A 14-year-old boy allegedly fatally shot his older sister in Florida after a family argument over Christmas presents, officials said Tuesday.
The teen had been out shopping on Christmas Eve with Abrielle Baldwin, his 23-year-old sister, as well as his mother, 15-year-old brother and sister’s children, Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri said during a news conference.
The teenage brothers got into an argument about who was getting more Christmas presents.
“They had this family spat about who was getting what and what money was being spent on who, and they were having this big thing going on in this store,” Gualtieri said.
Just as the architects of the Constitution intended
At 14 and 15, both of these kids are too young to legally own a pistol in Florida.
https://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs2.aspx
So, yeah, pretty sure they aren’t concerned with the Constitution.
You’ve made an excellent point, just not the one you think
You’re playing chess with pigeons, I wouldn’t bother
That those kids got the guns illegally and would have done so regardless of what laws were in place? That point?
Ah yes, the “If it’s not going to stop 100% of the problem, let’s not do it at all” bullshit.
That old chestnut.
If random check stops don’t stop 100% of drunk drivers, why do them at all. Your just punishing the drivers who AREN’T driving drunk!
If seatbelts don’t save 100% of lives, why regulate that we wear them. Muh Freedums!!
It bullshit excuses made by people with literally nothing of any real sense to fall back on.
Not on that guy’s side, but he didn’t strictly say that we shouldn’t have those laws.
He said that if you’re siteing a case where we did have those laws and a bad thing happened as an example for why we need laws like that in place to stop the bad thing from happening, it falls a little flat.
Not that the idea of having laws like that is bad, but citing individual cases is flawed, as no amount of regulatory structure will ever prevent 100% of cases.
To frame it a different way, I could argue that there’s literally no country on earth with strong enough gun laws, because there’s no country with zero gun deaths. I could argue that we need random searches of people homes to try and find guns, or imprisoning people who talk about guns, because the current laws clearly aren’t good enough because people are still getting shot. Doesn’t matter if it was only 1 incident in the past 30yrs. Still happened, so we need stricter laws.
That’s obviously an absurd level of hyperbole, and I want to reiterate that I’m all for regulation on firearms. Just wanted to point out that the core argument here is unideal.
The guy said “would have done so regardless of what laws were in place”.
As in, this happened, and there are already laws, so there’s no point in stronger laws or more restrictions.
That’s like saying “Sure, there are hundreds of fatalities in this factory, but they already get 10c fines whenever there’s an at-fault accident. The accidents would have happened regardless of the fines! There’s no point in higher fines since the fines have shown they’re not working!”
That’s all valid, but I think you’ve missed my point.
While I disagree with “the laws did nothing so why have laws,” I also disagree with, “the laws didn’t work, so we need harsher laws.” Both are flawed logically.
There is, in fact, a level of restriction that goes too far in the name of preventing crime. We could lock everyone in jail for instance, as people in cages can’t commit crimes (ymmv). That’s obviously a bad idea though, for many reasons.
And I’m with you. I think we need to evaluate what that right balance is. What I was pushing back on was the idea that, “if there’s even one gun death ever, then the laws didn’t go far enough, and we need more restrictions,” which I took to be the sentiment of the OP. That lack of nuance worries me is all.
I don’t know if the gun laws that were violated were good enough or not. I didn’t look them up, tbh. But you can have all the laws in the world, and have them be completely useless if they aren’t properly enforced. Maybe the laws are actually good, and the enforcement mechanism is flawed? Maybe both are good and this is just an unfortunate side effect of it being impossible to police everyone all the time. Or maybe the laws themselves are flawed and the OP is right that something needs changing. I don’t know. But I do know that it’s a big issue with a lot of nuance, and that a knee jerk reaction of “we need more laws” is unhelpful at best and detrimental at worst.
Well, in MY state random stops ARE illegal. Thanks Oregon! Frankly, I’m surprised more states haven’t done that.
https://romanolawpc.com/oregon-dui-checkpoints/
There are things that CAN be done, you just have to start with rejecting the idea of “hurrr durrr take all the guns” because that can’t be done due to the 2nd amendment.
In THIS case, we know the two kids already had priors for car burglaries.
So #1) You find out who legally owned those guns, then you charge them with improper storage and/or failure to report a stolen weapon.
#2) When kids are arrested for a crime like burglary, you search their homes to make sure weapons weren’t anything that were burgled.
“The solution to ensuring our freedom to own guns is to restrict all our other freedoms. “
Our other freedoms aren’t restricted though.
Wow you’re a moron
Really? Well, what would your solution be?
Keep in mind, banning guns is not an option because of the 2nd Amendment and changing the 2nd amendment is currently a political impossibility.
Sooo? Thoughts?
Imagine applying that logic to anything else:
“He would have been murdered regardless of what laws were in place. There’s no reason to change the penalty for murder! The 10c fine already ensures that only criminals will murder other people.”
“The city already has a firefighter, and the city block still burned down! What’s the point in adding more firefighters if we already have a firefighter and we still get major fires?”
…
The kids got the guns illegally because it’s incredibly easy to get illegal guns in the US. The biggest reason for that is that it’s so incredibly easy to get legal guns too. In places like Japan or England where it’s hard to get legal guns, it’s extremely hard to get illegal guns, so the criminals tend not to use illegal guns.
If “would have done so regardless” were true, there should be no difference in gun crime in the UK vs the US. But, they’re not. It’s not because the US has far more of a problem with mental illness or something, it’s because the tool designed for killing is harder to get.
regardless of what laws were in place?
Oh come on, regardless of where you stand on the issue, you can’t think of any change in law could contain that would prevent someone from getting a gun?
FTA:
“Both teens have prior arrests for car burglaries.”
Seems likely they stole the guns from cars, so maybe make it illegal to keep your gun in your car?
Hard to say until the gun origins are traced back, but they weren’t legally purchased by or for the kids.
Seems likely they stole the guns from cars, so maybe make it illegal to keep your gun in your car?
Hmm, so the source of the guns were the cars that were broken into. Hmm, yes. So what law can you imagine that would have even prevented the option for those gun owners to keep guns in their cars? C’mon, you’ve got this. Hint: How did the car owners get the guns?
Nothing that could be blocked because of the 2nd amendment. You can’t prevent people from legally owning guns.
Now, if you want to get rid of the 2nd amendment, we have a process for that…
First you get 290 votes in the House, then you get 67 votes in the Senate, then you get ratification from 38 states, so all 25 Biden states +13 Trump states.
Good luck with that!
Ah, so the gun was purchased legally by one of those trustworthy, responsible members of the well-regulated militia. Nothing to see here, then.
“Well regulated militia” didn’t mean the same thing back then.
Well regulated = well armed and equipped.
Militia = general public who could be called up at a moments notice for public defense.See:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/
“The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.”
So:
“A well armed and equipped public, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Your comment has been reported, but as you had links and appeared to be arguing in good-faith, I decided to leave it. With that said, I completely disagree with your words.
Review Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 15-16.
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
Militia was what we now call “National Guard”. Speaking from experience, as a former guardsman as well as vet in 2 other branches. Back when I went to basic, this was well discussed as a given. I’m surprised people think otherwise to this day.
Unfortunately, it’s the Supreme Court who defines such things and, as cited in D.C. vs. Miller above, they very clearly set the definition as noted.
Since that ruling, they have further clarified it in McDonald vs. City of Chicago (necessary because Heller involved Washington D.C., which isn’t a state).
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/561/742/
Generally when I point out these inconvenient facts the response is “well, who cares what the Supreme Court says! Get the court to reverse it!”
Which, sure, can be done, we saw that with Roe vs. Wade, all it took was 50 years and the appointment of one conservative judge after another.
In theory we could flip the court, Thomas and Alito are the two oldest members of the court and highly conservative, so electing a Democratic President in '24 and again in '28 would virtually assure flipping the court.
Then the problem becomes keeping it, because the next three oldest are Roberts, Sotomayor and Kagan.
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Oh man, I think I saw a fish swim by. It was definitely not blue or yellow, either!
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What if I told you it’s much easier to use and illegal gun when they are readily available?
Only country where this happens regularly to not have figured anything out. Stop embarrassing yourself and just post thoughts and prayers
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I didn’t make any argument about legal gun ownership. Guns are legal in my country and this doesn’t happen.
Read into arguments much? You had already set your mind on what I was saying before you read it
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The solution is to examine how these guns got out of the legal system and into the illegal system.
The 2nd Amendment isn’t going anywhere so you can take that pipedream off the table barring 290 votes in the House, 67 votes in the Senate, and ratification from 38 states.
So what CAN we do?
Well…
#1) Hold gun owners accountable for storing a gun in something like a car that can be easily be broken into or stolen.
#2) When kids are arrested for something like burglary, you search their homes for weapons.
So to start with: universal registration and ID/licensing for gun ownership, and strict liability on registered owners for crimes committed by their guns.
I’m in, sounds great.
2nd Amendment. Can’t be done. “Shall not be infringed.”
Add to that the most recent ruling from the Supreme Court:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/597/20-843/
“the government must affirmatively prove that its firearms regulation is part of the historical tradition that delimits the outer bounds of the right to keep and bear arms.”
This is a new twist from the Supremes. Gun laws must prove that they are in keeping with “historical tradition”. So, banning felons from owning guns is allowed, there’s an historical tradition for that.
So if there’s no historical basis, it won’t pass muster at the Supremes.
That Jordan Lund is too stupid to insult
you know those minors, always committing major felonies no matter whatcha try to do.
FTA:
“Both teens have prior arrests for car burglaries.”
So, yeah, apparently so… probably where they got the guns.
Guess what, if those kids were breaking into cars in London, there’s 0 chance they would’ve acquired guns that way (not to mention, it’s irresponsible to store a gun in a car to begin with).
England doesn’t have a 2nd Amendment, but yeah, kids killing kids seems pretty universal:
Yeah, if only there weren’t so many millions of guns in this country that literally any pubescent dumbshit and his brother can get one illegally without any effort! But yeah no the system is flawless and the problem unfixable cool yeah I agree.
I’ve seen estimates of 475 million+ guns in a country of 330 million+ people, so, yeah. Tons of guns and not enough people taking securing them seriously.
These kids being car burglars makes perfect sense too… here’s a stat from my city:
https://katu.com/news/local/car-gun-thefts-increase-portland-police-say
"Kapp said nearly half of stolen gun reports from that last 15 months were firearms stolen from personal vehicles.
“That’s 47% of guns are stolen because they were stored in a vehicle; either the vehicle was broken into or the vehicle is stolen with a gun inside. That is a huge number,” said Kapp.
Kapp said gun owners should also have documentation, like serial numbers, in secure, safe spaces."
You would think by now that people would know “Don’t leave ANYTHING of value in your car!” but apparently not!
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EXACTLY RIGHT! That’s why need to outlaw Abortion, have speed limits, make fraud illegal, make murder and illegal and keep all other laws in place! Because laws DON’T WORK!
Trying to regulate the weapons used in our hellscape dystopia is just a method of maintaining the hellscape and avoiding any real change to society at large.
avoiding any real change to society at large.
So which changes would you suggest to help solve this problem?
Not owned, but easy and unhindered access to one. That is the problem : Way too many guns for way too little brains.
Agreed, and based on their rap sheets for car burglaries, a likely source of the guns.
Which goes back to the two points I made in other posts:
-
Any dumbass who keeps a gun unsecured in their car needs to be held accountable.
-
When these kids were busted for burglaries, their homes needed to be searched for any and all stolen goods ESPECIALLY stolen guns.
-
I don’t recall the forefathers mentioning the age for gun ownership. Toddlers need to protect themselves against perverted republicans. #babyArms
It wasn’t the founders, it was the Gun Control Act of 1968 that blocked anyone under the age of 18 from owning a long gun and anyone under the age of 21 from owning a pistol.
As the 2nd amendment says:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, well-regulated militias shall have the right to keep and bear arms. Also, in a twist completely unrelated to that other sentence, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I’m talking rifles, muskets, flintlocks, hell, even futuristic weapons nobody’s invented yet. Not part of a militia? Doesn’t matter. Completely unregulated? That’s right. Also, by ‘people’ we mean everyone: kids, witches, the addled, it’s a free for all!
Of course, most people only know the final trimmed-down edited version of that amendment. The original was much better, IMO.
Your command of the English language is… incomplete. Read this, then re-read your comment:
https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/2ll/schol/2amd_grammar.htm
Fuck the United States. Only place in the world this fucking shit happens regularly , because a bunch of small dick Republicans won’t give up their guns.
Careful there, lemmy has a bunch of gun nut weirdos
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Do you post on skinhead social because Gun Control Is Rooted in Disarming Black Americans
oh do kindly fuck off.
Libertarian reactionaries in general.
exactly 8, it seems
Well Technically… Of the 150 plus democracies on the planet only three have a constitutional right to firearms. The USA, Mexico and Guatemala… Of those Mexico actually has actually fairly heavy restrictions on what firearms are covered by the Constitution and which are restricted to police and military use.
So realistically this sort of thing happens in the US and Guatemala… If it is any consolation the US is flagging way behind Guatemala in gun related deaths when you adjust for population?
Well technically, Czech Republic had a constitutional amendment regarding gun rights passed in 2021.
Oh did they? I will have to amend my notes! Good catch!
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It is definitely the person who pulled the trigger’s fault, but I don’t understand why we would want minors whose brains haven’t fully developed to have point-and-kill weapons.
You point out how awful these kids are, and then post in support of making it easier for them to kill. That’s strange to me.
Although I guess it makes sense, because you also seem to imply that deaths aren’t more likely to occur if guns are involved. I just can’t agree with you there.
Again, this shit only happens in the US. Guns are a big part of the problem. Don’t be fucking dense.
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Would you be this riled up if you read the same story but it was about a stabbing?
How to protect yourself from a knife attack: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JfAYyZoVy5o
(Note how this doesn’t work if they have a gun)
Oh?
You’re sure (guarantee) that this would have been a stabbing? What makes you such an expert?
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in multiple separate comments you have demonstrated a total inability to think beyond half a layer of depth. you are out of your element and have a great deal to learn. I truly hope that one day you do.
So we’re just going to keep repeating this exact conversation every single time this happens. Because other countries don’t have systems, or people with fingers.
“i think i’ll be a mouthpiece today, that’s all i’m good for”
“There is no way to prevent this from happening” says only country in which this regularly happens.
It’s actually more like 40%-50% of the country though.
Dude I lean center left…it’s not just Republicans that care about gun rights you dumbass. LOT of gun owners also are democrats. Stop trying to one side an issue. Thenissue isn’t guns it’s literally the owners and yea I’ll be damned if I give up my firearms cause you want me to. My guns stay locked up in my safe at all times. My kids know they aren’t toys and can seriously hurt someone. I keep the keys to that safe with me.
Secondly taking away legal and lawful gun owners guns will NOT stop people who don’t follow the law from obtaining guns and doing bad shit with them. Grow the fuck up.
More guns in the hands of the other children would have kept this travesty from occurring. #hopesandprayers
'Murica!
If the 11-month old was armed, all this could have been stopped!
Jesus.
The 14 year old brother shot his 23 year old sister.
Then the 15 year old brother shot the 14 year old brother, and disposed of the handgun.
The 23 year old sister is dead. The 14 year old brother is stable.
The 14 year old is being charged with first degree murder. The 15 year old is being charged with attempted first degree murder.
The sister had a child, which was not harmed.
Everything about this is messed up and tragic
…and preventable. Emotional teenagers should not have access to firearms!
Emotional teenagers should not have access to firearms!
Emotional humans should not have access to firearms, except under exceptional circumstances.
The US military knows this and it’s why most people on military bases are not allowed to walk around armed, though they all have access to weapons when necessary.
They also shouldn’t be out stealing cars.
Guns shouldn’t be in cars if they’re not at least locked somehow
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As a gun owner, yea I fucking agree. Get a co cenceal carry and carry that shit in and out of the car. Di not leave and and do not leave it visible. Responsible gun owners don’t have any of these issues. But look at the area the kids were in and the illegal shit they were already doing, that shit is being overlook by almost everyone here just cause a gun was involved. Ffs.
honestly if your gun is stolen you should be charged with anything that happens with it too. thats actually genius no sarcasm. and an extra charge that it was able to be stolen in the first place.
Stuff getting stolen is a fact of life no matter how secure. Maybe in cases of negligence, but if it’s locked up then someone breaking the lock shouldn’t mean you’re considered a party to the crime they use it for
This whole thing is tragic and beyond dumb.
It would be tragic if this didn’t feel like reading a weather report.
It’s also tragic because it feels like reading a weather report
The 23 year old sister had 2 children, one of which was already 6 years old, if my reading skills aren’t failing me.
he’s going to kill his uncle when he’s like 12
This reads like a shitty math problem.
Jamal, 14M, shoots his 23 year old sister, Abriele, dead. Abriele had a 6 year old son How many years will it take for the 6 year old to be old enough to kill his Uncle in cold blood on Christmas? And what age will Jamal be?
The sister had a child, which was not harmed.
Arguable
Apparently the sister died from drowning on her OWN blood.
Anyway, merry jolly Christmas everyone!
The sister had a child, which was not harmed.
I thought you said “armed”, and if only… if that kid had been packing he could have been the good guy with a gun who would have mowed down all the bad guys and saved the day.
What a wonderful family, with a lot of stable geniuses!
That family reunion is going to awkward AF next year.
The bullet traveled through her left arm and into her chest, popping both of her lungs. She suffered internal bleeding and was unable to breathe
That’s the nice way of saying she drowned in her own blood.
“These young kids — 14, 15 years old — routinely carry firearms and this is what happens when you got young delinquents that carry guns,” Gualtieri said. “They get upset, they don’t know how to handle stuff, and they end up shooting each other.”
Just FYI, this is not limited to children. There’s plenty of adults who have zero idea on how to handle stress without flashing a piece. I’ve seen about six different people use that as a method of indicating I’m getting over in your lane on my way into work pre-pandemic.
I’m pretty gullible and I believe a lot of stuff. So I’m asking this sincerely.
Are you saying that in America people are tapping their widow with a Glock and giving you the stink eye to get into your lane? Like, instead of indicating and then waiting for a safe gap?
America is pretty big, and that isn’t something that happens where I live (Seattle)
But there are parts of this country where a surprisingly large percentage of people are completely fucking insane and peacock with weapons in reckless ways. It also isn’t unusual for children to have guns, even if it isn’t legal.
There’s a high school in rural Colorado that has given up on doing anything about guns in their high school because something like 30% of students are armed on any given day.
I grew up in Tennessee, and students were allowed to store guns in their cars parked in the high school parking lot.
I have met many people who open-carry and then openly emphasize it to others because they want to be intimidating. It’s a part of their identity, and they will let you know in inappropriate ways.
This country is weird. I’m happy to live in a less violent part of it.
Bro…what??? CHAZ was literally in Seattle…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest
Tn has two areas that have a serious gang problem. From those two areas comes like 85% of its crime. Everyone carries there and it’s not the wild West like you’re trying to make it out to be.
Found the Fox News watcher.
Protip: The CHOP/CHAZ was a 3-week protest that closed a single neighborhood intersection, and ended over 3 years ago. The only people who think that it is an example of how dangerous Seattle is are people who watch right-wing news and have never set foot in Seattle…
Fox News literally reported on it as if it were another country. They referred to it as if it as the “US/CHAZ border”, and overreported about it like it was the story of the century. Spoiler: they just hate progressive cities like Seattle, and were willing to say anything that would arouse their boomer viewership.
It was basically an unauthorized block party created to stimulate an extended 2020 BLM protest.
Yes, there was some violence, but at such a small scale it had zero effect on the city’s already low violent crime rate.
But keep going about how racial justice protests make you feel unsafe…
Lol people died but naaaa it’s cool it was just a small problem.
https://www.axios.com/local/seattle/2023/11/08/washington-crime-rate-up-statistics-chart
It might have been a low crime city 30 years ago but it’s not anymore.
Also hilariously funny how you instantly think I’m a right wing repub. Keep thinking that while you argue with someone who is pro-choice, wants single payer, wants the war on drugs to end and qualified immunity repealed and also marched with the protestors during the BLM movement…but sure…keep putting your head in the sand.
One person and that’s because the paramedics refused to enter and save the person.
If you find it frustrating that people think you’re a right winger, consider not talking like one.
Yes because right wingers want all the stuff I’ve just stated…have you wondered why the Republican party still exists? It’s not because the Dems are fantastic… it’s because they won’t leave the damn guns alone. You tear that one last thing from the repubs and it’s a dem win for decades.
Lol fucking clown. Never even been to a city have you
Naa never been at all, I’m just some backwoods hick liberal…
https://www.axios.com/local/seattle/2023/11/08/washington-crime-rate-up-statistics-chart
Clown…
The fact that you go ad hominem with every comment indicates that you are conservative and completely out of touch.
You clearly don’t know what a conservative is then.
Wow, Seattle’s crime rate grew by 15% between 2019 and 2023? Wow, that’s crazy. As we all know, absolutely nothing significant has happened in the past 4 years, and the crime rate nationwide remained static. /s
Are you going to tell me it’s because of covid? Or do you want to actually understand that more people have moved their and now you have more crime? It’s average for the rest of the USA…
The George Floyd protests were outliers and the bigger picture shows that Tennessee is one of the most violent states in the country: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_violent_crime_rate.
Even if you look at homicides per county, violence in TN is pretty widespread: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Granted, Washington state’s homicides look fairly evenly distributed there but the worst areas are outside of Seattle. Also, based on your description of TN I’d expect it to look like Illinois where most homicides occurs in specific areas of Chicago
Memphis and Nashville… that’s where the gangs are and where the majority of the violence is. This isn’t an unknown thing. Both counties that hold those cities are have a high murder rate. This goes for basically all large cities, it shouldn’t be a surprise.
Funny how Seattle is dangerous because of BLM, and Tennessee is dangerous because of Memphis (majority Black city), and “gangs”.
I definitely see a pattern with what you consider dangerous…
O nooo the white privileged white guy is pointing out that only black people are in gangs…the fuck is wrong with you? Can’t refute points…run to the defense of calling someone a racist. Get a grip child.
I literally lived in the CHOP. My apartment was where it was founded. Just stop, other than the police abusing people and paramedics allowing people to die, nothing at all happened.
Reno 911! did a bit on this topic. Metal detector at school, manned by the sherriffs. They’d let you surrender your piece and keep it until you left. They had a valet wall behind them and like, claim tags and shit.
I apologize for the tiktok link: https://www.tiktok.com/@reno911tvfan/video/7216351539382979886
I’ve never seen someone flash a gun in my almost 30 years in the US.
I live in Texas and see people strapped pretty often, but they usually aren’t like waving it around or anything.
I think it is generally unlikely but am also sure that there are places where this is part of the culture.
In Florida you’re allowed to use lethal force if you justifiably believe that your safety is threatened. When lockdown first started, there was a video of a dude having a meltdown at a Costco because he had to wear a mask. The person at the door was a woman of 65-70 and the man child pumped up his chest and yelled “I feel threatened” at her, which I learned in Florida for threatening to murder someone over an inconvenience.
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Jesus. Where the fuck do you live that people do that?
Go into any of the relationship subreddits today and for the next few days and you will see countless Americans melting down into various degrees of rage and bitterness over Xmas presents.
It’s like this very goddamn year.
Can anyone explain this part of the culture to me?
I’m not saying I hate all Americans or anything ridiculous like that, the cast majority of Americans I’ve met are good hearted people but when it comes to Xmas and in what I’m given understand is the modern vernacular: “y’all cray.”
Don’t any of your families still watch the Charlie Brown Christmas? Because you really should.
There are 335 million people in the United States.
One asshat shot someone.
I’m not defending guns, shitty culture, or shitty people, but this is clearly a case where this kid has some sort of mental disorder. Literally hundreds of millions of families watched Charlie Brown and went the entire holiday without murdering each other
There were 89 shootings in the united states on Christmas day. Source with incident reports for each one.
See, if it were 90 I could understand you being upset…, but it’s just 89! are we really going to make a scene about 89 totally avoidable deaths ?? when we could just enjoy Christmas with the children we might lose tomorrow ?
(thanks for the source)
No it is not clearly a case where the kid has some sort of mental disorder. You know literally nothing about this person.
I would probably bet that this kid made a stupid split second choice in the heat of the moment about something that (partially likely due to raging teenage hormones) probably seemed very important at the time, and the guilt will haunt him until the end of his life (which, statistically speaking, just got much shorter on average).
This is exactly why guns are so dangerous. It gives people (in this case, a literal child without a fully developed brain) the capability to make a decision to end another life in a split second.
You really think any sane rational FOURTEEN year old would just shoot their sister solely because of a Christmas gift?
I’m not saying 14 year olds have adult mental capacity and decision making … but by that age you KNOW what a gun goes and you KNOW you can’t take it back.
Either there’s more to the story or this kid definitely has some kind of mental disorder or mental distress that they needed to see a therapist about.
Maybe the more to the story is that he thought he could just scare her by pointing the gun at her or her thought it was empty … and it wasn’t/the gun went off. If that’s the case, then the parents really screwed up having a gun in the house, not teaching the kid anything about gun safety, and allowing the kid across to the gun (granted again by 14 you’re pretty smart … the average 14 year old could probably figure out the code or were the keys are kept on a gun safe because I know most people do not follow best practices with any passwords or keys).
And before you make any assumptions like you did with the other person, I’ve voted for Democrats in every election, donated some significant money to their campaigns, and I do not own a gun and do not have any restrictions that prevent me from owning a gun, I’ve just decided that for me … particularly with living alone and a (granted not recent) history of depression that included suicidal thoughts … they’re not a good thing to have around. I avoid alcohol for similar reasons.
Thoughts and prayers might be a meaningless response but a huge block of the population has said “we’re not giving up our guns” … come to think of it … just like a huge block of the population has said “we’re not giving up our alcohol” (as is their right at the polls).
There is a majority that would like to see some common sense gun reform and we should do that. However, I believe the right has a point about mental health and guns. What they don’t have is the willingness to fund mental health systems and instead they blame all the mental health issues on a degraded culture (🙄). We need to bring mental health back into the conversation with information from professionals. They also have a point about teaching kids about gun safety, if we’re going to keep guns, then it’s a public disservice to not teach kids (or at least the kids of gun owners) “this is what a gun is, don’t point it at anything you don’t want to kill” and “there’s a difference between pretend and reality, these are never for pretend” as a baseline.
Yes. Countless stories of children murdering their parents over this stuff. It’s very common. Remember that the country is big with lots of people so you’re going to see these things from time to time-it’s statistically likely to happen.
What are you arguing here? That it happens and it’s not mental illness because there are so many people that it’s bound to happen?
No. That with that many people, there are enough whackos that this sort of thing will constantly be in the news even though when compared to the population size the events are still extraordinarily rare.
Murdering another human is a sign of mental disorder. Especially if it’s in a case like this. I don’t think it’s possible to argue “this human is acting rationally, losing control of yourself to the point where you literally murder someone is, indeed, a sign of mental stability.”
Also, access to guns isn’t the reason people murder each other.
In Christmas Day a 36 year old stabbed 2 children, 2 girls aged 14 and 16, for no other reason than seemingly, they weren’t white. A fucking racist asshole decided to attempt to murder kids. Is this person not suffering from a mental disorder? Should we stop people from owning knives too?
Again, I have never said this was about gun ownership. People who think violent crime stops if guns are gone are delusional. It’s such a rhetorical trap. I bet conservative leadership in the United States love when liberals make this an issue, it’s one of huge issues that motivates their base.
This is now, and always will be, a public health issue. You want less people to be victims of violent crime? Give us universal healthcare that also covers mental illness. Make it free, make education high quality, and free too. Crime will go down, violence will go down.
The political discourse about guns disguises that entire debate. And it’s stupid that people fall for it.
The political discourse about guns disguises that entire debate. And it’s stupid that people fall for it.
Only stupid people say dumb shit like “guns aren’t the problem, the ONLY problem is mental health”. People can expect reform in two separate yet connected topics. One can absolutely impact the other.
Yeah, a crazy fucker stabbed a couple girls. He had a knife. I WISH that the crazy fucker who shot up entire classrooms at Uvalde or Sandy Hook had only had a knife.
Provide better mental health AND tighter gun control policies.
I have never said anything about gun control, for it or against it.
This is a mental health issue. Happy, well adjusted people don’t murder other people.
It’s interesting you mention Sandy Hook. Did you know on the same day in China a mentally ill person ran through a Chinese school and stabbed 22 kids in the fucking head?
Stabbings in Chinese schools are a huge issue. The person killed 8 of the kids by stabbing them in the head.
But sure, keep focusing on guns. Let’s put all of our effort into that. That’s clearly more important than free, publicly funded mental healthcare.
I have never said anything about gun control, for it or against it.
You’re apparently saying that we shouldn’t be focusing on guns because mental health is more important…
But sure, keep focusing on guns. Let’s put all of our effort into that. That’s clearly more important than free, publicly funded mental healthcare.
We can surely do both at the same time, don’t you think?
I really don’t.
The whole topic, in the current political environment, is so polarizing and so toxic, I think it torpedoes any progress that could be made in reducing gun violence.
I believe gun violence will go down if people have better mental healthcare, better access to housing, and better job prospects. My personal belief is people who commit violence against others are doing so because of mental disease. If you reduce their stress, make their future prospects better, and tell them they have a future, their prospects, and mental health, will improve.
America is more polarized now than it ever has been. A conservative and a liberal will never agree on gun control. They just won’t. But I do think a liberal and a conservative can agree that violence is a problem, and that conservatives would be willing to consider solutions to it that aren’t simply making firearms illegal.
It obviously wouldn’t reduce gun violence to 0 like a ban would, but focusing on it as a mental health issue, and addressing that, would reduce other forms of violent crime too. Less muggings, stabbing, rapes, etc. I believe, taken as a whole, there would be less crime and drastically less violent crime, doing that, than any kind of firearm ban could achieve.
Edit: the downvotes prove my point. American politics right now care more about winning whatever hot button issue someone has, rather than cooperating to make meaningful change.
How about everyone reading this does a mental exercise. Let’s say liberals decided not to care about gun control, and that issue wasn’t relevant in American politics for the last 20 years. Do you think the current supreme court would look the way it does? Do you think organizations like the NRA would have anywhere near the funding and power they have now? How many single issue conservative voters did simply not show up to vote if there was 0 chance a liberal majority would “take their guns”
How convenient for you: a kid shoots and kills another kid, and just by default, you can make all sorts of assumptions about their mental health, and use it as a scapegoat, before the topic of firearms can even be brought up.
Please save us all the time and energy and don’t pretend like you actually give a single shit about funding mental health care. A thing conservatives have also gone out of their way to de-fund.
Interesting you’d label a guy advocating for universal healthcare and increased education spending a conservative.
You’re not even listening to my arguments.
If it was the only shooting that day, it would have been a peaceful one for a change. Hint: It wasn’t.
Like I said, I’m not defending guns.
What I hate is people who attack where I live, with sweeping generalizations about how shitty a place it is. It isn’t. The United States is entirely neutral. There are good things about it and bad things about it. Every country has their issues, and reducing violent crimes to such a simplistic focus as “lol, guns bad, USA sucks” is catastrophically stupid.
One of the main ways I judge people is if they punch down. A good example of this is Trump’s feud with Greta Thunberg. At the time he was president of the United States. And she was a 16 year old autistic girl. Think about that. For a time the president of the United States, a person with literal tens of thousands of nuclear weapons at their disposal, decided that a 16 year old, foreign, autistic girl needed the focus of his ire. That’s punching down. And it’s classless.
So if you think the United States is shit, that’s fine. But if you live in a place that you think is so much better than it, you can say that in a way that’s constructive. There’s no need to attack somebody or some thing you think you’re better than
The United States is entirely neutral.
No. Definitely not. When it comes to violent crimes, with guns or otherwise, the US is anything but “neutral”. It is a sore point sticking out of all western countries.
There’s no need to attack somebody or some thing you think you’re better than
Well, it is a fact that shootings are an everyday occurrence in the US. Heck, even mass shootings (plural!) are a normal, everyday occurrence in the US, to the point that mass shootings with less than ten dead people rarely make the news anymore in the US. I’m not attacking you, I’m just stating the facts. But yes, I think any place in the world where things like that are not normal, everyday events is inherently a better place. Try to change my mind on that.
340M.
Go toxic places to read toxic things. I’ve never heard of this. But also I can’t imagine going to a relationship board and expecting to come away with anything but misanthropy regardless of time of year.
Materialism is really big with a lot of people. My in-laws kids are spoiled rotten and only accept big brand name stuff because that’s all their parents give them for Christmas and Birthdays. Same people who can’t afford to pay their mortgage and are likely to lose the house in a few months.
I like present-less holidays. Better to focus on just being with people I find. Also helps if there’s a lot of good, homemade food.
I like present-less holidays. Better to focus on just being with people I find.
presence > presents
For me it’s all about consumables and experience. You like sauerkraut? I just made you a jar. You like classical music? Here are two tickets to the symphony. I just avoid stuff unless it’s like plates for someone who moved into their first apartment.
Americans live in a state of constant stress that is satiated by material possessions and trying to impress or be better than others. These kids were just trying to get their dose of imbalanced brain chemicals
Entirely too many people base their self worth on what other people think of them.
So “I didn’t get enough shinies” = “nobody really loves me” = “I’m a worthless human being”.
Alternately “I didn’t get enough shinies for my kids” = “I’m a bad parent” = “I’m a worthless human being.”
Then that gets reflected outwards, poorly. :(
Breaking that cycle of seeking approval from other people is one of the hardest things you can do. At our core, we all seek validation on some level or other.
Is it all about how terrible the gf/bf is for not magically getting the super perfectist thing ever?
It’s mostly people running a mental ledger then comparing the value of presents to how much they do in the relationship as a journal for the shortfall in gift value.
Often siblings resenting one another for perceived (or even sometimes objectively clear) favouritism.
The sibling thing I get.
Anyone who does the first one isn’t ready for relationships.
15-year-old brother and sister’s children
This sentence is a great argument for the Oxford comma.
The sentence is a great argument for editorial oversight. How’d a copy editor let that go to print???
Copy editor got laid off
*ChatGPT please copy edit this for me"
This whole article was confusing for me.
There are 2 brothers and 1 sister, who has her own child.
14 year old brother shoots 23 year old sister.
15 year old brother shoots 14 year old brother in retaliation.
Writing isn’t difficult, but most journalists suck donkey shit at what they do.
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I got a little lazy with the copy/paste. The first item of the series isn’t in the quote.
That’s it no more guns… For minors that is.
Are you suggesting to take away my God given second amendment right?
Unironically yes.
‘God given’ is the fucking funniest part about this.
While God isn’t real, it is a colloquial term for natural or inherent rights. All of the rights acknowledged in the Bill of Rights are considered natural rights.
The part about it being an amendment is even funnier imo. It didn’t even make the original document.
Its not god given and yes it should be taken away. Constitutions can be changed or what do you think amendment means?
I’m like 97% sure OP was being sarcastic
Thanks commander data, now go join the borg
Did you know gun control was invented to disarm black activists? You really support Ronald Regan’s RACIST policies??? Figures, bootlicker
Then do it. Get the 75% super majority that you seem believe exists who agree with you that the right to bear arms should be taken away, and amend the constitution.
Whooosh.
Missing the /s there, too many folks taking you seriously.
lol you’ll need to point at the right part of a holy book and convince us that the Abrahamic god wants you to have guns.
Isia 69:420: lo and the lord said. Carry a strap. And they did.
Above poster was joking I assume
For minors yes. Unless they take safety classes for at least 3yrs.
Totally reasonable to require children to be at least 3 before they can own a gun. /s
Only whites should have guns as the Mulford Act intended
You need to put ‘/s’ at the end of your post so people know you’re being sarcastic.
If only there was a good sibling with a gun to stop him…
technically, there was 😐
There was - it made things worse:
“The 15-year-old brother came outside with his own semiautomatic handgun and allegedly shot the younger teen in the stomach”
Strict liability for whoever was the legal owner of the gun(s), I say.
Whoever let these children get their hands on the firearm is absolutely a murderer. Even if it someone who let their gun get stolen from their car. Definitely if it was a family member or friend.
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Can’t speak for Moldova or Austria, but I would not call Switzerland’s gun laws liberal.
They are VERY strict. Gun ownership rates are high, but there are tons of restrictions and licensing requirements on ownership and sale of guns there. The country is proof that having a strong regulatory structure does not necessarily prevent gun ownership and should absolutely be considered a model for where the US regulator environment should be moving (universal registration including 2nd hand sales, full license checks for all purchases including ammo, effective bans on large categories of weapons, mandatory training, and the like).
People who love “gun rights” always cite Switzerland without even doing the most basic Wikipedia-level research on it.
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and Austria have very liberal gun laws, again possibly more so than in USA,
Austria has relatively relaxed gun laws for Europe. but it’s still fairly strict compared to the USA.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t those places where you’re required to take some kind of classes to be able to qualify to own a gun? Isn’t it also pretty easy for anyone from the police to be able to take them from you within reason if they find you to be violating some laws?
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Depends on the state if it’s required. Not required in Kansas, but required in Minnesota as an example
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Even if it someone who let their gun get stolen from their car.
No.
America is hell.
A lot of third world countries are.
Three years ago I had to stop my 17 year-old adopted sister from hitting our elderly mother over $30 of missing Amazon crap on Christmas day, then I called the sheriff on she and her baby daddy. Five cars came to mediate the situation.
Needless to say, I don’t go to family Christmases anymore.
Families suck.
Sorry to hear that. That’s awful. If you have your own family in the future, that’s your chance to make sure nothing like that happens in it. We learn from the mistakes we experience.
I honestly feel like we get better with each generation from experiences like this.
I’ve read too many history books to think that things get better with our species over time, and my time is too valuable to me to waste on kids, but that’s just me.
I hope the choices you’ve made are fulfilling for you.
Oh I’m certain our generation is kinder to our kids than those that came before us. History shows us a lot of cruelty to each other over the years but it also shows us a huge improvement over time, particularly in the last 60 odd years.
But thanks I appreciate where you’re coming from and for sure I’m a better dad than my dad was and for sure he was a better dad than his dad was.
Hopefully we’re getting there. :)
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I learned to be happy on my own, which is the best thing ever if you ask me.
I don’t need other people to live a fulfilling life, and I hope I never feel like I need anyone but myself.
Lol, what? I’d beat the shit out of her if she tried to lay a hand on me mom.
She’d learn real fucking quick about what it really means to beat on someone weaker than you.
It’s a nice thought but I’m pretty sure my beating the shit out of a 17 year-old girl wouldn’t have reflected well on me in front of five sheriff’s deputies.
And Florida’s answer to this, along with so much of the country, is more guns. Absolute insanity
muricaaaaaaa!!!111!!
A daily occurrence in Red States, unfortunately.
I mean, probably true, but misleading? You’re definitely way more likely to get shot in pretty much any major US city, almost all of which are blue.
Not making any value judgement of one vs another. Just saying that this particular issue is pretty ubiquitous. Definitely not just a “red state” thing.
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/16/america-gun-deaths-crime-south
It’s actually both a huge and growing issue in red states specifically. Plus the guns people are using in crimes in states with more restrictive gun laws are coming from the states with less restrictive gun laws.
Basically, the more people who have guns, the more likely those people are to use those guns. Go figure.
Those figures are per capita however. So while there are more gun deaths in California, you are significantly more likely to be killed in New Mexico to gun violence.
Blue cities in red states…gangs in those cities … shocking…
If you read it, you’ll actually notice there’s a specifically different flavor of gun violence in both urban and sub urban areas in states with more restrictive gun laws (generally but not always blue states) and states with less restrictive gun laws (generally but not always red states).
The casual gun violence in red states is also very high, road rage, bars, in addition to areas where the crime is already high, like areas with gang violence. The amount of people dying per capita is higher in red states.
When you add in the gang violence from blue cities…yes it is. Just like NYC carries all the violence of NY state, even thou NY state is pretty damn redneck.
You’re not wrong, just maybe purposefully missing the point? Actually, the majority of gun violence is suicides, have to be careful looking at the data to separate violent crime and suicide. But yeah I would agree with you except almost every other City is experiencing drops in crime and gun violence rates, even New York! Places like Florida have 20% increases in violent crime year over year in their largest cities.
https://time.com/6294021/ron-desantis-crime-florida-data/
You see Orlando catching up with Chicago there, that’s wild! So yeah, a lot of that violent crime is gang activity, but gangs use guns more in “blue cities” in “red states” then their “blue state” counterparts. Data is old though and Florida is currently attempting to go through a data collection sea change to match FBI recommendations.
*Need to note, the pandemic crime levels went absolutely insane everywhere, and just about the entire country saw general crime rate increases in the 30-50% range, this is specifically a discussion of gun violence.
So if the cities are blue in both red states and blue states, but the cities in red states have more gun violence, what could possibly be the difference between the two to account for the increase? Could it be that more lenient gun laws lead to more gun violence?
Nope, poverty, most red states do not take care of their poor. With poverty comes deeper rooted gangs and drug problems. Hell look at some of these dumb states saying they won’t take federal money to feed the impoverished children of their state. Guns aren’t our issue, our shit politicians who don’t want to try and help those at the bottom which create 95% of all the violence. Children growing up without anything but gangs and drugs to call home repeat that cycle. Tossing them in jail just furthers it even more. We need to be helping these people, not pushing them further into poverty. A good start would be single payer healthcare, dumping money into the schools and making sure every child is at least taken care of until they are 18 no matter what their parents are doing. This is a cycle we’re letting continue that can be stopped. We just need our politicians to stop being greedy pieces of shit
