I made this post because I am really curious if Linux is used in offices and educational centres like schools.
While we all know Windows is the mac-daddy in the business space, are there any businesses you know or workplaces that actually Linux as a business replacement for Windows?
I.e. Mint or Ubuntu, I am not strictly talking about the server side of things.
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Lots of justification in this. Just be the change you want to see.
I only work with libre formats at work. If someone wants to collaborate, they can easily install libre office or gimp or freecad or gnu cash or whatever. Most libre software is free and cross-platform.
I salute you. Not many that are willing to do so. Maybe because most people don’t have very deep convictions on using FLOSS. It is easier to just do what everyone else does, after all.
I think the opposite. Working on windows is a pain in the ass. Like the system is not made for working and barely support it for actual computer work.
If you only use office or play video games, it’s good, certainly, and it’s good for the security team to have everyone with it because the system is built to only allow specific actions to be done. It’s completely inapt for actual engineering and technical work.
Like the system is not made for working and barely support it for actual computer work.
Have noticed the same.
One example why windows is bad for a developer. Lets say you work with
node.jsEventually you’ll end up withnode_modulesdirectory in you project with tens of thousands of files and thousands of directories. If you delete that directory in windows it takes minutes. In Linux it’s instantaneous.Removed by mod
Ok, my mistake here. I was talking about computer engineering and technique. Other fields use a software. Windows is barely relevant to the question.
Depends on the engineering field, I have out a few specific examples of highly payed engineering fields that can’t get away from Windows.
Do share what they are.
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I tell customers to use Libre Office. I tell them its free, cross platform, give them a link to download it, and ask if they have any further questions.
If they said IT issues, I’d ask to talk with their IT department. Its not difficult to get IT to install trusted, open-source software.
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Sometimes you have to do what is right instead of what brings you the most money
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I have worked for companies with thousands of employees, yes. It helps to be right about the cost, security, and usability benefits of using FOSS and be able to stand your ground and argue valid points.
But I do prefer companies with less than 100 people.
You can’t do whatever you want if you’re an employee in a big enterprise, there are company-wide rules and standards that you have to respect, you can’t expect your colleagues to adapt to you nor you can decide which OS to install on your company PC.
That’s not to say you can’t use Linux at all, you can ask your IT to be allowed to install Virtualbox and use Linux in a VM, that’s what I do, there are a lot of things that don’t strictly require Windows and I use Linux for those.
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Yeah and sometimes it’s not even just about customers, some people don’t realize big enterprises (as in dozens of thousands of employees) are very different from smaller companies, they’re like a “different world” on their own, not everything you can do on a smaller scale is feasible. They would probably need to work in one to really understand.
I make it very clear at the interview stage that I use Linux. Its never been an issue.
If someone tried to force me to use proprietary software, I’d say no. If they wanted to fire me over that, it would be ridiculous. It’s free and easy to support FOSS. Its costly & difficult to support proprietary software, so its not a hard sell.
You have more power than you think.
I’ve been a sysadmin for years and I worked longer on Linux than I did on Windows.
Many of your points are management bullshit. The proof? In France the gendarmerie (country police) moved to Linux about a decade ago.
The thing with windows is usually that management want a whole solution out of the box, from a renowned editor, so basically Microsoft. The key point is that they want a contract with a company so they can discard the responsability of failures on someone out of their own company. The second feature is that they are boomers or anti-nerds, so they are never going to be seen using something on a computer that’s not mainstream.
The last problem is from Microsoft that worked hard these last years to remove any compatibility between office and other softwares of this kind. They also enshitified office365 very hard so that is doesn’t work well on Linux.
The question of the price is a fraud. Large companies need an it service for Windows on top of the licences and infrastructure. It’s way cheaper with Linux. The biggest work with an enterprise Linux is to make it compatible with the shitty Windows environment, and the compliance with the useless security thought for windows.
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That’s where we disagree : anybody sane would use Linux rather than windows. Windows usage is based on ignorance.
You have zero idea about Windows system integration if you think it comes out of the box. Or you live in America. In Europe, data safety is a concern, and it raises many, many problems with Windows “out of the box”.
There are still use cases for windows. We have a predominately Linux environment (server and desktop), and a development team that build 80% of our operational software. That team are not fans of windows, but come across quite a few use cases where they have to use it because a 3rd party program won’t run on Linux; or an external connection requires a windows service; or there is no comparable product available on Linux (MS Excel is the one thing keeping me on windows). Even ignorance plays a part, because end users can still have had limited access to technology over their lives and in Australia that usually means windows computers in schools. I deal with staff in their 20’s and 30’s who know nothing of how technology works outside of “push that button and the thing happens”, if that button is a different colour, or shape, or location, shift is over, go home - they don’t care why it’s changed and definitely don’t want to learn a new way to do it. We’re somewhere between American data cowboys and the GDPR when it comes to data safety in Australia, which MS can be BS at and the integration burns more of our teams time than it should, but it’s still a necessary evil - even if it’s just when dealing with customers and vendors
If excel is keeping you on Linux, you’re doing it wrong. The problem here is undoubtedly ignorance and nothing else.
If it’s another program, wine made immense progresses these last years. You want to check about it.
Now, if you’re saying Linux is not ready out of the box, that’s true, but neither is Windows. Not if you have any important need. Windows is good for a customer, not for a company.
BTW Linux changed in the last ten years. It’s not the neckbeard system it used to be.
Now that I have a work laptop, I’ve installed Linux on my home computer and it was simple and runs fantastically - actual results may vary as I work in IT and have grown up with a high tech involved family. However, the hill I’m happy to die on, is the fact that using Excel above a basic level in business, where information needs to be shared with non-technical staff cannot be replicated in Linux, and that Excel is still the best product to do this.
People saying libre office is a full replacement for Excel haven’t seen what excel power users in offices can do. It’s usually people who in another life would be programmers but for whatever reason they can’t/won’t make the leap out of excel and into full fat programming. Expecting these same people to convert to a free clone of excel that uses slightly different syntax and has less polish is a great way to lose a very valuable employee extremely quickly.
I absolutely love the environment that Linux affords one, and I would financially support the developers of the tools I rely on (which of course includes libre office) if I were in the financial position to do so, but I’m not delusional when it comes to the role Excel plays in the 21st century office. The business world is run from poorly backed up, undocumented Excel spreadsheets on anemic desktops, and that ain’t changing anytime soon
This is wrong about excel. Most thing excel do can be done with libreoffice. People are lazy to learn and convert their documents, and Microsoft does everything possible to make this harder.
Well thought out post and largely true.
As a small counterpoint, I am supposed to use Windows at work but I use Linux. I would say that I am a “very heavy” but intermediate Microsoft Office user. That is, while I am not expert level in Office, I have to create and consume multiple documents per day. I give ( or submit ) several PowerPoints per week. These typically use templates supplied by Marketing or others. I create and consume multiple Excel files daily which almost always have multiple worksheets. I must admit that I have gotten authoring Word files down to maybe one per week but I open 3 a day at least.
Of course, I do not actually use Microsoft Office most of the time. Most of the above is in LibreOffice. I spend a tonne of my day in Outlook which I use in a browser ( Office 365 ). If I am opening a document from an email, it will often open in Office 365 online ( in my browser in Linux ). So do I use Microsoft Office quite a bit but rarely author anything there. While I prefer Firefox, I use Microsoft Edge on Linux and most often that is where I have Outlook open. Sadly, I have at least 3 to 4 Microsoft Teams meetings a day. Teams and GoToMeeting are why I started using Edge. It is just a nicer workflow if Teams and Outlook are in the same browser.
Anyway, I have very little problem exchanging documents. I had to switch to default fonts that Windows users will have of course but that was long ago now. So, I would not say that “alternatives such as LibreOffice aren’t just good enough” is a fair assessment for everybody. If I was an expert user in any one app ( in Finance maybe ) I could see this being true but I bet most office workers could use LibreOffice just fine these days.
Outside of Office, most of what I use are web applications which work just as well on Linux. I use containers a lot and they work better on Linux. Linux is quite bit snappier on the same hardware.
I am just a datapoint though and the issues you raise are real. I would perhaps just be less absolute about it. Trying Linux can still make sense. Also, you can try LibreOffice on Windows before jumping all the way to Linux.
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Id’ say your comparison pictured is not valid. It’s not the same document in both programs. On the left you have opened Lorem Ipsum.docs and on the right you have a new untitled document.
If one truly wants to share final documents use pdf not a draft format like docx.
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Yes its the same document. The only thing I did is “open a copy” because the document was locked in the other editor.
If you just copy paste something it’s not the same. If you want to make a true comparison you have open the same file in both.
People share unfinished documents with each other and formatting should hold, otherwise how can you collaborate?
And I was talking about finished documents.
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You lost me at developers. Hard disagree.
For what it’s worth, my company issues macs by default, but allows Linux or Windows if you request it. We just use Google Suite. Zero problems collaborating, and I work in a customer facing role.
i mostly agree except its leagues ahead for sysadmins and devs, it isnt even a contest. to counter your specific example, filezilla works great. i havent used a tool for this specific niche on linux that wasnt much better.
affinity photo is great on linux too if you are not too stuck with adobe. cant say much about other usecases you mentioned.
also wine runs old software better than windows in some cases. i have better luck with it on linux. funnily enough old linux software is a pain on linux in the rare situations where i need it.
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I know lowes uses linux for there registers and help desks.
I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder
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In two of my previous jobs (I’m a software engineer) I could officially install any Linux distro to the company laptop (which I did of course) fully replacing the wintoys. Could use the machine as I liked, no corporate mandated BS spyware or anything. On of the provides a SaaS product and used Linux server/virtual machines. Otherwise it was mostly MS bits + sprinkle a little Atlanssian horrors to it.
Unfortunately in my current job I’m limited a VirtualBox Linux running a corporate restricted wintoys machine in a MS environment. A long for the days when I was more productive with my Linux installation.
It’s just sad and funny how corporate world is that MS products it has to be (because reasons).
I was stuck in MacOS hell for some time. Now I won’t accept jobs that mandate an OS for devs. It’s either free choice, or I’m gone. Fuck that noise.
Was also in a company where Linux in a VM was the only option because it was a windows shop. Glad I quit that.
May the virtualized penguin bestow you with strength!
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Yes, and when the company gets hacked they can sue you for not keeping “your” computer secure enough.
Sounds very American point-of-view. Installation and usage was officially sanctioned. Most developers in both companies preferred to use Linux, some used Macs, wintoys users were a minority. Neither company had any super restrictive corporate BS on their wintoys installation. Neither company is based in the Americas. Both are local companies in the EU.
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The point here is that the company trusts their employees to use the best tools for them, be secure and do the right thing. Be the most productive. Windows needs that kind of third party snake-oil like AV software and restrictive policies to run it somewhat secure. Most Linux distros are already secure by design out of the box. Drive-by malware and hacking are a thing in windows not Linux.
Of course there are best practices and guidelines for running your system securely, how to handle sensitive data etc.
This. Linux Management is a thing and needs to be more implemented. Immutable Distros and more can help here, and should totally be used.
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What? Dude thats some uninformed conspiracy bs. Ubuntu maybe, but the rest?
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i’m stuck with windows, but i moved everything inside WSL… so at least vscode it’s on Linux.
i’m a heavy multitasker used to tiling WMs, multiple desktops on windows is torture.
In Europe, there are companies that allow devs to use whatever they like (worked for some of those). Linux is more popular among devs than mac, but less popular than windows. I even have a friend working at a company that’s 100% opensource, much to their chagrin as GIMP and Inkscape are no Photoshop.
Linux at school might become more of a thing in Germany as Microsoft 365 office online (or whatever it’s called) is in a dangerous spot where it might be banned from schools. IIRC nextcloud and owncloud are positioning themselves to replace it and with that, maybe linux on the desktop might be considered. But since they have a problem with “Apple ambassadors” (aka teachers prostituting themselves for Apple), the real danger exists that schools will be more willing to spend money on fancy mac bullshit than linux. Only time will tell.
Can you please share some info about why office 365 is in a dangerous spot in Germany? Very based country btw, this might be the reason why they donated 1M to GNOME project, considering it public interest project.
From Dec 2022: “Microsoft Office 365 Declared illegal for German Schools, Again!”
Don’t be so humble. You know, I started out exactly where you are, and to be honest, you know, my heart is still there. So I see you’re running Gnome. You know, I’m actually on KDE myself. I know this desktop environment is supposed to be better but you know what they say. Old habits they die hard. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking. I’m an executive. I mean why am I even running Linux? Again old habits. It’s gonna be fun working with you. I should join the rest of the group. Bonsoir, Elliot.
Hello friend
Hello friend
I have attended or been involved with five different state universities and a few different community colleges. For computer science, aside from one glaring exception, the default has been some flavor of Linux. The earliest for me at a school was Fedora 7. I think they had been running Solaris in the late 90s; not sure what was before that.
The only glaring exception is Georgia Tech. Because of the spyware you have to install for tests, you have to use Windows. Windows in a VM can be flagged as cheating. I’m naming and shaming Georgia Tech because they push their online courses hard and then require an operating system that isn’t standard for all the other places I’ve been or audited courses.
It’s much the same where I come from.
The high quality institutions have Linux in their labs (either a separate lab or dual boot) and a server with say access for training ML models etc.
The dodgy ones have only Windows with no software and require students to buy a second laptop and install Linux. If they don’t the students fail. Those tests were done in handwriting but they are still an accredited university :(
If you are talking about the computers themselves having Linux on them by default or dual bootable, then I’m kinda jealous. At the community college I attend, the computer lab for CS and IT related classes has only windowss 10.
The universities I’ve physically attended have had dedicated computer labs with Linux. My undergrad math department was all Linux, come to think of it. Easier IT and not a huge need for Word.
When I worked in VFX it was mostly Scientific Linux. A few macs were around for concept artists using Photoshop, and editorial using a proprietary video codec with Final Cut. Most business folks (in vfx called “coordinators” and “producers”) used tools that were web-based and cross platform (for example, Autodesk Shotgrid, Confluence, and Jira). A lot of internal development is done in Python so no worries there, either.
In game dev unfortunately it’s exclusively Windows. If you bring up even using
os.path.join, instead of hardcoding \\ into paths, devs who have never worked in another OS look at you like some sort of paranoid maniac.There was an interview with Dreamworks ( i think that was the Animation house) they use linux for everything.
In engineering CAD and large manufacturing corporations RHEL and SUSE are the two certified distros for running Teamcenter Product Lifecycle Management softare and Siemens NX CAD/CAM/FEA software (up to version 12) it is a smaller market than Windows versions, but probably took the place of the original unix versions prior to 2000
Any web hosting company will use Linux for all servers, and many developers will use it as their workstation as they tire of kludging together dev environments in windows. The devops engineers will most certainly be on Linux as that is where their tool chains live.
There are government agencies that use Linux exclusively. The DoD used to have a mandate to use oss. I’m not sure if it is still the case.
Scientists, HPC.
While I’m told such places exist, I have yet to knowingly interact with a business officially doing this for employee computers.
We spent 1 year negotiating implementation of secure Linux workstation, and now after endless meetings and agreements I can proudly say we have 5 people with fully GNU/Linux laptops! Dell XPS, to be precise.
Nice! We are looking into it with my boss and one other colleague. Im really hoping it goes through and I can finally use Linux at work!
I have only ever used Linux at work. I tried amacbookd once, then switched back to Linux.
Honestly I deal with a lot of windows environments but I just run Windows VMs for everything.
KVM and Virtio or great
My past 2 jobs have been Linux Desktop. The one before that was WSL (ew)
From what I’ve heard, it’s more common in Europe and parts of Asia. I’ve personally never seen significant Linux use of any kind in the IT environments I work in, sadly.
It’s all Microsoft product stacks, the servers, the endpoints, the cloud environment, all MS. Sometimes their Hypervisor would be VMWare, and their NAS was a Synology. But other than that, basically all Microsoft garbage.
I did work at one place that had a fair bit of Linux infrastructure. The lead network architect was a hardcore Linux/FOSS grognard. Really smart guy and was fantastic at his job, I learned a lot from him. But the only reason that company had Linux servers and a few FOSS implementations was because that guy insisted on it and managed all of it himself.
I also worked at another place where one of the older IT guys had installed a handful of SUSE thin clients at various locations for employees to clock in with. But right after I started there, management wanted me to switch them out for Windows thin clients. I pushed back but they insisted, so there went the tiny bit of Linux at that company.
At my current job, our department (DevOps), uses Linux (arch). A couple of devs too (Ubuntu), the rest use a mix of Macs and Windows. The Online versions of Office work just fine, there is Teams, Azure login and even Intune for Linux now.
At my previous job, most of the company used Windows, but the devs were using 90% Linux (Ubuntu), some of them with 2 machines (laptop and workstation with GPU, point cloud stuff). Ah, the good ole days of Ubuntu 16 and Nvidia drivers 🥲
The job before that, a very small company, mostly devs, we were using half Windows, half Linux (mint).
This is Germany btw.
I tried intune on Linux and it was hell incarnate, with edge dependencies and ton of background services, and crashing every now and then.
Did it ever get better with time?
I mean, it still wants edge, which is okay for the online office stuff (SSO), but it’s pretty bare, when compared to Windows. No policies and stuff. Install it and forget it situation, mostly used for reporting. Ah, we also use defender for endpoint, on all 3 oses, which is rather decent.
