Ok, Trump aside, do you remember the US response to the 9-11 attacks?
Israel is bang out of order, but it doesn’t help that the groundwork for dealing with “terrorists” on a global scale was laid by the US.
Remember renaming French fries to “Freedom Fries” because the French dared to oppose the invasion of Iraq, a country that had very little to do with the terrorist act?
I remember it very well. They did plenty of cringe stuff including burning Dixie Chicks CDs, sure.
But I don’t remember them having a chart-topping song about murdering women in other countries they were not at war with, let alone women who were citizens of nations that are their own allies.
Do you really think there weren’t people in the US, prominent people, people in politics and in the media, calling for the death of innocent Muslims?
There were tons of public calls for some of the most brutal forms of reprisal. There were mass burnings of the Koran.
Did you miss the bit where the US invaded an entire country that had, it turns out, nothing to do with the terrorist attack at all?
I’m not saying any of what is happening in Israel is right. Far from it. But the idea that the US is somehow in a position of moral superiority here is wild.
You seem to be adopting a revisionist past where actually all they did was rename some fries in the cafeteria of their actual government.
The absolute torrent of global hatred that spewed out through the mainstream US media dwarfed what we are currently seeing from Israel, in terms of both soft insinuation and outright calls for death.
Dutch guy here. We had our own 9/11 event when Russians shot MH17 out of the air which contained 200 Dutch people. You know what we did? We prosecuted those responsible (in absentia) and they will be arrested once they enter Dutch soil. No kids were harmed in the process (apart from those on the plane). Israel’s response of collective punishment is bad shit crazy!
In EU, we know the cost of any wars and the fact creating a new circle of violence doesn’t resolve anything.
We don’t have one village without a monument commemorating the dead people from the past wars. Everybody have at least a family member who fight or died because of a war… Just go one or two generations in the past (in my case my grandmother lost 2 sisters in WW2, my grandfather was captured and sent in acamp for 2 years and managed to escape and walk back to south of France. My other grandfather family moved to France because of Franco repression in Spain, another cycle of violence…)
All my ancestors have fought for the land i’m currently on during thousand of years… We have thousand of years of war history behind us… against germany, against the UK, against the whole EU at some point “thanks” to Napoleon, and i could go to the medieval time, or even before when we fighted against Rome…
And you know what? I work everyday with Germans, British, Italian people… I didn’t kill them because they are not responsible of their leaders actions and country history…
You prosecute the responsibles of an attack (in the worse case you sent a little squad to assassinate the leaders if they hide and plan to harm you again) BUT you don’t murder all the civilians around to achieve this result. This is madness and incompetence. And that create a new cycle of violence that your children will have to pay at some point…
Or look at it and realize you can get away with it, even if it’s a sloppy war because the citizens don’t care if they lose as long as the other side still dies
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were never particularly popular (especially when they dragged on for years). It’s just that the political class doesn’t care about what the people want.
Look at why it was unpopular. Everyone agreed it was bad for troops. Most believed it was a mistake to go at all, but a sizable portion believed it was the tactic that was wrong, that the war should have started and ended on the same day with nukes.
Yeah you could argue that what Israel is doing is much smaller in terms of body count. Iraq and Afghanistan cost million lives+ and many more ruined. Israel is only at 30-40k so far.
But the quality bluntness of propaganda and cruelty of warfare is definitely different. The palestinian people have been imprisoned on a tiny strip of land and have nowhere to go.
I’ve been wondering why nobody has brought this clear comparison up before. The progressive left knows this will only antagonize the right wing. Since the objective is to save innocent civilian lives and get a ceasefire and not to score political points, they don’t draw the parallel.
And the liberals and right wing are excusing Israels behavior because subconsciously they know they did the same thing. So if Israel is guilty, so is the US.
The only one getting political points from the comparison is Russia to keep the atrocity by Israel going, damage the Reputation of the US and distract from their own war. Well or Israel possibly. Not accusing you at all, just musing from an “information warfare” perspective.
It happens everywhere, with increasing frequency. Depending on who’s calling for killing who, it’s either praised or giggled at or condemned. Off the top of my head…
Who is he calling for the marines to kill? I don’t see it in the lyrics at all. Sure, it talks about war (it’s essentially a hardcore version of the Star Spangled Banner, which talks about bombing). And the song was never as big as the song in the article. Additionally, this was over 20 years ago, which is a lot of time to change. That’s like saying that people can’t be upset at other countries for discriminating against LGBTQ+ people because American TV in the early 2000’s had jokes at their expense. Things change.
He’s calling for the killing of Iraqis, you know people in Iraq. You know, those innocent civilians the American government lied about having weapons of mass destruction. Then Toby Keith’s dream came true and the US set about levelling their land and killing millions of Iraqis.
Why the fuck does 20 years matter? Your statement did not mention a timeline. Show some integrity.
Where does he even say that? Or are you one of those people that say “look at what I think was implied”? I looked through the lyrics, where does it call for killing people in Iraq? My statement didn’t mention a timeline because I had no idea idiots like you were going to come in with no point other than country music is bad. You’re not contributing anything to the conversation about the actual post, like any American you’ve made this all about yourself.
I don’t even understand what your point is. Are you okay with the song in the article because there’s some pretty batshit insane country songs? What the fuck do you mean show some integrity? You came up in here and just said went ‘nuh uh, America bad!’. What’s your point? How does this relate to the advocating of killing singers who are of Arabic decent? Do you have anything so actually say here other than whataboutism?
Like others who have responded I’ve simply pointed out an example that refutes your statement. You don’t seem to be capable of even opening the smallest sliver of your mind to the possibility that anyone else might have a rational different perspective on this matter. It’s tiresome.
Where does he even say that? Or are you one of those people that say “look at what I think was implied”? I looked through the lyrics, where does it call for killing people in Iraq? My statement didn’t mention a timeline because I had no idea idiots like you were going to come in with no point other than country music is bad. You’re not contributing anything to the conversation about the actual post, like any American you’ve made this all about yourself.
What the fuck are you trying to prove? I’ve waisted so much time talking with you fucking dolts that aren’t even talking about this article.
20 years is a lot of time for a 20 year old, right?
The bigger picture is that 20 years is still very recent history.
That’s like saying that people can’t be upset at other countries for discriminating against LGBTQ+ people because American TV in the early 2000’s had jokes at their expense
Yeah. It is. The fact the US still has TV shows that make those jokes, the very fact that morality is relative to the US is sort of the problem here. At best it is imperialism. At worst it is rank hypocrisy.
Your anti-America glasses are making you miss the point so fucking hard there’s no point trying to talk to you. But just know, countries other than USA can be bad too. You don’t need to use the USA as a litmus test for if something is right.
How about you read the lyrics and see that for all of the patriotic bluster, they don’t even say a group or nation that of people should be on the receiving end of the requested military force. Just that they should go do the thing somewhere to the people who hit first. You’re comparing that to someone calling out specific people for death.
I hope you can see why your comparison immediately falls apart.
calling for the military to go and kill a citizen of another country
Are Iraqis in Iraq not citizens of another country?
Have you read the lyrics? Do you struggle with understanding context?
Oh, and justice will be served and the battle will rage
This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage
And you’ll be sorry that you messed with
The U.S. of A.
‘Cause we’ll put a boot in your ass
It’s the American way
Hey Uncle Sam, put your name at the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty started shakin’ her fist
And the eagle will fly it’s gonna be hell
When you hear mother freedom start ringin’ her bell
And it’ll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Oh, brought to you courtesy of the red white and blue
I’m picking Trump ones because he’s a big, easy target & the examples are easily found. Not because I endorse Trump. It also showcases how extreme violence is given a platform, praised. But there are plenty more examples just a Google search away.
So it’s fine for people to depict killing a POTUS all the time, and other people you don’t like. That’s acceptable. Kill the white farmers in South Africa, after all, they’re part of an oppressor class & they deserve it. SHOOT to KILL. But calling for the death of 3 random people is a line too far, I guess? 🤨
Your qualms with this are just the result of a culture with no guardrails, no moral foundation. Human life isn’t considered sacred. We tolerate & celebrate depictions of death all the time. This only encourages senseless mass shootings, violence.
You’re really looking for a straw man argument for this, and I don’t even understand why. The release and reception of this song is vile, there is no need to try and grandstand and go “actually…”
You’re allowed to say something is fucked up without having to mention everything else fucked up and discuss which is more fucked up. You’re wasting energy on the stupidest thing.
We can understand why that’s like, not a very concrete justification to be against espousing violence, right? I also find it weird, right, that we’re doing this step-around thing, where you’re calling everyone out for the hypocrisy of, oh, well, people are against this violence, but they’re not against this violence? Have you maybe considered that the two forms of violence are distinct? Perhaps that the two forms of violence are actually not similar? That people have reasons for, say, wanting violence against one party, but not another?
That’s what they’re commenting about. You say “it’s either all okay or none of it’s okay” because it encourages violence, right, but, I am giving you an opportunity to show your work, when it comes to this very basic claim, upon which rests the rest of your argument.
“shot in the head” that’s misrepresentation big time. He shoots a gun towards the clowns head but it’s one of those gag guns with a flag coming out with the word “bang” on it… Which rhymes with Trump being depicted as a clown. It’s far more metaphorical than the other examples and you need to be pretty fucking dense to see it as a call for violence against Trump or anyone else.
The Israeli one and the South African ones are in my opinion comparable in that they both call for explicit violence and their only defense is basically “it’s art, I can do what I want”
Call to violence might be a stretch. However, I think it’s either incredibly naive or incredibly dishonest to overlook the depiction of a gun, pointed at a person, the trigger being pulled, the gun going bang, and the president/clown flinching in response.
You only point a gun at something if you intend to shoot it, possibly kill it. There is no exception.
It is indeed an artistic expression & not real, but the imagery is unmistakable. He casually plays out this scene & displays it to the world, basically saying, “Yeah, if this happened…I’m totally okay with this. I put this in my rap videos. No big deal.”
And I think a lot of people on Lemmy feel the same way about Trump.
You’re right, it’s not a national thing, but it’s not okay. The one with Snoop Dogg is a bit different though, because Trump is also inciting violence, so he made himself a legitimate target for responses like that.
Why do you consider Hamas not inciting violence? And the many Palestinians and pro-palestinian protestors who openly ask to eradicate Israel and Israelis, Jews and so on?
I don’t think any of the fucked up countries song of the last 5 years get close to this. People forget 9/11 was over 20 years ago, that’s an entire generation worth of change. Disney was racist in the past, doesn’t mean it’s an excuse for others to be racists now.
That’s what I meant; sure there may have been songs with this stuff in them but they rarely become if ever have become hits. Usually it’s a career killer.
Can we stop acting like Israel is fucking normal? This shit doesn’t even happen in the US.
“This shit doesn’t even happen in the US”
Ok, Trump aside, do you remember the US response to the 9-11 attacks?
Israel is bang out of order, but it doesn’t help that the groundwork for dealing with “terrorists” on a global scale was laid by the US.
Remember renaming French fries to “Freedom Fries” because the French dared to oppose the invasion of Iraq, a country that had very little to do with the terrorist act?
I remember it very well. They did plenty of cringe stuff including burning Dixie Chicks CDs, sure.
But I don’t remember them having a chart-topping song about murdering women in other countries they were not at war with, let alone women who were citizens of nations that are their own allies.
Ok, maybe not that blunt, but it was there. The blueprint and the absurd patriotism that wandered into hostile.
France was a US ally too. And the rhetoric coming out wasn’t from some young men that make pop music but from grown men politicians.
US exceptionalism is one of the factors that has led us here, is what I’m saying.
Sure. The US appetite for supporting Israel is a major factor.
But renaming your chips is not as bad as publicly calls for assassinating people being at the top of your charts.
Israel are going full mask-off genocidal. There are “blueprints” in many other genocides.
Do you really think there weren’t people in the US, prominent people, people in politics and in the media, calling for the death of innocent Muslims?
There were tons of public calls for some of the most brutal forms of reprisal. There were mass burnings of the Koran.
Did you miss the bit where the US invaded an entire country that had, it turns out, nothing to do with the terrorist attack at all?
I’m not saying any of what is happening in Israel is right. Far from it. But the idea that the US is somehow in a position of moral superiority here is wild.
You seem to be adopting a revisionist past where actually all they did was rename some fries in the cafeteria of their actual government.
The absolute torrent of global hatred that spewed out through the mainstream US media dwarfed what we are currently seeing from Israel, in terms of both soft insinuation and outright calls for death.
It’s not an idea I’m espousing. I think perhaps we’re misunderstanding each other.
Dutch guy here. We had our own 9/11 event when Russians shot MH17 out of the air which contained 200 Dutch people. You know what we did? We prosecuted those responsible (in absentia) and they will be arrested once they enter Dutch soil. No kids were harmed in the process (apart from those on the plane). Israel’s response of collective punishment is bad shit crazy!
Sounds like you did absolutely nothing
First, do no harm? What benefit did the US enjoy from attacking Afghanistan?
In EU, we know the cost of any wars and the fact creating a new circle of violence doesn’t resolve anything.
We don’t have one village without a monument commemorating the dead people from the past wars. Everybody have at least a family member who fight or died because of a war… Just go one or two generations in the past (in my case my grandmother lost 2 sisters in WW2, my grandfather was captured and sent in acamp for 2 years and managed to escape and walk back to south of France. My other grandfather family moved to France because of Franco repression in Spain, another cycle of violence…)
All my ancestors have fought for the land i’m currently on during thousand of years… We have thousand of years of war history behind us… against germany, against the UK, against the whole EU at some point “thanks” to Napoleon, and i could go to the medieval time, or even before when we fighted against Rome… And you know what? I work everyday with Germans, British, Italian people… I didn’t kill them because they are not responsible of their leaders actions and country history…
You prosecute the responsibles of an attack (in the worse case you sent a little squad to assassinate the leaders if they hide and plan to harm you again) BUT you don’t murder all the civilians around to achieve this result. This is madness and incompetence. And that create a new cycle of violence that your children will have to pay at some point…
Amen. War is a total systemic failure.
As a Dutch guy, I’m also very glad that we’re sending weapons to Ukraine.
You know why? Because we DO have a score to settle. I hope our guns, ammo and fighter jets kill as many Russians as possible.
The Netherlands would never go to war over MH17. But every single dead Russian killed with our weapons will be a delight to many.
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I dunno - mounting evidence seems to point to the hypothesis a few less imperialists wouldn’t hurt.
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You would think that someone would look at the last 20 years of war on terror and conclude that maybe you shouldn’t handle it the way the US did.
Or look at it and realize you can get away with it, even if it’s a sloppy war because the citizens don’t care if they lose as long as the other side still dies
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were never particularly popular (especially when they dragged on for years). It’s just that the political class doesn’t care about what the people want.
Look at why it was unpopular. Everyone agreed it was bad for troops. Most believed it was a mistake to go at all, but a sizable portion believed it was the tactic that was wrong, that the war should have started and ended on the same day with nukes.
Yeah you could argue that what Israel is doing is much smaller in terms of body count. Iraq and Afghanistan cost million lives+ and many more ruined. Israel is only at 30-40k so far.
But the quality bluntness of propaganda and cruelty of warfare is definitely different. The palestinian people have been imprisoned on a tiny strip of land and have nowhere to go.
I’ve been wondering why nobody has brought this clear comparison up before. The progressive left knows this will only antagonize the right wing. Since the objective is to save innocent civilian lives and get a ceasefire and not to score political points, they don’t draw the parallel.
And the liberals and right wing are excusing Israels behavior because subconsciously they know they did the same thing. So if Israel is guilty, so is the US.
The only one getting political points from the comparison is Russia to keep the atrocity by Israel going, damage the Reputation of the US and distract from their own war. Well or Israel possibly. Not accusing you at all, just musing from an “information warfare” perspective.
I think this is a fair point.
It happens everywhere, with increasing frequency. Depending on who’s calling for killing who, it’s either praised or giggled at or condemned. Off the top of my head…
Snoop Dogg had a mock execution of Trump, where he shot a Trump caricature clown in the head
In South Africa, there are prominent groups dancing around & chanting, “Kill the Boer! The farmer! SHOOT to KILL!! Brrrrrrrap!” But this has been justified because it’s “an old cultural chant”, totally not a threat. Malema has been called out for this, and he has reassured everyone, “We Have Not Called For The Killing Of White People… At Least For Now” But he “cannot ‘guarantee’ what will happen in the future”.
These aren’t really apt comparisons. None of the them are calling for the military to go and kill a citizen of another country.
No, they’re just indulging in a little stochastic terrorism. As a treat.
Toby Keith : Courtesy of the Red White and Blue - https://youtu.be/ruNrdmjcNTc?si=DmXKSLPI2SHVoQM-
There’s plenty more. Or are you just being obtuse on purpose?
Who is he calling for the marines to kill? I don’t see it in the lyrics at all. Sure, it talks about war (it’s essentially a hardcore version of the Star Spangled Banner, which talks about bombing). And the song was never as big as the song in the article. Additionally, this was over 20 years ago, which is a lot of time to change. That’s like saying that people can’t be upset at other countries for discriminating against LGBTQ+ people because American TV in the early 2000’s had jokes at their expense. Things change.
He’s calling for the killing of Iraqis, you know people in Iraq. You know, those innocent civilians the American government lied about having weapons of mass destruction. Then Toby Keith’s dream came true and the US set about levelling their land and killing millions of Iraqis.
Why the fuck does 20 years matter? Your statement did not mention a timeline. Show some integrity.
Where does he even say that? Or are you one of those people that say “look at what I think was implied”? I looked through the lyrics, where does it call for killing people in Iraq? My statement didn’t mention a timeline because I had no idea idiots like you were going to come in with no point other than country music is bad. You’re not contributing anything to the conversation about the actual post, like any American you’ve made this all about yourself.
I don’t even understand what your point is. Are you okay with the song in the article because there’s some pretty batshit insane country songs? What the fuck do you mean show some integrity? You came up in here and just said went ‘nuh uh, America bad!’. What’s your point? How does this relate to the advocating of killing singers who are of Arabic decent? Do you have anything so actually say here other than whataboutism?
Like others who have responded I’ve simply pointed out an example that refutes your statement. You don’t seem to be capable of even opening the smallest sliver of your mind to the possibility that anyone else might have a rational different perspective on this matter. It’s tiresome.
Where does he even say that? Or are you one of those people that say “look at what I think was implied”? I looked through the lyrics, where does it call for killing people in Iraq? My statement didn’t mention a timeline because I had no idea idiots like you were going to come in with no point other than country music is bad. You’re not contributing anything to the conversation about the actual post, like any American you’ve made this all about yourself.
What the fuck are you trying to prove? I’ve waisted so much time talking with you fucking dolts that aren’t even talking about this article.
I’m not American. You might want to think about your assumptions and what they do to your ability to process information, particularly feedback.
Ah, The international defence of “bygones”.
20 years is a lot of time for a 20 year old, right?
The bigger picture is that 20 years is still very recent history.
Yeah. It is. The fact the US still has TV shows that make those jokes, the very fact that morality is relative to the US is sort of the problem here. At best it is imperialism. At worst it is rank hypocrisy.
Your anti-America glasses are making you miss the point so fucking hard there’s no point trying to talk to you. But just know, countries other than USA can be bad too. You don’t need to use the USA as a litmus test for if something is right.
How about you read the lyrics and see that for all of the patriotic bluster, they don’t even say a group or nation that of people should be on the receiving end of the requested military force. Just that they should go do the thing somewhere to the people who hit first. You’re comparing that to someone calling out specific people for death.
I hope you can see why your comparison immediately falls apart.
In your own words:-
Are Iraqis in Iraq not citizens of another country?
Have you read the lyrics? Do you struggle with understanding context?
None of it is okay. It encourages violence, it desensitizes us, we see a comedian triumphantly holding up a bloodied, decapitated POTUS head with a look of cold indifference on her face and we say, "Oh, it’s okay. It’s not a call to violence specifically, it’s just artistic expression.
I’m picking Trump ones because he’s a big, easy target & the examples are easily found. Not because I endorse Trump. It also showcases how extreme violence is given a platform, praised. But there are plenty more examples just a Google search away.
So it’s fine for people to depict killing a POTUS all the time, and other people you don’t like. That’s acceptable. Kill the white farmers in South Africa, after all, they’re part of an oppressor class & they deserve it. SHOOT to KILL. But calling for the death of 3 random people is a line too far, I guess? 🤨
Your qualms with this are just the result of a culture with no guardrails, no moral foundation. Human life isn’t considered sacred. We tolerate & celebrate depictions of death all the time. This only encourages senseless mass shootings, violence.
You’re really looking for a straw man argument for this, and I don’t even understand why. The release and reception of this song is vile, there is no need to try and grandstand and go “actually…”
You’re allowed to say something is fucked up without having to mention everything else fucked up and discuss which is more fucked up. You’re wasting energy on the stupidest thing.
You’re dead / You’re canceled!
(That’s my only contribution, noting she received death threats & hatred, carry on otherwise I just remembered that one)
We can understand why that’s like, not a very concrete justification to be against espousing violence, right? I also find it weird, right, that we’re doing this step-around thing, where you’re calling everyone out for the hypocrisy of, oh, well, people are against this violence, but they’re not against this violence? Have you maybe considered that the two forms of violence are distinct? Perhaps that the two forms of violence are actually not similar? That people have reasons for, say, wanting violence against one party, but not another?
That’s what they’re commenting about. You say “it’s either all okay or none of it’s okay” because it encourages violence, right, but, I am giving you an opportunity to show your work, when it comes to this very basic claim, upon which rests the rest of your argument.
“shot in the head” that’s misrepresentation big time. He shoots a gun towards the clowns head but it’s one of those gag guns with a flag coming out with the word “bang” on it… Which rhymes with Trump being depicted as a clown. It’s far more metaphorical than the other examples and you need to be pretty fucking dense to see it as a call for violence against Trump or anyone else.
The Israeli one and the South African ones are in my opinion comparable in that they both call for explicit violence and their only defense is basically “it’s art, I can do what I want”
Call to violence might be a stretch. However, I think it’s either incredibly naive or incredibly dishonest to overlook the depiction of a gun, pointed at a person, the trigger being pulled, the gun going bang, and the president/clown flinching in response.
You only point a gun at something if you intend to shoot it, possibly kill it. There is no exception.
It is indeed an artistic expression & not real, but the imagery is unmistakable. He casually plays out this scene & displays it to the world, basically saying, “Yeah, if this happened…I’m totally okay with this. I put this in my rap videos. No big deal.”
And I think a lot of people on Lemmy feel the same way about Trump.
You’re right, it’s not a national thing, but it’s not okay. The one with Snoop Dogg is a bit different though, because Trump is also inciting violence, so he made himself a legitimate target for responses like that.
Why do you consider Hamas not inciting violence? And the many Palestinians and pro-palestinian protestors who openly ask to eradicate Israel and Israelis, Jews and so on?
Based GWAR cutting off Bush’s head onstage and spraying us all with blood
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Snoop Dogg had a mock execution of Trump, where he shot a Trump caricature clown in the head
In South Africa, there are prominent groups dancing around & chanting, “Kill the Boer! The farmer! SHOOT to KILL!! Brrrrrrrap!”
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I wish I could agree, but we’ve got some fucked up shit top the country music charts from time to time.
I don’t think any of the fucked up countries song of the last 5 years get close to this. People forget 9/11 was over 20 years ago, that’s an entire generation worth of change. Disney was racist in the past, doesn’t mean it’s an excuse for others to be racists now.
Jasn Aldean’s “Try That in a Small Town” was released in 2023 and that’s a commercial song. There are plenty of far worse example.
Hmm recall the catchy chorus but lyrics seem generically patriotic on the violent side?
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/20/1188966935/jason-aldean-try-that-in-a-small-town-song-video
wow OK. And Santis saying “when the média attaxks you, you’re doing something right”…
Or if it does, it usually gets shut down immediately.
That’s what I meant; sure there may have been songs with this stuff in them but they rarely become if ever have become hits. Usually it’s a career killer.
Totally normal and kool.
War on Terror
The US Attorney General John Ashcroft singing his wonderfully jingoistic 2002 masterpiece “Let the Eagle Soar”
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=woLQI8X2R6Y
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Terror
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.