“Sorry the cameras malfunctioned and 4 of the guards destroyed the documents then committed suicide. Nothing is to be done here.”
Something something Panama Papers…
I bet that Venn diagram is a circle.
The Panama Papers weren’t swept under a rug, you just didn’t follow news on them.
Also Epstein 100% killed himself, and unsealing this info won’t tell you anything meaningful, because predators who hide among the rich don’t fucking tell every person they meet that they’re a predator.
Conspiracy theories are never a good look on anyone.
I’m not real big on conspiracy theories.
The video being lost around the original attempt is rather suspect, but him finding something to hang himself with again… He should have been in a paper gown in a padded room. We have tons and tons of suicidal people in asylums and jail that are not given an opportunity to hang themselves.
Someone as high profile as him and with a cell mate?
I’m not saying he 100% didn’t kill himself, but It sure as hell looks like somebody went through a lot of trouble to provide him opportunity.
The hidden people on the list that makes this list so inconsequential are the same exact people with the type of reach it would need to make sure he didn’t start naming names.
He doesn’t need to name names, because they have his computers, documents, etc. This conspiracy theory is as full of holes as QAnon shit.
Yeah, no need to answer anything I point out just put your hands over your ears and tell me I’m QANON and full of shit that’ll really make your point and help your position here.
Come to think of it maybe there’s a reason you’re getting all the down votes…
I also responded to your “points”
The downvotes are just “rich people bad” shit, same as ever.
Rich people are bad
Hopping into this conversation to say: that person is right; I’m not downvoting you because “rich people bad”. I’m downvoting you because you aren’t engaging in this discussion to share ideas and understand the other person. Your approach in this discussion is very much one of shutting down thinking that opposes yours. That doesn’t get a dialog going; it ends it. You can do with that as you like, but I thought I’d speak up for myself so you don’t mischaracterize my downvote.
“Conspiracy theories” have ironically enough become weaponized as a thought terminating cliche. Am I supposed to not wonder what about his guards and what they were doing, or the camera feeds, or the people getting paid six figures to handle his case, or the dozens of other loose ends?
There are enormous efforts being taken to gaslight people out of their curiosity about this case.
Epstein 0% killed himself. See? I can assert things with no evidence as well. The whole thing reeks from start to finish and I have no idea how anyone can be completely confident in what happened either way.
I agree with you on the papers (been following that story since it broke), and I’ll agree that I probably would’ve offed myself in his position as well, but there were some pretty unprobable shit happening around his death unless I’ve been misled hard. I mean the guy was on suicide watch, wasn’t he? It’s at the very least suspect as hell that it happened like it did.
there were some pretty unprobable shit happening around his death unless I’ve been misled hard
This is definitely true. But then, 9/11 was pretty improbable too, and was definitely not an inside job.
He was taken off suicide watch shortly before his suicide.
Fair enough, I didn’t know he was taken off suicide watch. Makes one wonder why, though. It’s not like his circumstances changed.
But we’ll likely never know anyway, so I don’t quite understand why you’re getting so much flack for shit that is ultimately academic at this point. Don’t get me wrong, as I think his victims deserve to know as much as possible, but at this point we’re getting into Jimmy Hoffa territory with this shit.
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It doesn’t matter if you’re being truthful. If you’re being a smug dickhead and talking down to people to feed your sense of superiority, I will downvote.
There are enough of those in the fediverse as it is, we don’t need any more incentives.
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What’s your definition of tard?
And deniers of the obvious may continue sucking the CIA’s cock.
But re Gary Webb. You are correct. He totally committed suicide by shooting himself in the head. Twice.
He totally committed suicide by shooting himself in the head. Twice.
This, but unironically. That’s why his wife corroborates it.
Here’s a clue to avoiding conspiracy theories: if it is something you really want to be true because it feels right, it probably isn’t true and is instead spread around by other people with that same feeling.
Most conspiracy theories are bullshit, no doubt. But not all of them are, and it’s pretty hard to judge which might be true by the claims alone, because by nature they are pretty fantastical.
In 1974 before the Church Committee revealed it, you’d have dismissed anyone telling you about MKUltra and I wouldn’t blame you.
But it really did happen.
Did Epstein kill himself? Probably? But the circumstances are definitely eyebrow raising…
But the circumstances are definitely eyebrow raising…
This is pretty much how all conspiracy theories thrive: take something suspicious, put a story into the holes in between the facts we know that confirms what we want to believe is true, and then ignore or ridiculously explain away any evidence that contradicts the hypothesis.
Does logic > feelings?
Better way to say it is that Occam 's Razor slices conspiracy theories to shreds.
To shreds, I say
There are people who collect and document the information from the Epsteins of the world for blackmail. It was how Hoover built the FBI. I am not claiming that Epstein was murdered, but anyone who tries to cash in on the information that Epstein had, would have information that destroys lives. Desperate people do act desperately. I would guess that little ‘conspiracies’ abound, as people try to not be outed; using non-disclosure agreements, for example.
Why this list was ever sealed to begin with is beyond me.
Because powerful people were his associates. I’m surprised it is being unsealed.
Well they needed to clean it first before they unsealed it.
Gotta blur some names so they won’t be prosecuted.
I bet there is some catch. The only thing unsealed will be boring stuff. Oh it turns out a company Bill Clinton owned stock in, back in 1991, did some construction work for a property Epstein owned. It isn’t going to be stuff like “here is a video of Justice Thomas raping a kid”.
Most of the names will be innocent people and victims. All of them will be sent death threats and harassed because people will consider them pedophiles. People can’t understand two things at once (Epstein was a socialite and a child trafficker) and they don’t know what being an associate of Epstein implies. There’s good reasons to keep the list private from the masses.
It’s funny that those people will be threatened, but people we know have been involved in bribery at the highest levels of our government are not.
It must be funny, otherwise where’d all these tears on my cheeks come from!? 😂
Not sure how true this is given:
Anyone who did not successfully fight to keep their name out of the civil case could see their name become public – including Epstein’s victims, co-conspirators and innocent associates.
I imagine anyone who was innocent and an associate had the money to hire the right lawyers to remove themselves.
I also imagine those who should be on it, also won’t be.
I imagine anyone who was innocent and an associate had the money to hire the right lawyers to remove themselves.
Epstein was incredibly well connected, so this statement is dubious at best.
I also imagine those who should be on it, also won’t be.
This is correct. 0% of people “associated” with Epstein have any evidence against them of his crimes, or they’d have been charged as co-conspirators.
And everyone is mystified how groups like the Roman Catholic Church were able to suppress stories of child raise and trafficking for quite literally over a thousand years. Seriously a document was found from before the first crusades talking about it.
The crime doesn’t go to criminal trial because the family is bribed and threatened. Then it is in civil matter and the records get sealed. Priest goes and rapes another kid. Rinse lather repeat.
6th amendment of the US Constitution cuts both ways. People have the right to observe what the government is doing in criminal cases. If the US government is refusing to let the public know what is going on during these procedures the possibility of corruption goes from low to almost certain.
The judge stated some names will be redacted as they were victims. I also doubt someone would interact with Epstein several times and not know. He wasn’t even trying to hide it.
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To protect the privacy of the rich?
Probably more because it’ll tip the ones who actually have cases open on them off.
That’s like 90% of what’s in still classified docs from controversial moments in domestic investigations, information which could show the hand to people currently under investigation, and also techniques the FBI uses in evidence gathering which aren’t known to the wider public and who’s exposure could lead to suspects catching wise and closing the avenue.
If you’ve ever seen one of those get smart posts about how to avoid being identified at a demonstration, Domestic Intelligence is openly trying to avoid more shit being added to those lists of ways to avoid detection. Yes it’s absolutely adversarial to the privacy of the public but it’s a lot less conspiratorial than a blood libel agenda to cover up the child trafficking of the rich.
So, you mean like Ice T. breaking it down ELI5 for the viewers every week?
You mean like when someone smokes crack cocaine?
Or when they bet too much on the ponies?
Or…
Oh, Johnny. I hope you get better, and soon. Don’t start hanging out with that ratfuck Chappelle, either.
Epstein died in 2019. If there’s any open cases it’s because they’re not making any effort to close them.
That’s not how major investigations of entire criminal networks work and if you weren’t trying to make blood libel cool because class consciousness or whatever you’d know better.
Their initial investigation into him lasted 13 months.
Probably because being on a list of names is not proof of any wrongdoing or crime but will most definitely be interpreted as such by people on the internet.
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Until another judge says it will stay sealed.
Why would a judge say that? Like are they defending the corrupt ? Genuinely curious
Anyone who did not successfully fight to keep their name out of the civil case could see their name become public – including Epstein’s victims, co-conspirators and innocent associates.
Well, this tells us that we probably won’t see any notable people in the release then…
“Anyone not powerful, rich or politically-connected enough to scrub their names from the record will be shown.”
This is 100% going to fuck all of the victims and none of the perpetrators.
Uh-oh, we bout to have a dead judge!
It’s sad that every post the top level comments are these low effort posts. I was really hoping posters like you would just stay with reddit.
It’s sad that every thread at some point has these low effort complaints. I was really hoping you would just stop being boring as hell.
I agree with him, though.
Some of you people are reddit-brained beyond repair.
You people? The fuck do you mean you people? Were you born out the arsehole of Christ himself? Get the fuck outta here with your holier than thou self righteousness. This is a free and open public forum. Don’t like it? Fuck off elsewhere. Poop
I rest my case.
You don’t have a “case,” you have an opinion that amounts to no-true-Scotsman. If any of these posts are “Reddit brained,” but yours is somehow not, then “Reddit brained” is an empty concept you fill with whatever you don’t like. Your post, like the ones you’re criticizing, is short, low-effort, unfriendly, critical, and contributes nothing to the discussion. You’re just expressing the opinion that you’re unhappy - and, as far as I can tell, no one asked. If you’re allowed to post your irrelevant, negative opinion, then why aren’t they?
If you don’t like other people, with different motives, interests, and moods, joining your social media platforms, I have bad news.
Although, this is the fediverse - you could make your own server and just defederate every time you’re about to make a post like you did here. The rest of us would be grateful to see less toxicity around here.
Don’t be obtuse, you know exactly what they meant: low effort “quippy,” dare I say it: Whedon-esque comments, that you can predict before even opening the comments.
Okay.
Okay
I agree with him, though. It was much better on Nibiru watching human gladiators fighting Mi-Go in the death pit.
If we can’t joke about serious current events in our nerdy little federated corner of the internet, then what is life even for?
Producing value for the ruling class, idiot.
Dang it, you caught me Lemmying at work again!
At least you’re a useful idiot!
It is those useless idiots that really have a hard go of it.
I guess I just find it sad that low effort infinitely recycled jokes are what make it to the top, when we can actually have a decent discussion about something.
The reason they make it to the top is precisely because they are low-effort and infinitely recycled. Many different users think of them as a response, then see the comment and upvote it because “same”. It’s not that the joke is good or not, it’s that I thought of it and it was already there, so have an upvote.
If you want a decent discussion about something, maybe replying to a low-effort joke response isn’t the way to go about it. The great thing about the Fediverse is that you yourself choose what to interact with and what to ignore. If you are interacting with something you’d rather ignore, maybe that’s something to ponder on a personal level.
My problem is that it just begets more low effort posts; if people see that by making these low level comments, they are going to be rewarded with attention, then it just encourages more of that.
Additionally, on top of that, if people see that putting effort into posting thoughtful responses doesn’t get the same reward, they are less likely to do so.
Ive seen it happen numerous times on reddit where small niche subs were originally very good with mostly high quality conversations and discussions, but eventually those original people got crowded out by the influx of low level posts, and many of the people simple left (it was kind of like how the universe or TrueReddit subs came about).
I get there isn’t much to be done about it, or at least I can’t think of it, but I still think it’s important to bemoan something that is actually bad for high quality discussions.
Dude you’re at a circus crying about all the clowns.
something that is actually bad for high quality discussions
This is purely a matter of opinion, proven by the fact that, not only do I have no issue with a joke comment thrown around in serious posts, I prefer the minor chuckle as a break from the soul-crushing reality that is everyday news.
I’ll, once gain, point to the fact that you are the one choosing to engage these comments. It takes more effort to downvote, and immensely more effort to type out a reply, than it does to just scroll on by. When I walk into my local 7-11 to get down on a Coke-Banana Slurpee and some Takis, I don’t start bitching and moaning about the fake penis enlargement pills and trucker speed I see along the way. I head to what I’m interested in, pay the man, and make like a baby.
The world is full of shit I don’t want to deal with and would rather not see, but I don’t control the rest of the world. Learn how to make peace with that and you’ll be a lot happier.
I’ll, once gain, point to the fact that you are the one choosing to engage these comments.
Already addressed, I think it brings down the level of discussion overall, which you just handwaved away as opinion. But if it’s my opinion, then shouldn’t I speak up? And if you disagree with the reason I’m posting, shouldn’t you take your own advice and simply move on rather than trying to correct me?
I come here for both, and I tend to find both.
I get what you’re saying, and if it’s a matter of the low effort snarky/funny stuff rising to the top because of upvotes, that’s probably a systemic problem. Short quick posts will have more people read them to completion, so that probably makes upvotes more likely.
However, I bet thoughtful comments also get rewarded with further discussion in replies.
, I bet thoughtful comments also get rewarded with further discussion in replies.
If they agree with the general opinion, sure they won’t get buried, but you still have to wade through the shit to get to them.
But if it’s a dissenting opinion, even if it makes logical sense, or even just has the facts straight, it will get buried.
I just miss the days that the internet wasn’t just snarky low effort jokes and memes and you could actually find decent discussions.
They are. In other comments. Some comments are just bad jokes. You can scroll past if they upset you.
God forbid the guy blocks users so he doesn’t see “low effort” comments.
You can do it, that doesn’t mean people have to like it.
Thank you for your thoughtful contribution in furthering this conversation, and your exemplary interpersonal skills.
It’s exactly the kind of cynical doomerism I was looking to get away from
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Literally nothing in between low-effort recycled jokes and academic level discussions. But you’re still right, I should probably create an instance.
I might join you. I know some k8s and shit, if you need a hand admin-ing. Actually since my instance is likely federating with threads, I was looking at pulling my account and donation eventually anyway.
They’ll unseal them but all envelopes contain only an “I Owe You” from Trump, and under his signature he wrote in small font “I declassified them after I took them home”
You know Dems were in that book, too, right?
I don’t think anybody is making this a partisan issue.
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Right, so just a Trump issue, then?
I don’t know how that follows
He’s trying to feel like a victim
How is pointing out the fact that members of both political parties were named as acquaintances of a known pedophile “trying to feel like a victim”? Seeing the Trump comments under every single Epstein post is super hilarious and everything, but I don’t see very many posts about Hillary or Bill. Just trying to make sure they’re all accounted for, not just the guys we already don’t like.
False equivalence. Trump is running for President again, which makes mentioning him relevant in a way that mentioning others is not.
No. You pointed out Bill and so someone responded to kill them all. And you had issue with that. Why? You tried to make it all about Trump to play the victim. Otherwise why would you have a problem will killing bill too.
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Idk why you are pointing this out. Fuck all of them, regardless of politics. If Trump is in there, jail. If Biden is in there, jail.
Because I see comments about Trump under every Epstein, and there were way more politicians than Trump included in that passenger manifest. Is it offensive to you that I pointed that out or something?
The thing is he’s running for president and likes to accuse people of things. It makes sense people are going to look towards him first when shit starts flying around. Dudes into shady stuff, spent decades ripping people off or “getting a good deal” depending on your disposition.
Regardless, let them all burn, let’s find someone competent in the ashes. If someone is corrupt it’s in all our best interests to dump them, regardless of political affiliation, and find someone who believes in more than themselves.
Fair enough, I just wanna make sure they are all held accountable, not just the guys we already dislike. I’m all for Trump facing a firing squad, I just sort of feel like we’ve gotten to a place where those kind of people don’t really feel the same squeeze of justice that us 99%ers do.
Boo hoo, throw the book at them too.
If they’re fucking kids send them all to jail, like they did to Matt Gaetz
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Hope that judge has real good security.
The judge was shot 400 times, a likely suicide.
Please. He fell onto those bullets at the bottom of an ellevator shaft!
I hope that judge is well protected and this isn’t an edited list of people.
January 1 - This is just the emotionally charged distraction. Keep watchful for the event that needs to go under the radar. A change in laws or policy, a new war, or anything that is meant to erode people’s privacy, security or freedom. The US has a history of implementing undesirable changes during holiday periods when there’s little opposition. Possibly something like this;
https://act.eff.org/action/tell-congress-they-must-defeat-hpsci-s-horrific-surveillance-bill
Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is set to expire on December 31, 2023
There goes the entire Republican Party
The goes the government
It will be real interesting to see who files a motion objecting to the unsealing and appeals it to a higher court.
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“What sealed documents?”
At this point it’s a single box with 3 labeled but empty manilla folders, a stack of completely random useless papers, and a spiral bound “2009 workplace ethics” manual.
What a dumb move. All the names? The judge must know that people will not be smart enough to realize being on the list doesn’t mean you’re guilty of any crime. And it’s going to include victims? And people who might have just been included in an email?
I’m all for going after any criminals, but the problem with the outcome of this is that people are stupid and will think that inclusion on the list is the same as guilt. If we are also talking about people who fought successfully to have their names protected, it’s the rich people with means who won’t end up being made public.
If people were generally rational, this would be a good thing. But we’re not, and it seems that all sense is thrown out the window when it comes to Epstein.
This isn’t the “flew on his jet a few times” sort of associates, they were named in Giuffre’s court case.
The documents are part of a settled civil lawsuit alleging Epstein’s one-time paramour Ghislaine Maxwell facilitated the sexual abuse of Virginia Giuffre. Terms of the 2017 settlement were not disclosed.
Low effort version of this post:
Nice try, Andrew.
You read part of the article, found something you think confirms your point (it does not) and then just stopped reading and thinking. Your issue is that you’re trying to be right, rather than trying to figure out what is right.
Also from the article:
Some of the names may simply have been included in depositions, email or legal documents.
And very explicitly
including Epstein’s victims, co-conspirators and innocent associates.
And also
The documents may not make clear why a certain individual became associated with Giuffre’s lawsuit,
As I said, people aren’t rational especially when it comes to Epstein. I appreciate you coming to me and demonstrating this for everyone.
I did read the article, I just I didn’t realise there was any article after all the jump, sorry. Hate it when sites do that.
But I still don’t buy that argument:
Judge Loretta Preska set the release for Jan. 1, giving anyone who objects to their documents becoming public time to object. Her ruling, though, said that since some of the individuals have given media interviews their names should not stay private.
Anyone who was named in those documents knows that they were named in those documents. It is unlikely to include as many innocents as you, or rather that journalist, seem to expect.
So, it’s the articles fault you didn’t read it because of something that happens extremely regularly in articles on the Internet. I’m wrong because of words you put in my mouth (I made no claims as to how many innocents are on the list). And you’re still right based on blind speculation.
It’s like you’re desperate to demonstrate my point for me.
Chill the fuck out.
You act like your first response was respectful and I should have responded in kind.
It’s okay to admit you were just wrong and I made a good point.
I use to say “all extremes call for their opposite”. Since almost no information ever transpires about this whole scandal, the opposite is to release all the names to the public. It was to be expected. If we were trusting the justice system, this would seem inappropriate. But we have what we have, and making the whole list public is the only guarantee we have that not one of the “bad” guy can escape public’s attention. That of course, is valid only if the list is comprehensive and some names have not already been taken out.
It is indeed unfortunate that a lot of people who didn’t deserve and didn’t want any bad attention will get some.
I’m not saying I agree with the move. I’m saying it was to be expected.
[Edit made: grammar & missing words]
making the whole list public is the only guarantee we have that not one of the “bad” guy can escape public’s attention.
Problem is that we don’t know if this is the case. It was noted in the article that some people were able to get their names retracted already and that she is leaving time for other people to plead their case. We all know, and this part of the reason for lack of trust in the legal system, that it favors the rich…so for all I know it’s rich likely guilty people who were able to pay for a lawyer to argue to get themselves removed, while some poor regular joe got caught up in an email for God knows what innocent reason, who is going to get harassed by the mindless mob.
Expected? Maybe. A bad move, almost certainly. People want blood when it comes to Epstein and when that happens rationality takes a back seat.
Saying “people are stupid so we shouldn’t have information” is so anti-humanist. Mob mentality. We have courts, why does public opinion matter? Its actually up to these important people to protect their image if its worth so much - but they don’t, they’re living their lives. Often with even less moral consideration than a regular guy.
And your call to wealth being a shield from danger? Bill gates seems to have lost his marriage over his involvement with Epstein. And that Prince guy in Britain, the rest of the royal family talks shit about him.
You’re really arguing with me that rich people fair better in the legal system?
Well those crimes were ages ago. Who would prosecute them? Yeah, it won’t even go to trial. If they are guilty, which… Like you said, gonna be tough to prove. Rich people absolutely do better at every step of our legal system.
I’m talking about having their names released to the public, which people are going to basically equate to being a child molester, not being convicted of any crimes.
I think theres a good chance people will be more understanding about it. On Epstein’s original flight list, I xan only remember the names of people who visited a LOT. And even then, some of the people who only visited a few times turned out to be child molesters. So we can’t know for sure.
Somehow, as of lately, when people start to talk about rationality it is mostly about some bizarre stuff like bombing datacenters or living in a country that leads an aggressive war because you earn more.
Maybe it’s just a survivor bias and everyone is about bizarre stuff in these times, though
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The guy kept a list of billionaires he was serving minor sex-traffic victims too.
It’d be great if that list were to become public so there could maybe be some justice for the victims and some punishment to deter tomorrow’s billionaire’s from following suit.
It be great it despite the blatant cover-up of Epstein’s murder the list still became public.
It’d be great if those who felt they were above the law and commited heineous crimes found they weren’t above the law.
It’d be great to see the justice system worked
He was also almost certainly an Israeli intelligence asset. I can’t prove it, but there’s a ton of evidence for anyone who wants to look into it. I’m surprised that this is not more widely known.
I think it’s because he represents how rich powerful people live under a different set of rules and are seemingly able to get away with almost anything. Compound that with the right wing obsession with human trafficking that usually leans into conspiracy theories that both exaggerate the real issue and somehow only blames “leftist elites”. They hope the Epstein release will finally prove their wacky theorys correct.
Are “associates” and “customers” considered synonyms in legalese? If not, this list may not be as juicy as people think.
Customers pay, associates are given comps
