I don’t know how we’re reading the same sentence and arrive at opposite conclusions. Even if you were right about the goldrush in indian land not being a motivating factor for droves of immigrants I think my larger point, how incomparable the motivation for white immigrants and the currently oppressed immigrants is, still stands by the actions the europeans undertook upon arrival. This is not about dividing people into racist groups, but clearly talking about the racial divide that was drawn up by the capitalist class. Not talking about the deep racism in the european immigrant movement, regardless of their class status, in fear of “deepening grudges” is revisionist.
Even if you were right about the goldrush in indian land not being a motivating factor for droves of immigrants
No it absolutely was the motivating factor. Setting out to pan gold is precisely not setting out to murder Chinese is what I’m saying, that was plan C or D thought up long after arriving. If the American dream had ever been real, or if American politics and society back then had not been as racialised, it would not have come to that – it’s not just up to the failed gold rushers now between a rock and a hard place but also the racist state institutions implemented by Anglo America who gave them at least implicit permission to do it, or even egged it on.
In my mind OP’s post wants to say “[this group] came here for that dream, they never got it, let’s finally make it real [for everyone]”. Are other interpretations possible? I’d say so, but I’d also say one should be charitable.
Also didn’t the Chinese come for that exact dream. Last I checked Chinese had white skin (sorry my Europeanness is shining through).
Setting out to pan gold is precisely not setting out to murder Chinese is what I’m saying, that was plan C or D thought up long after arriving.
Oh I see what you meant. To me that still reads like they were simply misled on who to plunder and what the loot would be.
But regardless I do agree that what you said was OPs message and I also agree with it, but I don’t think it will be achieved by appealing to sentiment, whitewashing history, especially where the wealth comes from, and in general trying to appease the crowd with false equivalences, because they serve to hide the root of the present injustices. Furthermore I see no reason to be charitable to someone like Robert Reich.
Edit I don’t know enough about the chinese immigrants to comment on what brought them to the US. In racist terms chinese and east asians are considered “yellow” not “white”.
To me that still reads like they were simply misled on who to plunder and what the loot would be.
“Plundering natives” is not a motive I’d expect, at least not from immigrants who read Karl May. More “get rich off the vast wilderness”. I think that accusation should, among labourers, be limited to people going for agricultural land, displacing communities already living there.
but I don’t think it will be achieved by appealing to sentiment, whitewashing history, especially where the wealth comes from, and in general trying to appease the crowd with false equivalences,
The majority of the wealth comes off the back of the workers. The miners, people working in industry, it’s the same in the US as it’s in Europe: Other sectors are important and even crucial (e.g. food production) but it terms of GDP and capacity to produce goods, industry it’s where it’s at.
Y’all should definitely be giving land back but say Detroit didn’t become an industrial powerhouse because natives were sent on the trail of tears, or southern farmers exploited black slaves. If all wealth the US had was only from those aspects then you’d still be an agrarian society.
Is it possible to come to a synthesis there, not ignoring the atrocities committed but acknowledging the important (not sole) role that skilled European labourers had in building the economic backbone of the US, a backbone without which implementing Utopian dreams would be, well, Utopian?
Because as I see it, if, as soon as someone says, “my grandfather was a miner” and you instantly bring up the one or other atrocity some mining community committed against other people you’re saying “we all would have been better off without you, you people contributed nothing”: It’s way easier to get people to acknowledge past or present wrongs when you leave them their pride in their accomplishments. “All that wealth is stolen” is the exact opposite of that, grandpa didn’t work backbreaking 14-hour shifts for that, without health insurance. He did it so that his kids would have a better life. Was he worse off than a slave on a cotton plantation? No, of course not, but it’s still where the bulk of the wealth comes from. Wealth is not created in proportion to suffering.
Furthermore I see no reason to be charitable to someone like Robert Reich.
I have no idea who the guy is and I probably don’t want to know.
Im going to disengage here. I am one last time going to urge you to read that book. Also just because there seems to be a misunderstanding here let me say that I’m not USian, I’m german.
Also just because there seems to be a misunderstanding here let me say that I’m not USian, I’m german.
My gods that’s even worse. Why, then, are you that steeped in reductionist, racialised, US analysis? Activists and theorists over there don’t see the water they’re swimming in, don’t realise how their unwillingness and/or incapacity to think outside of that framework perpetuates it. It allows people to stay depoliticised by engaging in performativism, segregating hair styles becomes more important than material fucking conditions. Idpol is the worst thing that happened to the left since Stalin and the exact opposite of what you should be steeped in, and that’s rapprochement. Which is exactly where I tried to carefully lead you.
OK excuse me you talk about material “fucking” conditions and ignore or relativize the colonial history of the Hegemon. You’re in for a rude awakening if you think your rapprochement of liberal “hearts and minds” or whatever the fuck it is that you’re looking to accomplish will ever be possible. I urge you so much more to read that exact book I’m pushing if only to see how the white communists and socialists and unionists kept fucking things up and kept playing into the racist divide with these kind of civility politics that you’re pushing, while ignoring the native american or black american comrade. Because its these divides that are currently being amped up right here in Germany, the second most subservient country to the Hegemon.
You’re in for a rude awakening if you think your rapprochement of liberal “hearts and minds” or whatever the fuck it is that you’re looking to accomplish will ever be possible.
Read some European post-war history. Ask the North Irish – both sides and yes that was a settler-colonial/apartheid situation. The examples are literally endless.
OTOH, point me to a single instance where Idpol has brought peace.
Why don’t you read some US history, I implore you to, then visit some of the nonwhite neighborhoods in major German cities and you will see how relevant it is for us today.
I don’t know how we’re reading the same sentence and arrive at opposite conclusions. Even if you were right about the goldrush in indian land not being a motivating factor for droves of immigrants I think my larger point, how incomparable the motivation for white immigrants and the currently oppressed immigrants is, still stands by the actions the europeans undertook upon arrival. This is not about dividing people into racist groups, but clearly talking about the racial divide that was drawn up by the capitalist class. Not talking about the deep racism in the european immigrant movement, regardless of their class status, in fear of “deepening grudges” is revisionist.
No it absolutely was the motivating factor. Setting out to pan gold is precisely not setting out to murder Chinese is what I’m saying, that was plan C or D thought up long after arriving. If the American dream had ever been real, or if American politics and society back then had not been as racialised, it would not have come to that – it’s not just up to the failed gold rushers now between a rock and a hard place but also the racist state institutions implemented by Anglo America who gave them at least implicit permission to do it, or even egged it on.
In my mind OP’s post wants to say “[this group] came here for that dream, they never got it, let’s finally make it real [for everyone]”. Are other interpretations possible? I’d say so, but I’d also say one should be charitable.
Also didn’t the Chinese come for that exact dream. Last I checked Chinese had white skin (sorry my Europeanness is shining through).
Oh I see what you meant. To me that still reads like they were simply misled on who to plunder and what the loot would be.
But regardless I do agree that what you said was OPs message and I also agree with it, but I don’t think it will be achieved by appealing to sentiment, whitewashing history, especially where the wealth comes from, and in general trying to appease the crowd with false equivalences, because they serve to hide the root of the present injustices. Furthermore I see no reason to be charitable to someone like Robert Reich.
Edit I don’t know enough about the chinese immigrants to comment on what brought them to the US. In racist terms chinese and east asians are considered “yellow” not “white”.
“Plundering natives” is not a motive I’d expect, at least not from immigrants who read Karl May. More “get rich off the vast wilderness”. I think that accusation should, among labourers, be limited to people going for agricultural land, displacing communities already living there.
The majority of the wealth comes off the back of the workers. The miners, people working in industry, it’s the same in the US as it’s in Europe: Other sectors are important and even crucial (e.g. food production) but it terms of GDP and capacity to produce goods, industry it’s where it’s at.
Y’all should definitely be giving land back but say Detroit didn’t become an industrial powerhouse because natives were sent on the trail of tears, or southern farmers exploited black slaves. If all wealth the US had was only from those aspects then you’d still be an agrarian society.
Is it possible to come to a synthesis there, not ignoring the atrocities committed but acknowledging the important (not sole) role that skilled European labourers had in building the economic backbone of the US, a backbone without which implementing Utopian dreams would be, well, Utopian?
Because as I see it, if, as soon as someone says, “my grandfather was a miner” and you instantly bring up the one or other atrocity some mining community committed against other people you’re saying “we all would have been better off without you, you people contributed nothing”: It’s way easier to get people to acknowledge past or present wrongs when you leave them their pride in their accomplishments. “All that wealth is stolen” is the exact opposite of that, grandpa didn’t work backbreaking 14-hour shifts for that, without health insurance. He did it so that his kids would have a better life. Was he worse off than a slave on a cotton plantation? No, of course not, but it’s still where the bulk of the wealth comes from. Wealth is not created in proportion to suffering.
I have no idea who the guy is and I probably don’t want to know.
Im going to disengage here. I am one last time going to urge you to read that book. Also just because there seems to be a misunderstanding here let me say that I’m not USian, I’m german.
My gods that’s even worse. Why, then, are you that steeped in reductionist, racialised, US analysis? Activists and theorists over there don’t see the water they’re swimming in, don’t realise how their unwillingness and/or incapacity to think outside of that framework perpetuates it. It allows people to stay depoliticised by engaging in performativism, segregating hair styles becomes more important than material fucking conditions. Idpol is the worst thing that happened to the left since Stalin and the exact opposite of what you should be steeped in, and that’s rapprochement. Which is exactly where I tried to carefully lead you.
Side note do watch Reservation Dogs.
OK excuse me you talk about material “fucking” conditions and ignore or relativize the colonial history of the Hegemon. You’re in for a rude awakening if you think your rapprochement of liberal “hearts and minds” or whatever the fuck it is that you’re looking to accomplish will ever be possible. I urge you so much more to read that exact book I’m pushing if only to see how the white communists and socialists and unionists kept fucking things up and kept playing into the racist divide with these kind of civility politics that you’re pushing, while ignoring the native american or black american comrade. Because its these divides that are currently being amped up right here in Germany, the second most subservient country to the Hegemon.
Read some European post-war history. Ask the North Irish – both sides and yes that was a settler-colonial/apartheid situation. The examples are literally endless.
OTOH, point me to a single instance where Idpol has brought peace.
Why don’t you read some US history, I implore you to, then visit some of the nonwhite neighborhoods in major German cities and you will see how relevant it is for us today.