Commerce is just the exchange of goods and services. If we all stop exchanging goods, in what sense would we have a civilization? What would you or anyone accomplish if you had to grow your own food, make your own clothes, build your own house…?
Currency is a natural evolution of commerce. Direct barter only works if the person selling what you need wants something you have.
Say you want to buy flowers. If the florist wants shoes and you only have bread or hammers to spare, then tough luck.
Any large society cannot function with such a clunky way to exchange goods/services. Currency is merely a proxy that allows both sides to trade their goods using a tool they both value similarly. Hell, some civilisations used giant boulders as currency… it’s hardly a new concept.
An exchange of goods and services means you get nothing unless I get something. Maybe OP means everything is given as you take what you need with nothing expected in return.
You grow carrots, you bring them to town once a week. Other lady raises chickens, brings eggs once a week. If you need either you take some. You use the eggs to make cookies, you have extra, you give them away to anyone you see for the day.
This works at a feudal technology level. Who makes the trains? They train makers need steel and literally no one would work in a forge or a mine for fun/preference.
People with the skills show up and collectively make chips, there may be less than produced by typical “blood from a rock” endless growth pacing, but there would at least be enough chips for hospitals, emergency services.
And without the profit motive, the products made would actually be built to last and engineered to be serviceable because there’s actually incentive for them to NOT be disposable.
In order to create modern tech, you’ll need not only specialized knowledge, but also raw materials. I’m not convinced there would be any volunteer to mine cobalt and lithium without getting paid.
First, the easiest one: Silicon is never going to be serviceable or upgradeable. That’s not how it works.
There’s no chance of all that happening out of good will. Look up what goes into making a Fab (Intel has some tour videos).
These aren’t the things that people “with the skills” show up for. It takes a lifetime of studying for some of the layers of these topics, not to mention collaboration between the others (or even finding them, if only the hospitals and emergency services would have access to computers, and therefore professional networking and email).
There are some truly awful jobs on this planet. Look up how sulfur is collected. People literally climb into volcanos to chip it off the walls and carry up sometimes 200lbs on their backs. One trip on that pumice and you’re toast.
People need incentives, and with no money, there would be a power vacuum…for another kind of money. I’m not saying capitalism is great or anything, don’t get me wrong. But you can’t just get rid of money.
Incentive is social praise, respect of your neighbors and personal fulfillment knowing you have a needed skill. When all you’re other needs are met, it could be enough.
I think the main problem here is that a few in this that are thinking 1:1 replacement - I’m not saying the Apple store is going to be fully functional, I’m saying I’ve known and worked with a lot of great engineers that like to solve problems, almost compulsively. If society made sure “the rest was taken care of” so they could do what they did best, they’d put in solid work week each week, help train others, etc.
Also, too many of you are caught up on the 40 hour work week. It’s not needed and in a better structure you’d work less often. I’m realistic, the world won’t get there on my lifetime or maybe ever, but it could work.
This whole detailed dive into silicon aspect specifically is a strawman though, that’s not the point of the discussion.
This horribly underestimates the laziness, indifference, and selfishness of the general public. It only works if you zoom out enough to ignore the individual’s interest.
The supply chains used in making modern processors are immense and span many industries all around the world. I don’t think people are going to put the tremendous amount of effort into that just because.
In a communist society, say Soviet Russia, were the goods for a train really exchanged?
Like yeah, the ore comes from the mine, gets smelted, coked, forged, brought to another factory for machining, another factory for assembly.
So does it fulfill the definition requiring exchange of goods? I argue not, The goods were transported, but the ownership remained with the government.
Commerce is just the exchange of goods and services. If we all stop exchanging goods, in what sense would we have a civilization? What would you or anyone accomplish if you had to grow your own food, make your own clothes, build your own house…?
Commerce is fine, greed is not. OP missed that distinction.
Commerce != currency
Currency is a natural evolution of commerce. Direct barter only works if the person selling what you need wants something you have.
Say you want to buy flowers. If the florist wants shoes and you only have bread or hammers to spare, then tough luck.
Any large society cannot function with such a clunky way to exchange goods/services. Currency is merely a proxy that allows both sides to trade their goods using a tool they both value similarly. Hell, some civilisations used giant boulders as currency… it’s hardly a new concept.
An exchange of goods and services means you get nothing unless I get something. Maybe OP means everything is given as you take what you need with nothing expected in return.
You grow carrots, you bring them to town once a week. Other lady raises chickens, brings eggs once a week. If you need either you take some. You use the eggs to make cookies, you have extra, you give them away to anyone you see for the day.
This works at a feudal technology level. Who makes the trains? They train makers need steel and literally no one would work in a forge or a mine for fun/preference.
Who makes computer chips?
People with the skills show up and collectively make chips, there may be less than produced by typical “blood from a rock” endless growth pacing, but there would at least be enough chips for hospitals, emergency services.
And without the profit motive, the products made would actually be built to last and engineered to be serviceable because there’s actually incentive for them to NOT be disposable.
In order to create modern tech, you’ll need not only specialized knowledge, but also raw materials. I’m not convinced there would be any volunteer to mine cobalt and lithium without getting paid.
First, the easiest one: Silicon is never going to be serviceable or upgradeable. That’s not how it works.
There’s no chance of all that happening out of good will. Look up what goes into making a Fab (Intel has some tour videos).
These aren’t the things that people “with the skills” show up for. It takes a lifetime of studying for some of the layers of these topics, not to mention collaboration between the others (or even finding them, if only the hospitals and emergency services would have access to computers, and therefore professional networking and email).
There are some truly awful jobs on this planet. Look up how sulfur is collected. People literally climb into volcanos to chip it off the walls and carry up sometimes 200lbs on their backs. One trip on that pumice and you’re toast.
People need incentives, and with no money, there would be a power vacuum…for another kind of money. I’m not saying capitalism is great or anything, don’t get me wrong. But you can’t just get rid of money.
Incentive is social praise, respect of your neighbors and personal fulfillment knowing you have a needed skill. When all you’re other needs are met, it could be enough.
I think the main problem here is that a few in this that are thinking 1:1 replacement - I’m not saying the Apple store is going to be fully functional, I’m saying I’ve known and worked with a lot of great engineers that like to solve problems, almost compulsively. If society made sure “the rest was taken care of” so they could do what they did best, they’d put in solid work week each week, help train others, etc.
Also, too many of you are caught up on the 40 hour work week. It’s not needed and in a better structure you’d work less often. I’m realistic, the world won’t get there on my lifetime or maybe ever, but it could work.
This whole detailed dive into silicon aspect specifically is a strawman though, that’s not the point of the discussion.
This horribly underestimates the laziness, indifference, and selfishness of the general public. It only works if you zoom out enough to ignore the individual’s interest.
The supply chains used in making modern processors are immense and span many industries all around the world. I don’t think people are going to put the tremendous amount of effort into that just because.
Idk little Jimmy has bees having so much fun in the coal mines he’s 24 hours past the end of his shift
In a communist society, say Soviet Russia, were the goods for a train really exchanged?
Like yeah, the ore comes from the mine, gets smelted, coked, forged, brought to another factory for machining, another factory for assembly.
So does it fulfill the definition requiring exchange of goods? I argue not, The goods were transported, but the ownership remained with the government.
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A lot more than we do in this shithole
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now put them in the oven for an hour at 3000 degrees… (in radio announcer voice)
Okay