isn’t. It’s a historical process in motion. Not a static idealistic element of all nation states.
The truth is that modern torture practices were invented and codified by the colonial empires through systematic concentration camp butchery in the Congo (devices which castrate people faster, etc), other colonies, then the British invented torture which didn’t leave marks for domestic use, the Five Techniques. The US has further innovated torture by electrocuting people in the testicles and other such things related to our military hazing culture that creates so many serial killers famous in our country.
You can watch TV shows and pretend the world is all Guantanamo Bay, but we have the training manuals slappy. Going back to the torture methods of the british in malaysia and more. We have all the operation condor torture manuals and SERE. I have seen everything slappy. :-) It will always be out there now. Just like 24 taught me what I can do with a lamp wire in a few moments. We opened pandora’s box to try to control the world. We tried to rip the human soul apart and reassemble it. But we failed. And now we have to pay the price of watching our empire crumble.
The Ukrainians are part of a trail of forensic evidence going back to the British empire in Malaysia slappy. For want of all the evidence but the torture they would be marked American American American :-)
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It is not that surprising, Arabic media has been reporting it for a while. It is just that corporate media in the West is finally catching up to reality.
We’re basically seeing a narrative collapse happening in real time.
Arabic, Latin American, Southeast Asian, Chinese (obviously), Indian (obviously)…
Wait, isn’t this the same map of countries which recognize Palestine?
The true international community
If only someone had warned them
Maybe I’m wrong here, but I think most people never thought Ukraine would win the war outright. Personally, I’ve never heard anyone say that they thought Ukraine would push Russia out entirely and the war would end. Even if Ukraine did secure all of its land, Russia would almost certainly continue fighting along the border to prevent it from joining any alliance like NATO. It seemed the best anyone hoped for is that there would be enough pressure applied to Russia that something changed within where they gave up on the war.
People, and importantly western leadership, absolutely thought they could force a regime change in Russia when the war started. For example, recall all the whole rouble will be rubble talk. The plan was for the west to isolate Russia economically using sanctions and intimidate other countries to stop trading with Russia. Russian economy was supposed to collapse as a result, and people were gonna overthrow the government.
This is why Europe went all in on the whole thing, they thought they’re gonna ride it out for a few months and then the west would get to put in a compliant regime in Russia like they did in Ukraine. After that, everything would get back to business as usual, and the regime would start selling off Russia to western companies the way Ukraine is currently being sold off.
Of course that’s not how it went, and now we’re seeing a narrative shift because it’s becoming clear that the west failed to break Russia economically. Not only that, but Russia is emerging more assertive and has the backing of the Global South. This is the worst possible outcome for the west, and Europe in particular.
Maybe I’m not doing the best at explaining myself, but my intent was for my comment to say much the same as yours (which I totally agree with). I was just trying to say that I didn’t hear many people who thought Ukraine could actually win a war against Russia through fighting. There was definitely hope that Russia would have a regime change due to the pressure and that would put an end to the war, but that outcome seems more like Russia just ending fighting rather than Ukraine winning. I suppose my comment was moreso just arguing semantics on the word “win” in terms of this conflict, which is ultimately a bit pointless.
Oh yeah, I completely agree with that. The idea was to have Ukraine hold the line while the economic war does the real damage. We’re very much on the same page here.
I agree with everything, except the fact that the outcome is bad for Europe. Would be much worse had western governments reached their goals.
The problem for Europe now is that it’s been effectively cut off from Russian resources. Now that Russia has managed to reorient their trade towards the east, I doubt they’ll want to deal with Europe going forward. Why bother trying to do trade with people who hate you and are constantly trying to undermine you when you can work with friendly partners instead. Any trade with Europe will be seen as being a very risky proposition by Russia unless there’s a dramatic political shift in Europe going forward.
European leaders should’ve realized that it was in their interest to do everything possible to prevent the war from starting in the first place. Yet, they chose to follow Pied Piper right off the cliff instead.
