Having influence over something doesn’t mean that you control it. The US has exerted heavy influence to attempt to curb the worst of the Israeli impulses (full scale ground operations being one of the successful ones). But that does not mean that the US controls Israel.
Israel is hell bent on repeating every mistake that the US made post 9/11. The latest is the equivalent of the “mission accomplished” banner.
The next mistake(if they make it) is going to be expanding the scope of what they intend to do.
The argument is that we’re not using our strongest influence by virtue of not threatening to withhold arms (even though it would be in US interest to do so to preserve influence in the region). I am not arguing that the US controls Israel like some vassal state.
Those arms you are talking about have already been appropriated by Congress, UNTIL 2028!!!
But I’m guessing that you didn’t know that because it’s a lot easier to sit on social media and wax eloquent about how foreign policy should mirror morality.
Even if we could stop the arms shit, it wouldn’t matter. Israel has it’s own military industrial complex and there are several other countries that would happily trade with Israel to give the US influence over the region a black eye.
Do you understand? Israel does not NEED our stuff. Sure it helps, but you seem to be under the delusion that if we didn’t supply weapons they wouldn’t have any. That is woefully naive and incorrect.
“But why do we give it???”
To which I repeat:
Foreign policy is about power and power coupons, not morality. This is the way it is, not the way it should be. Kissinger was a soulless ghoul, but he understood exactly what foreign policy is all about (which is the main reason why most of us hated him with a fiery passion). Nixon should have ensured that he took a long stroll on the deck of a submerged submarine, but alas, missed opportunities.
Maybe one day foreign policy will resemble morality, but that day will not come for a very, very, long time. If ever.
If we have so little influence over Israel than that undermines your argument that we’re getting “power coupons” in return. I’m not even debating you on the morality of Kissinger, I’m meeting you where you stand: if we don’t exercise our influence then we are going to lose it (and Kissinger agrees with me on that at least)
You are strawmanning me. I never said no influence. I said that influence does not equal control. The us has a lot of influence, but as a parallel, did the entire rest of the world advising the us against invading iraq do anything to stop the us? No. The US said “You’re either with us or against us.”.
I also never suggested that we were getting power coupons in return. What I said was that foreign policy is about power and power coupons.
If Israel is hell bent on doing what they are doing there is no amount of influence that is going to stop them. If at that point you suggest doing it militarily, I would dismiss you for being a blithering idiot.
We have been exercising our influence. Are you fucking blind? Biden et al have been doing pretzels trying to keep this from spilling out of hand. You have to be blind. I assume you’re not an idiot. Maybe you are one of these people who are incapable of reading between the lines. Yes, in front of a microphone, Biden and anyone else says unequivocal support for Israel etc etc, however, at every other turn, Biden, Blinken, and every ambassador and negotiator is trying to get Israel to “Lessen ground operations”, “Allow humanitarian pauses”, “make a pathway for aid”, etc.
I am probably farther left than you, politically, but you need to understand that in the same way that fox news, oan, newsmax, and whatever else can whip republicans into a frothy furor, left leaning publicans can AND DO do the same to lefties. It’s very easy to leave out nuance which provides context.
I suggest spending some more time looking behind the headlines into what is actually being done, because it is a LOT. Israel is currently hellbent on being a bunch of self righteous jackasses, and so they aren’t taking a lot of advice. And a lot of the advice comes in the form of “I fully support you and we are behind you 100%, but man, I wouldn’t do that shit if I was you”.
At this point I’m done discussing this with you. You seem to want to just cling to outrage and ignore nuance because it’s easier that way, and if that’s the case, then I’m wasting our time. Additionally, you keep trying to build a straw man, and I have little patience for that sort of thing.
Having influence over something doesn’t mean that you control it. The US has exerted heavy influence to attempt to curb the worst of the Israeli impulses (full scale ground operations being one of the successful ones). But that does not mean that the US controls Israel.
Israel is hell bent on repeating every mistake that the US made post 9/11. The latest is the equivalent of the “mission accomplished” banner.
The next mistake(if they make it) is going to be expanding the scope of what they intend to do.
The argument is that we’re not using our strongest influence by virtue of not threatening to withhold arms (even though it would be in US interest to do so to preserve influence in the region). I am not arguing that the US controls Israel like some vassal state.
Those arms you are talking about have already been appropriated by Congress, UNTIL 2028!!!
But I’m guessing that you didn’t know that because it’s a lot easier to sit on social media and wax eloquent about how foreign policy should mirror morality.
Even if we could stop the arms shit, it wouldn’t matter. Israel has it’s own military industrial complex and there are several other countries that would happily trade with Israel to give the US influence over the region a black eye.
Do you understand? Israel does not NEED our stuff. Sure it helps, but you seem to be under the delusion that if we didn’t supply weapons they wouldn’t have any. That is woefully naive and incorrect.
“But why do we give it???”
To which I repeat: Foreign policy is about power and power coupons, not morality. This is the way it is, not the way it should be. Kissinger was a soulless ghoul, but he understood exactly what foreign policy is all about (which is the main reason why most of us hated him with a fiery passion). Nixon should have ensured that he took a long stroll on the deck of a submerged submarine, but alas, missed opportunities.
Maybe one day foreign policy will resemble morality, but that day will not come for a very, very, long time. If ever.
If we have so little influence over Israel than that undermines your argument that we’re getting “power coupons” in return. I’m not even debating you on the morality of Kissinger, I’m meeting you where you stand: if we don’t exercise our influence then we are going to lose it (and Kissinger agrees with me on that at least)
You are strawmanning me. I never said no influence. I said that influence does not equal control. The us has a lot of influence, but as a parallel, did the entire rest of the world advising the us against invading iraq do anything to stop the us? No. The US said “You’re either with us or against us.”.
I also never suggested that we were getting power coupons in return. What I said was that foreign policy is about power and power coupons.
If Israel is hell bent on doing what they are doing there is no amount of influence that is going to stop them. If at that point you suggest doing it militarily, I would dismiss you for being a blithering idiot.
We have been exercising our influence. Are you fucking blind? Biden et al have been doing pretzels trying to keep this from spilling out of hand. You have to be blind. I assume you’re not an idiot. Maybe you are one of these people who are incapable of reading between the lines. Yes, in front of a microphone, Biden and anyone else says unequivocal support for Israel etc etc, however, at every other turn, Biden, Blinken, and every ambassador and negotiator is trying to get Israel to “Lessen ground operations”, “Allow humanitarian pauses”, “make a pathway for aid”, etc.
I am probably farther left than you, politically, but you need to understand that in the same way that fox news, oan, newsmax, and whatever else can whip republicans into a frothy furor, left leaning publicans can AND DO do the same to lefties. It’s very easy to leave out nuance which provides context.
I suggest spending some more time looking behind the headlines into what is actually being done, because it is a LOT. Israel is currently hellbent on being a bunch of self righteous jackasses, and so they aren’t taking a lot of advice. And a lot of the advice comes in the form of “I fully support you and we are behind you 100%, but man, I wouldn’t do that shit if I was you”.
At this point I’m done discussing this with you. You seem to want to just cling to outrage and ignore nuance because it’s easier that way, and if that’s the case, then I’m wasting our time. Additionally, you keep trying to build a straw man, and I have little patience for that sort of thing.
Maybe I would receive your arguments with more grace if it wasn’t laced with personal judgements.