Veganism isn’t better for the environment than significantly reducing the total amount of consumed meat. Animals play an important, difficult-to-replace role in making agriculture sustainable. Animals can be herded on land that’s difficult to farm on, animals can consume parts of farmed plants that humans cannot, and animals produce products that humans cannot replicate without significantly more work.
Edit: I see a bunch of vegans who aren’t really engaging with the argument. To be clear, anyone who makes statements about how things are right now to try to disprove this is probably arguing in bad faith. I’m not responding to comments anymore because, while it’s entirely possible that I’m wrong, y’all aren’t making any good points.
Furthermore, I’m not anti-vegan, but now I’m tempted to be. So many people I’ve engaged with have displayed all of the worst vegan stereotypes I’ve heard about. I’ve always assumed it was chuds making shit up, but no I just hadn’t met any of the terminally online creeps in the vegan community yet OMFG.
Yes, we need to significantly reduce the amount of consumed meat (maybe not insects, if we consider them meat). A step towards more vegan and vegetarian food would definitely be necessary. Yes, not everyone needs to be vegan. But we need to consume way more vegan and vegetarian food.
There is a general consensus that insects are not considered equal in terms of animal cruelty like mammals, as they have much smaller and simpler nerve systems.
In regards to ecological imprint insects have a much better feed to food ratio and you can feed them much more things than to grazing animals.
I agree that insects are generally less ethically significant than mammals, but as far as using English food category words I don’t see how it’s useful to draw a hard distinction between the category of “meat” and the category of “insects who’s bodies can be cooked and eaten”.
The reason I asked the question is that I noticed they made multiple comments about eating insects and I was curious as to the motivations behind their position.
In vegan communities insects are very much extended the same moral considerations as other animals. What you’re advocating is a form of speciesism, which is something better avoided as much as possible.
Anti-specieism is an argument often brought by vegan fascists, arguing that killing humans is no worse than killing mosquitos.
Also the concept of avoiding specieism fails the moment you look into nature. Is the cat that eats a mouse a speciest? Should you let mosquitos bite you and transmit diseases because killing them would be speciest? Are the farmers in Southern Africa that are plagued by locusts speciest for trying to protect their harvest?
Probably you would consider these examples as legitimate. But what about the building of the house you reside in? The production of your electronics, your energy usage…
It is impossible to make a consistent value frame of what is acceptable killing of animals and what isn’t, if you deem an individual fly as equally protectworthy as a sheep or a human.
Vegan fascists? The people who are trying to put an end to the forced captivity, continuous torture, rape, exploitation, commodification, and perpetual holocaust-levels of slaughter of virtually every species of animal that is not human, are fascists?
Here’s the most commonly accepted definition of veganism:
“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”"
Emphasis added. The vast majority of vegans do not believe that killing a mosquito is exactly equivalent to killing a human, and even of the people who do, it’s intended to imply that all species lives are important, that the mosquito’s life is seen as equally valuable to the human’s. The only reason such a proposition seems abhorrent to you is because you’re looking at the mosquito through the lens of your carnist supremacist mindset, which is to see the mosquito as something worthless and thus conclude that a human’s life is considered by vegans to be equally worthless.
But again, like everyone else vegans take anti-speciesism only as far as is practical. We just do it better. The mosquito bite is easy. If you know mosquitos are around, it’s wise to wear repellent, and take other appropriate precautions depending on your circumstances. Maybe modify your environment if possible to be less of a breeding ground for them, if it’s bad enough. If you’re dealing with a particular mosquito, odds are they have already bitten you, so how is the lethal carnist reaction any more protective against a disease that may have already been transmitted, than simply blowing on the mosquito to get them to fly away?
Locust infestations happen because of shitty agricultural practices. If you’ve got a plot of land that’s full of nothing but copies of one tantalizing crop, then of course it’s going to be an obvious buffet for a vast amount of insects. Are veganic farming or veganic permaculture methods extreme? Or is it more extreme that our most common monocultural methods of farming are causing so much pollution that it’s bringing so many vital pollinators to the brink of extinction?
You make the same erroneous argument that many other carnists make, which is the idea that because vegan values can’t always be practiced perfectly, that somehow automatically means the entire ethical framework is without merit. But that’s obviously nonsensical. To the individual mosquito or mouse, it makes all the difference in their entire little lives, whether they incidentally pestered a vegan or carnist. It’s been estimated that a single vegan living their values results in about 200 fewer livestock animals being slaughtered every year. Is it extreme to live in a way that would end factory farms forever if we all embraced it, or what about the lifestyle that created them in the first place?
Nearly every half-baked gotcha that carnists try to catch vegans in has a common-sense practical answer. The example of predation in wild areas is a point of contention in vegan communities, whether we should intervene or not and ultimately make rather significant changes to the natural world, but presently it doesn’t really matter, because there are so many other obvious abuses that need to end.
Veganism only looks extreme from the deluded perspective of carnism. But in reality going vegan is like becoming sober, and recognizing how disturbing it was to live the way that so many continue to.
So are you meaning to imply that it’s racist to be vegan? Certainly like any other movement, veganism has a need for more intersectionality. And that outright nazi vegans exist is shitty. But to imply that the anomalous existence of a fringe nazi vegan community means that antispeciesism is in itself racist is completely false, and even misses the point of that very article you posted:
“White nationalist veganism can sound somewhat absurd, but it also shows how complex and deeply rooted this ideology is, and how it can appeal to a variety of different audiences. To combat these racist movements, we must understand them, including how they can incorporate beliefs we usually associate with liberal or leftist politics. The diversity of this movement should not be underestimated.”
Emphasis added. It is important not to allow bigots to hijack otherwise important movements for justice. If that’s something that matters to you, then you have even more reason to go vegan, because animal consumption is not only intrinsically racist, but it is demonstrably materially supporting the fascist institutions who are the largest threats to democracy.
I’m not keen on eating bugs, most of them just are similar in environmental damage as vegan food. Insects are also already in almost all processed foods because they are small and almost everywhere. They just don’t fall in the same category as what we in the western civilization typically consider meat (as a food).
I don’t really care. Abusing (using) animals for food and work is cruel anyway, if me not doing that because I think it’s wrong is good for the environment, great! If it’s not, fine, but it’s not why I do it.
That’s the thing. Ethics and impact on the environment can be two different things. If you decide to go that way, you’re fine. Do it. However we need animals for stated reasons. We have to eat less meat/generally consume less animal products.
Yup… I want those subsidies to shift to hemp production. So many far more useful products that will be able to be produced rather than food processors playing hide the corn. It is a drop in replacement for the ethanol in gas since the seeds are 30% oil.
But we don’t produce hemp, and megacorps go… Here’s another ethane cracker plant.
We do that so you can go to the store and actually find food. It’s so we don’t have another famine…has nothing to do with anything else you’re trying to point out.
So you’re telling me the government uses tax payer money to prop up your farm so that… we can actually find the food at the grocery stores?
And then with all that extra corn that you’re producing they have to find a myriad of other uses (like the syrup that making the entire country obese, for one)?
So clearly you’re way more enlightened on the subject since you own a farm, so why don’t you tell the class why subsidizing an unnecessarily oversized industry is a good thing.
Lol I don’t own an ag farm, but I’m in the farming community, and the gov. Props up farms so people like you don’t starve to death when we have a bad grow year or droughts…or any other reasons to keep the people who feed you from saying fuck this I quit.
Yes because all farms grow is corn and create sugar drinks…also we have an issue with obesity for a ton of different reasons and it’s not because of “big corn”.
Already did, you just don’t seem to understand that without keeping farmers afloat, the majority of them will fail and then you get to go outside and eat some grass and acorns…which the more likely thing to happen is you starve to death because you think food magically appears in the store two minutes from you.
Can it be improved? Sure, but acting like your food you eat is somehow going to magically be cheaper and more plentiful without keeping farmers from failing after a bad year is hilarious.
I disagree that raising and keeping animals because we want their products or labor is cruel, and I especially disagree that referring to that as abuse is useful.
What standard of cruelty and ethical framework are you using to come to your conclusion?
Edit: as stated in my other comment, I don’t believe that it’s cruel in principle; I’m not denying that the industry has cruel practices.
It may not be cruel in principle, but it is usually cruel in practice. Still, I like the the guiding principle to try to not let minor benefits to myself (e.g. an easier way to a nice meal) go above vital benefits of other creatures.
I was speaking in terms of principles rather than discussing practical reality. Of course cruel practices are common in farming in general and the meat industry in particular; I’m not disputing that.
If you disagree with me, you should be able to put in to words why you believe all instances (real and hypothetical) of keeping animals for the stated reasons should be considered cruel. If what I said is a strawman of your position, then you don’t disagree with what I meant to say.
It’s because fundamentally you are still commodifying whole living, thinking beings who have their own wills and lives they want to live. We need to reckon with the fact that it is unjust for us humans to think we have any right to declare other species of animals as property.
Ethical emotivism isn’t a self-consistent ethical framework. It’s arguably not even an ethics system; it’s a philosophical attitude towards ethics as a field of study.
Veganism is good for climate, biodiversity, health and animal welfare. We really don’t need to eat animals or animal products to have good meal and live a happy life. The good thing is that humans are omnivores, with a free choice of what to eat. Please choose wisely, not only for your own mental and physical health, but also for others, living now as well as in years to come.
So do it. While some people would argue vefpganism is ideal, the important part is “less meat”, especially less beef. I’d give kudos to anyone who eats one less beef meal per week: chicken is much easier in the environment than beef, or ne less meat meal,
Instead of pickering over words we could just acknowledge the underlying facts.
Those who can, and most people in western industrialized countries can, should reduce their meat consumption. For most of them veganism is a viable option, especially as there is easy access to doctors checking as well as supplements if there is difficulties.
There is no intrinsic need for animal protein or fats for a healthy diet.
The reduction of meat or even the total mandatory switch to all vegan diet won’t stop climate change since it’s such a small % in the total carbon footprint compared to our energy needs.
Your tribalism thoughts should be better focused on things like our need for clean energy like nuclear and solar.
I am neither vegan nor vegetarian, nor do i propose a mandatory switch to such diets. I also don’t mind people who primarily eat meat, as they are still traditional herders or hunters like in Central Asia or parts of Africa. But you know what these people don’t do? Fly on vacation twice a year, go on cruises, drive 20.000 km or more a year, consume 5 MWh of electricity per person and year…
The current way of animal farming with the current meat consumption results in about 10-17% of global GHG emissions. That is about the same emissions like all road traffic.
And unlike cars, where you could reduce the emissions effectively by using EVs, you simply cannot change a cow from emititting substantial amounts of methane, and the effects of the land conversion necessary for it’s feed.
Finally the argument, that X source of emission would be irrelevant to target since it is so small on the global scale is the prime whataboutism argument to not adress any emissions. “Oh our country is only making 1% of global emissions, we don’t have to change.” “Oh our industry could cut emissions in half in three years, but what about the other industry?”
People in western countries eat way too much meat. Any reduction to that is good, be it by reducing your meat consumption significantly or by switching to a vegetarian or vegan diet.
That is energy production. Its literally the primary problem. It’s 79% of the world’s pollution. Everything starts here. Focus your anger here. Talk to your local representatives about this core problem. We need cleaner energy production, like nuclear, solar, wind or whatever magic shit smart inventors comes up with. We also need better battery technology to store said energy. We needed that yesterday.
https://www.wri.org/insights/interactive-chart-shows-changes-worlds-top-10-emitters
If today we banned all fossil fuels, it would *instantly *fix climate change. While changing nothing else.
Can’t be said about meat production. Your effort quite literally does nothing for our climate. It’s the fossil fuel industry switching the blame from them to us, the people. We are not the problem. Our diet is not the problem.
Your rhetoric only divides us. Focus on banning fossil fuels.
Everyone needs nutrients they can digest. The source doesn’t matter under these conditions. Excluding rare medical cases, everyone can get all required nutrients from non-animal sources, ergo everyone can have and live a perfectly healthy life on a vegan diet.
Meat has more than just protein. It has so many micronutrients that your body needs that you would have to take a shit ton of supplements to just come close to it. Sure, you can survive without those micronutrients. But why go through all the trouble?
I don’t understand veganism enough to speak about it and don’t care enough to look into it. I’ll take your word for it though.
Meat production is in the single digits in actual global pollution. The problem isn’t our diet. The problem is the fossil fuel industry which contributes to 79+% of the world’s pollution. If I had a light switch that can turn off all meat production, nothing would change. If I did the same for fossil fuels, it would instantly stop climate change.
Focus on who the enemy is here. It’s not us, the people. It’s the fossil fuel industry. Demand change from your government. We need clean energy from things like nuclear, solar, wind and whatever new innovation comes from government investments.
We don’t need animals to consume plants we can’t, because plant food is soooo goddamn more efficient on every metric. We can drastically reduce land, water and energy usage AND still feed way more people with plant foods. We simply do not need to eat animals.
Any form of “sustainable” animal farming I’ve read up on end up being still less resource efficient than plant foods, AND obviously massively reduced output. So we’re truly talking about vegan vs. an ounce of meat a week. That’s not a difference worth defending, considering the other obvious ethical issues.
Finally, why do you feel that it’s important to argue for “99%” veganism? Do you genuinely believe people don’t understand that less is better, but none is best? Do you apply the same argument to other ethical issues, like feminism? Being 99% feminist is a big improvement, but constantly arguing for it in favor of feminism (aka 100%) would obviously look ridiculous. Finally, don’t you realize the humongous difference between “we should abuse animals for our pleasure less” vs. “we shouldn’t do that”? A whole class of racism disappears if we get rid of the association between “animal” and “lesser moral consideration”.
why do you feel that it’s important to argue for “99%” veganism
This argument relies on false assumptions about my ethics and an incorrect representation of my position. First: I don’t want to reduce meat consumption/production by any specific ammount; I am currently unconvinced that removing domestic animals from food production entirely is maximally efficient, but think it’s clear that the current ammount of meat is unsustainable and thus must be reduced by some ammount that is currently unknown to me. Furthermore, I don’t believe that all living things qualify as “people” for moral considerations. Since I do not believe all living things are people unless proven otherwise, why should I consider all animals as people unless proven otherwise? There are certain animals that I consider to be people and thus give moral consideration equal to humans such as certain species of corvid, dolphins, elephants, and octopi which have demonstrated traits that make me believe they should qualify. In order to convince me, you need to either provide me an alternative definition of a person and demonstrate why it’s superior or to show me that all animals fit into my definition of person.
Edit: forgot to mention your other argument, but simply put it’s also off the mark. While I agree that eating plants directly is more efficient, that doesn’t address the thesis of my argument. So long as there exists circumstances such that we produce plant matter (as a waste product) that an animal can consume and humans do not in quantities sufficient to feed a stock of animals of some size including those animals in food production and feeding them the plant matter is more efficient than throwing away that plant matter. Your argument needs to be more robust.
If you were open for a discussion and for the possibility to change your views, you wouldn’t have used bogus arguments. I just wanted to point those out, as it is probably meaningless to waste my time in a discussion with you anyway.
Lookup veganic farming, and veganic permaculture. The idea that animal ag has any place in combating global warming is demonstrably false, and was nothing more than a greenwashed hijacking of the other various regenerative agricultural movements. There is no room in neither a just world, or a sustainable one, for the exploitation and consumption of animals.
Most of the vegan food we grow is fed to animals, so we can eat them. Feeding and housing animals for food consumption purposes requires 83% of our total farmland, but produces only 18% of our calorific intake.
If the world went vegan, we’d only use 25% of the farm land we currently do, meaning we don’t need to use that “difficult to farm” land.
Unfortunately there is literally no valid argument against veganism. If there were, I wouldn’t be vegan.
Veganism isn’t better for the environment than significantly reducing the total amount of consumed meat. Animals play an important, difficult-to-replace role in making agriculture sustainable. Animals can be herded on land that’s difficult to farm on, animals can consume parts of farmed plants that humans cannot, and animals produce products that humans cannot replicate without significantly more work.
Edit: I see a bunch of vegans who aren’t really engaging with the argument. To be clear, anyone who makes statements about how things are right now to try to disprove this is probably arguing in bad faith. I’m not responding to comments anymore because, while it’s entirely possible that I’m wrong, y’all aren’t making any good points.
Furthermore, I’m not anti-vegan, but now I’m tempted to be. So many people I’ve engaged with have displayed all of the worst vegan stereotypes I’ve heard about. I’ve always assumed it was chuds making shit up, but no I just hadn’t met any of the terminally online creeps in the vegan community yet OMFG.
Yes, we need to significantly reduce the amount of consumed meat (maybe not insects, if we consider them meat). A step towards more vegan and vegetarian food would definitely be necessary. Yes, not everyone needs to be vegan. But we need to consume way more vegan and vegetarian food.
Insects are meat. Why are you so keen on eating bugs?
Well lobster tastes pretty good so I’m pretty hopeful about the land bugs.
Mmmmm, spiders!
I actually don’t like lobster (I prefer the meatless versions) but that’s a fair point.
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There is a general consensus that insects are not considered equal in terms of animal cruelty like mammals, as they have much smaller and simpler nerve systems.
In regards to ecological imprint insects have a much better feed to food ratio and you can feed them much more things than to grazing animals.
I agree that insects are generally less ethically significant than mammals, but as far as using English food category words I don’t see how it’s useful to draw a hard distinction between the category of “meat” and the category of “insects who’s bodies can be cooked and eaten”.
The reason I asked the question is that I noticed they made multiple comments about eating insects and I was curious as to the motivations behind their position.
In vegan communities insects are very much extended the same moral considerations as other animals. What you’re advocating is a form of speciesism, which is something better avoided as much as possible.
Anti-specieism is an argument often brought by vegan fascists, arguing that killing humans is no worse than killing mosquitos.
Also the concept of avoiding specieism fails the moment you look into nature. Is the cat that eats a mouse a speciest? Should you let mosquitos bite you and transmit diseases because killing them would be speciest? Are the farmers in Southern Africa that are plagued by locusts speciest for trying to protect their harvest?
Probably you would consider these examples as legitimate. But what about the building of the house you reside in? The production of your electronics, your energy usage…
It is impossible to make a consistent value frame of what is acceptable killing of animals and what isn’t, if you deem an individual fly as equally protectworthy as a sheep or a human.
Vegan fascists? The people who are trying to put an end to the forced captivity, continuous torture, rape, exploitation, commodification, and perpetual holocaust-levels of slaughter of virtually every species of animal that is not human, are fascists?
Here’s the most commonly accepted definition of veganism:
Emphasis added. The vast majority of vegans do not believe that killing a mosquito is exactly equivalent to killing a human, and even of the people who do, it’s intended to imply that all species lives are important, that the mosquito’s life is seen as equally valuable to the human’s. The only reason such a proposition seems abhorrent to you is because you’re looking at the mosquito through the lens of your carnist supremacist mindset, which is to see the mosquito as something worthless and thus conclude that a human’s life is considered by vegans to be equally worthless.
But again, like everyone else vegans take anti-speciesism only as far as is practical. We just do it better. The mosquito bite is easy. If you know mosquitos are around, it’s wise to wear repellent, and take other appropriate precautions depending on your circumstances. Maybe modify your environment if possible to be less of a breeding ground for them, if it’s bad enough. If you’re dealing with a particular mosquito, odds are they have already bitten you, so how is the lethal carnist reaction any more protective against a disease that may have already been transmitted, than simply blowing on the mosquito to get them to fly away?
Locust infestations happen because of shitty agricultural practices. If you’ve got a plot of land that’s full of nothing but copies of one tantalizing crop, then of course it’s going to be an obvious buffet for a vast amount of insects. Are veganic farming or veganic permaculture methods extreme? Or is it more extreme that our most common monocultural methods of farming are causing so much pollution that it’s bringing so many vital pollinators to the brink of extinction?
You make the same erroneous argument that many other carnists make, which is the idea that because vegan values can’t always be practiced perfectly, that somehow automatically means the entire ethical framework is without merit. But that’s obviously nonsensical. To the individual mosquito or mouse, it makes all the difference in their entire little lives, whether they incidentally pestered a vegan or carnist. It’s been estimated that a single vegan living their values results in about 200 fewer livestock animals being slaughtered every year. Is it extreme to live in a way that would end factory farms forever if we all embraced it, or what about the lifestyle that created them in the first place?
Nearly every half-baked gotcha that carnists try to catch vegans in has a common-sense practical answer. The example of predation in wild areas is a point of contention in vegan communities, whether we should intervene or not and ultimately make rather significant changes to the natural world, but presently it doesn’t really matter, because there are so many other obvious abuses that need to end.
Veganism only looks extreme from the deluded perspective of carnism. But in reality going vegan is like becoming sober, and recognizing how disturbing it was to live the way that so many continue to.
Those guys:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/evb4zw/why-so-many-white-supremacists-are-into-veganism
And those guys (German Article):
https://www.belltower.news/vegane-nazis-wie-rechstextreme-mit-ihre-ernaehrung-ideologisieren-91901/
So are you meaning to imply that it’s racist to be vegan? Certainly like any other movement, veganism has a need for more intersectionality. And that outright nazi vegans exist is shitty. But to imply that the anomalous existence of a fringe nazi vegan community means that antispeciesism is in itself racist is completely false, and even misses the point of that very article you posted:
Emphasis added. It is important not to allow bigots to hijack otherwise important movements for justice. If that’s something that matters to you, then you have even more reason to go vegan, because animal consumption is not only intrinsically racist, but it is demonstrably materially supporting the fascist institutions who are the largest threats to democracy.
https://www.christophersebastian.info/post/2018/10/20/if-veganism-is-racist-and-classist-bad-news-for-nonveganism
https://www.christophersebastian.info/post/they-want-to-take-away-your-hamburgers-animal-exploitation-and-white-nationalism
https://www.christophersebastian.info/post/2018/07/29/sorry-conservative-vegans-animal-rights-is-political-e2-80-a6and-it-leans-left
I’m not keen on eating bugs, most of them just are similar in environmental damage as vegan food. Insects are also already in almost all processed foods because they are small and almost everywhere. They just don’t fall in the same category as what we in the western civilization typically consider meat (as a food).
I don’t really care. Abusing (using) animals for food and work is cruel anyway, if me not doing that because I think it’s wrong is good for the environment, great! If it’s not, fine, but it’s not why I do it.
That’s the thing. Ethics and impact on the environment can be two different things. If you decide to go that way, you’re fine. Do it. However we need animals for stated reasons. We have to eat less meat/generally consume less animal products.
We also need to stop overproducing everything. America makes far too much corn, because/and the industry is heavily subsidized.
The amount of food waste in North America is astounding. Completely unnecessary.
True. That’s the same with everything. As long as it is worth to produce stuff just to throw it away we will damage our planet more and more.
Yup… I want those subsidies to shift to hemp production. So many far more useful products that will be able to be produced rather than food processors playing hide the corn. It is a drop in replacement for the ethanol in gas since the seeds are 30% oil.
But we don’t produce hemp, and megacorps go… Here’s another ethane cracker plant.
We do that so you can go to the store and actually find food. It’s so we don’t have another famine…has nothing to do with anything else you’re trying to point out.
You have zero idea what you are talking about.
Yea totally, no clue what I’m talking about at all, just own a farm and understand our food economy…but nope no clue.
So you’re telling me the government uses tax payer money to prop up your farm so that… we can actually find the food at the grocery stores?
And then with all that extra corn that you’re producing they have to find a myriad of other uses (like the syrup that making the entire country obese, for one)?
So clearly you’re way more enlightened on the subject since you own a farm, so why don’t you tell the class why subsidizing an unnecessarily oversized industry is a good thing.
Don’t shy away from this. You’re the expert.
Lol I don’t own an ag farm, but I’m in the farming community, and the gov. Props up farms so people like you don’t starve to death when we have a bad grow year or droughts…or any other reasons to keep the people who feed you from saying fuck this I quit.
Yes because all farms grow is corn and create sugar drinks…also we have an issue with obesity for a ton of different reasons and it’s not because of “big corn”.
Already did, you just don’t seem to understand that without keeping farmers afloat, the majority of them will fail and then you get to go outside and eat some grass and acorns…which the more likely thing to happen is you starve to death because you think food magically appears in the store two minutes from you.
Can it be improved? Sure, but acting like your food you eat is somehow going to magically be cheaper and more plentiful without keeping farmers from failing after a bad year is hilarious.
No, animal captivity, exploitation, rape, slaughter, and consumption are all things that are very much unnecessary, and are detrimental in many ways.
I disagree that raising and keeping animals because we want their products or labor is cruel, and I especially disagree that referring to that as abuse is useful.
What standard of cruelty and ethical framework are you using to come to your conclusion?
Edit: as stated in my other comment, I don’t believe that it’s cruel in principle; I’m not denying that the industry has cruel practices.
It may not be cruel in principle, but it is usually cruel in practice. Still, I like the the guiding principle to try to not let minor benefits to myself (e.g. an easier way to a nice meal) go above vital benefits of other creatures.
I was speaking in terms of principles rather than discussing practical reality. Of course cruel practices are common in farming in general and the meat industry in particular; I’m not disputing that.
Edit: Why TF am I being downvoted?
How is it not cruel?
https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch
I’m not watching a vegan shock video.
If you disagree with me, you should be able to put in to words why you believe all instances (real and hypothetical) of keeping animals for the stated reasons should be considered cruel. If what I said is a strawman of your position, then you don’t disagree with what I meant to say.
It’s because fundamentally you are still commodifying whole living, thinking beings who have their own wills and lives they want to live. We need to reckon with the fact that it is unjust for us humans to think we have any right to declare other species of animals as property.
Ethical emotivism. A framework most people use, although few admit it.
Ethical emotivism isn’t a self-consistent ethical framework. It’s arguably not even an ethics system; it’s a philosophical attitude towards ethics as a field of study.
Veganism is good for climate, biodiversity, health and animal welfare. We really don’t need to eat animals or animal products to have good meal and live a happy life. The good thing is that humans are omnivores, with a free choice of what to eat. Please choose wisely, not only for your own mental and physical health, but also for others, living now as well as in years to come.
Not everyone can eat a pure vegan diet. We are omnivores. We don’t get to pick, we must eat it all to stay healthy.
So do it. While some people would argue vefpganism is ideal, the important part is “less meat”, especially less beef. I’d give kudos to anyone who eats one less beef meal per week: chicken is much easier in the environment than beef, or ne less meat meal,
The word Ideal is very generic. Ideal to who? What is ideal? Your health? The climate? Your bowel movement?
Meat contributes a ton of CO2. 15% of global output in just beef alone. Pork and Chicken is better.
Instead of pickering over words we could just acknowledge the underlying facts.
Those who can, and most people in western industrialized countries can, should reduce their meat consumption. For most of them veganism is a viable option, especially as there is easy access to doctors checking as well as supplements if there is difficulties.
There is no intrinsic need for animal protein or fats for a healthy diet.
The reduction of meat or even the total mandatory switch to all vegan diet won’t stop climate change since it’s such a small % in the total carbon footprint compared to our energy needs.
Your tribalism thoughts should be better focused on things like our need for clean energy like nuclear and solar.
I am neither vegan nor vegetarian, nor do i propose a mandatory switch to such diets. I also don’t mind people who primarily eat meat, as they are still traditional herders or hunters like in Central Asia or parts of Africa. But you know what these people don’t do? Fly on vacation twice a year, go on cruises, drive 20.000 km or more a year, consume 5 MWh of electricity per person and year…
The current way of animal farming with the current meat consumption results in about 10-17% of global GHG emissions. That is about the same emissions like all road traffic.
And unlike cars, where you could reduce the emissions effectively by using EVs, you simply cannot change a cow from emititting substantial amounts of methane, and the effects of the land conversion necessary for it’s feed.
Finally the argument, that X source of emission would be irrelevant to target since it is so small on the global scale is the prime whataboutism argument to not adress any emissions. “Oh our country is only making 1% of global emissions, we don’t have to change.” “Oh our industry could cut emissions in half in three years, but what about the other industry?”
People in western countries eat way too much meat. Any reduction to that is good, be it by reducing your meat consumption significantly or by switching to a vegetarian or vegan diet.
Vehicle emissions are closer to 25-30% of the total emissions. The mass majority of it is in passenger/truck vehicles. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-greenhouse-gas-emissions
I want to point out that cruises are not the problem. While it is a problem, it’s not significant enough to warrant mentioning.
Aviation contributes around 2.7%. Again, it’s a problem. I get it. But we need to focus the biggest polluters here first. https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-transport.
That is energy production. Its literally the primary problem. It’s 79% of the world’s pollution. Everything starts here. Focus your anger here. Talk to your local representatives about this core problem. We need cleaner energy production, like nuclear, solar, wind or whatever magic shit smart inventors comes up with. We also need better battery technology to store said energy. We needed that yesterday. https://www.wri.org/insights/interactive-chart-shows-changes-worlds-top-10-emitters
If today we banned all fossil fuels, it would *instantly *fix climate change. While changing nothing else.
Can’t be said about meat production. Your effort quite literally does nothing for our climate. It’s the fossil fuel industry switching the blame from them to us, the people. We are not the problem. Our diet is not the problem.
Your rhetoric only divides us. Focus on banning fossil fuels.
Everyone needs nutrients they can digest. The source doesn’t matter under these conditions. Excluding rare medical cases, everyone can get all required nutrients from non-animal sources, ergo everyone can have and live a perfectly healthy life on a vegan diet.
Meat has more than just protein. It has so many micronutrients that your body needs that you would have to take a shit ton of supplements to just come close to it. Sure, you can survive without those micronutrients. But why go through all the trouble?
If you would’ve taken a dive into healthy vegan diets, you would know that this isn’t true.
I thought we already established that in the comments here.
I don’t understand veganism enough to speak about it and don’t care enough to look into it. I’ll take your word for it though.
Meat production is in the single digits in actual global pollution. The problem isn’t our diet. The problem is the fossil fuel industry which contributes to 79+% of the world’s pollution. If I had a light switch that can turn off all meat production, nothing would change. If I did the same for fossil fuels, it would instantly stop climate change.
Focus on who the enemy is here. It’s not us, the people. It’s the fossil fuel industry. Demand change from your government. We need clean energy from things like nuclear, solar, wind and whatever new innovation comes from government investments.
https://www.wri.org/insights/interactive-chart-shows-changes-worlds-top-10-emitters#:~:text=Since reporting began in 1990%2C the energy sector,sector%2C representing 76%25 of global emissions in 2019.
We don’t need animals to consume plants we can’t, because plant food is soooo goddamn more efficient on every metric. We can drastically reduce land, water and energy usage AND still feed way more people with plant foods. We simply do not need to eat animals.
Any form of “sustainable” animal farming I’ve read up on end up being still less resource efficient than plant foods, AND obviously massively reduced output. So we’re truly talking about vegan vs. an ounce of meat a week. That’s not a difference worth defending, considering the other obvious ethical issues.
Finally, why do you feel that it’s important to argue for “99%” veganism? Do you genuinely believe people don’t understand that less is better, but none is best? Do you apply the same argument to other ethical issues, like feminism? Being 99% feminist is a big improvement, but constantly arguing for it in favor of feminism (aka 100%) would obviously look ridiculous. Finally, don’t you realize the humongous difference between “we should abuse animals for our pleasure less” vs. “we shouldn’t do that”? A whole class of racism disappears if we get rid of the association between “animal” and “lesser moral consideration”.
This argument relies on false assumptions about my ethics and an incorrect representation of my position. First: I don’t want to reduce meat consumption/production by any specific ammount; I am currently unconvinced that removing domestic animals from food production entirely is maximally efficient, but think it’s clear that the current ammount of meat is unsustainable and thus must be reduced by some ammount that is currently unknown to me. Furthermore, I don’t believe that all living things qualify as “people” for moral considerations. Since I do not believe all living things are people unless proven otherwise, why should I consider all animals as people unless proven otherwise? There are certain animals that I consider to be people and thus give moral consideration equal to humans such as certain species of corvid, dolphins, elephants, and octopi which have demonstrated traits that make me believe they should qualify. In order to convince me, you need to either provide me an alternative definition of a person and demonstrate why it’s superior or to show me that all animals fit into my definition of person.
Edit: forgot to mention your other argument, but simply put it’s also off the mark. While I agree that eating plants directly is more efficient, that doesn’t address the thesis of my argument. So long as there exists circumstances such that we produce plant matter (as a waste product) that an animal can consume and humans do not in quantities sufficient to feed a stock of animals of some size including those animals in food production and feeding them the plant matter is more efficient than throwing away that plant matter. Your argument needs to be more robust.
Have fun eating grass, drinking nonpotable water and eating roots and stalks and rotting vegetables…you militant vegans are hilarious.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man ✔️
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma ✔️
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem ✔️
Yes because calling out the bullshit is a strawman, you might wanna go read your own links lol.
See above.
Yes you really told me, damn…thanks for the discussion you’ve changed my mind.
If you were open for a discussion and for the possibility to change your views, you wouldn’t have used bogus arguments. I just wanted to point those out, as it is probably meaningless to waste my time in a discussion with you anyway.
Says the user who’s only argument was to just call my statement a straw man…fuck outta here.
Lookup veganic farming, and veganic permaculture. The idea that animal ag has any place in combating global warming is demonstrably false, and was nothing more than a greenwashed hijacking of the other various regenerative agricultural movements. There is no room in neither a just world, or a sustainable one, for the exploitation and consumption of animals.
https://www.surgeactivism.org/allansavory
Most of the vegan food we grow is fed to animals, so we can eat them. Feeding and housing animals for food consumption purposes requires 83% of our total farmland, but produces only 18% of our calorific intake.
If the world went vegan, we’d only use 25% of the farm land we currently do, meaning we don’t need to use that “difficult to farm” land.
Unfortunately there is literally no valid argument against veganism. If there were, I wouldn’t be vegan.
Sir you forget that in China there are pig condos