I mean, we’ve now had extensive evidence showing that Israel fired on Israeli civilians (e.g. Nova) and extensive evidence that Israel has no issue bombing hospitals (e.g. al-Ahli).
Edit: we also have extensive evidence showing that Israel has no issue firing up on and injuring thousands of innocent protestors.
As I’ve already said below: Thousands of murders from one side don’t make hundreds of murders from the other side rightful. If you think that massacres are an okay tool to use in some circumstances then there is something deeply wrong with you.
Where’s the evidence that Hamas killed thousands of civilians? All we have evidence of is that thousands of Israelis died, but we also know that a good chunk of civilians were killed in friendly fire incidents. In fact, per Israel’s own admission, they had to revise down their casualty numbers because bodies they thought were Israeli civilians were actually Hamas. Civilian deaths are supposed to have commensurate military objectives. While that’s clearly not been true for Israel’s bombing of Gaza, it’s far less clear because of how little is known about what actually happened on October 7th.
Videos of Nova show armed personnel amongst civilians opening fire against Hamas. Reports from October 7th include that Israeli tanks fired at Israeli civilians, and that Israel created a blockade for cars escaping Nova. Video from helicopters in the area suggest that nondescript sedans were targeted fleeing the area. News reports at the time suggest that many Kibbutz were heavily armed because of fear of Hamas, and in fact a number of them (particularly those closest to the border) were made up of ex-IDF. These have all been reported on by Israeli and/or Western media.
How many of those “hundreds of murders” were caused by the IDF? How many from people caught in the crossfire? How many were “ex-IDF civilians with guns”? Hamas’ objective was pretty clear: take hostages, because that’s the only way they’ve seen that works to put pressure on the Israeli government. Do I have issues with taking civilian hostages? Of course! But that objective is diametrically opposed to going on a mass murder spree. Dead hostages aren’t hostages: they’re martyrs.
There’s no way of knowing what circumstances the hundreds of dead civilians died in because the Israeli government has been covering it up in order to spread propaganda like “40 beheaded babies” and whatnot. That, in itself, should raise red flags.
Am I denying that any civilians died purely at the hands of Hamas? Of course not. Shit happens during conflict, especially when the people you’re fighting just spent the past few decades shooting up children at your peaceful protests. You’re angry, adrenaline is pumping, and (by the numbers) you probably lost one of your parents to IDF action. What I am denying is that it was systematic behaviour and that Hamas was purely responsible for hundreds of murders.
Hamas, as an organization, does not have a problem with Israeli civilians. Hamas’ problem has always been with the Zionist state, the government, and the IDF in support of Zionism. If you’ve been listening to the interviews of hostages released early in the conflict, you’d see that they’re rather positive on the ordeal. Their professed goal was to claim hostages (which they did do, and which we’ve seen has successfully stirred up discontent with the Netanyahu government). You’re claiming that Hamas actually had a second goal, which was to go on a mass murder spree. This is not only diametrically opposed to their professed goal, but also serves to rile up Israeli support for the Netanyahu government. Unless you think Hamas is literally run by room-temperature IQ imbeciles, you should reconsider.
Nobody of us was there. Luckily. You honestly believe that Hamas indeed invaded Israel with the intent to take hostages and “get rid of the oppressors” (like they announced before they invaded) but somehow Israel itself was faster to murder off its own civilians? That’s mental.
Do I have issues with taking civilian hostages? Of course! But that objective is diametrically opposed to going on a mass murder spree.
Let’s talk about sick reasoning then. Do you think the 3,000 rockets (Hamas claims it was 5,000) they shot at Israel on that single day were meant to take hostages, too? Certainly not. Hamas has been, and still is, claiming responsibility for deadly rocket and suicide attacks on an almost weekly, now almost daily, basis. Mass murder is evidentially not beneath them. I doubt they would suddenly change their strategy when face to face with people they think of as oppressors. It’s also not hard to imagine a sick reasoning behind it: “Fill up the car, kill the rest.”
Edit: Just to be sure, before the next person responds without reading half the thread: What Israel does in the name of revenge right now can only be considered as war crimes and is clearly wrong. That still does not make any actions of Hamas rightful. There can be two bad actors in the same story.
In total, since 2004, rockets fired by Hamas have killed less than 50 people in Israel. For comparison, the Great March of Return (a peaceful protest by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip) led to the IDF killing more than 200 Palestinians.
I mean, we’ve now had extensive evidence showing that Israel fired on Israeli civilians (e.g. Nova) and extensive evidence that Israel has no issue bombing hospitals (e.g. al-Ahli).
Edit: we also have extensive evidence showing that Israel has no issue firing up on and injuring thousands of innocent protestors.
As I’ve already said below: Thousands of murders from one side don’t make hundreds of murders from the other side rightful. If you think that massacres are an okay tool to use in some circumstances then there is something deeply wrong with you.
Where’s the evidence that Hamas killed thousands of civilians? All we have evidence of is that thousands of Israelis died, but we also know that a good chunk of civilians were killed in friendly fire incidents. In fact, per Israel’s own admission, they had to revise down their casualty numbers because bodies they thought were Israeli civilians were actually Hamas. Civilian deaths are supposed to have commensurate military objectives. While that’s clearly not been true for Israel’s bombing of Gaza, it’s far less clear because of how little is known about what actually happened on October 7th.
Videos of Nova show armed personnel amongst civilians opening fire against Hamas. Reports from October 7th include that Israeli tanks fired at Israeli civilians, and that Israel created a blockade for cars escaping Nova. Video from helicopters in the area suggest that nondescript sedans were targeted fleeing the area. News reports at the time suggest that many Kibbutz were heavily armed because of fear of Hamas, and in fact a number of them (particularly those closest to the border) were made up of ex-IDF. These have all been reported on by Israeli and/or Western media.
How many of those “hundreds of murders” were caused by the IDF? How many from people caught in the crossfire? How many were “ex-IDF civilians with guns”? Hamas’ objective was pretty clear: take hostages, because that’s the only way they’ve seen that works to put pressure on the Israeli government. Do I have issues with taking civilian hostages? Of course! But that objective is diametrically opposed to going on a mass murder spree. Dead hostages aren’t hostages: they’re martyrs.
There’s no way of knowing what circumstances the hundreds of dead civilians died in because the Israeli government has been covering it up in order to spread propaganda like “40 beheaded babies” and whatnot. That, in itself, should raise red flags.
Am I denying that any civilians died purely at the hands of Hamas? Of course not. Shit happens during conflict, especially when the people you’re fighting just spent the past few decades shooting up children at your peaceful protests. You’re angry, adrenaline is pumping, and (by the numbers) you probably lost one of your parents to IDF action. What I am denying is that it was systematic behaviour and that Hamas was purely responsible for hundreds of murders.
Hamas, as an organization, does not have a problem with Israeli civilians. Hamas’ problem has always been with the Zionist state, the government, and the IDF in support of Zionism. If you’ve been listening to the interviews of hostages released early in the conflict, you’d see that they’re rather positive on the ordeal. Their professed goal was to claim hostages (which they did do, and which we’ve seen has successfully stirred up discontent with the Netanyahu government). You’re claiming that Hamas actually had a second goal, which was to go on a mass murder spree. This is not only diametrically opposed to their professed goal, but also serves to rile up Israeli support for the Netanyahu government. Unless you think Hamas is literally run by room-temperature IQ imbeciles, you should reconsider.
Nobody of us was there. Luckily. You honestly believe that Hamas indeed invaded Israel with the intent to take hostages and “get rid of the oppressors” (like they announced before they invaded) but somehow Israel itself was faster to murder off its own civilians? That’s mental.
Let’s talk about sick reasoning then. Do you think the 3,000 rockets (Hamas claims it was 5,000) they shot at Israel on that single day were meant to take hostages, too? Certainly not. Hamas has been, and still is, claiming responsibility for deadly rocket and suicide attacks on an almost weekly, now almost daily, basis. Mass murder is evidentially not beneath them. I doubt they would suddenly change their strategy when face to face with people they think of as oppressors. It’s also not hard to imagine a sick reasoning behind it: “Fill up the car, kill the rest.”
Edit: Just to be sure, before the next person responds without reading half the thread: What Israel does in the name of revenge right now can only be considered as war crimes and is clearly wrong. That still does not make any actions of Hamas rightful. There can be two bad actors in the same story.
In total, since 2004, rockets fired by Hamas have killed less than 50 people in Israel. For comparison, the Great March of Return (a peaceful protest by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip) led to the IDF killing more than 200 Palestinians.
Edit: read this
https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/18526