Every “great” nation has committed atrocities. There are always evil men, there are always structures of power for them to grab the reins of. That’s true in modern China, it was true in Washington then as it is now, it was true in the USSR and it’s true now in Russia, as it is in the government in Ukraine.
Every body of people also has great and selfless people who rise within those structures, or in opposition to them. Martin Luther King was one, Gandhi was one, Abraham Lincoln was one.
To me, morality assigns on an individual level. It’s not an excuse for any systemic evil or a reason not to fix it. Absolutely we should fix the problems and punish the evildoers as individuals. But refusing to acknowledge the many great things the US has done, because it’s also done great evil, seems unfair to all those people who tried to work for good with whatever time they had.
Well am I supposed to argue with your liberal idealism point by point?
tbh I didn’t feel like it and still don’t, but I’ll say this
“America” is not “Americans”. We just live here.
The reality is America was founded on atrocities and committed atrocities throughout it’s entire existence and is almost certainly going to commit more before I get put into DeSantis’s concentration camps or whatever. Don’t fucking tell me how much you love this demon country when I’m looking down the barrel of fascism.
It’s up to you. I genuinely didn’t come in here aiming to argue with you or tell you you’re not allowed to dislike this country or anything like that.
I do get it, to a certain extent. I’m just saying that there are plenty of people here who are trying to support and protect you. Slavery used to exist, women couldn’t vote, police who killed people used to never go to prison, lots of things used to be true before they changed. You can either support and try to join with the people who are now trying to change things further, or you can leave for a place that really doesn’t have a government and see how that works, or you can get ready for things here to get worse. Maybe way worse, yes; I won’t argue with you there. Complaining and cursing at me on Lemmy won’t affect that outcome though.
All of those things changed because people fought against this country. It had to be dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way, and until there is a fundamental rupture in America that is always going to be the case. I’m certainly not leaving, though! I’m right where I need to be. I just don’t want to be told how great or good or likeable America is. It’s not, and it’s our job to make it so.
These people were also Americans though. They weren’t outsiders. Both bigots and minorities are Americans. We can celebrate the Americans who fought repeatedly to achieve equality while condemning the bigots they had to fight against
America has in-groups and out-groups of “real” Americans and outsiders, and this stems from its legacy as a settler-colonial state; internal colonies of oppressed peoples and settlers that benefit from oppression. We have never achieved equality because this fundamental contradiction within American society persists, because it’s foundational to America’s government.
Of course, but it’s also foundational to America itself, from the very beginning. Over time we’ve even seen waves of immigration go from out group to in group, like the Irish.
I just take the viewpoint that patriotism isn’t blindly supporting your country. I see that as nationalism. To me, patriotism is celebrating strengths and progress, recognizing and condemning our faults, and advocating to fix those faults. It’s looking out for other Americans and fighting for their rights.
Too often, I think we see America for its faults – and there are very many of them – and we forget that there’s another America that’s always tried to fix and address those faults. We can celebrate that as the true American spirit.
Every “great” nation has committed atrocities. There are always evil men, there are always structures of power for them to grab the reins of. That’s true in modern China, it was true in Washington then as it is now, it was true in the USSR and it’s true now in Russia, as it is in the government in Ukraine.
Every body of people also has great and selfless people who rise within those structures, or in opposition to them. Martin Luther King was one, Gandhi was one, Abraham Lincoln was one.
To me, morality assigns on an individual level. It’s not an excuse for any systemic evil or a reason not to fix it. Absolutely we should fix the problems and punish the evildoers as individuals. But refusing to acknowledge the many great things the US has done, because it’s also done great evil, seems unfair to all those people who tried to work for good with whatever time they had.
America should not exist.
Do you know what a thought-terminating cliché is?
Well am I supposed to argue with your liberal idealism point by point?
tbh I didn’t feel like it and still don’t, but I’ll say this
“America” is not “Americans”. We just live here.
The reality is America was founded on atrocities and committed atrocities throughout it’s entire existence and is almost certainly going to commit more before I get put into DeSantis’s concentration camps or whatever. Don’t fucking tell me how much you love this demon country when I’m looking down the barrel of fascism.
It’s up to you. I genuinely didn’t come in here aiming to argue with you or tell you you’re not allowed to dislike this country or anything like that.
I do get it, to a certain extent. I’m just saying that there are plenty of people here who are trying to support and protect you. Slavery used to exist, women couldn’t vote, police who killed people used to never go to prison, lots of things used to be true before they changed. You can either support and try to join with the people who are now trying to change things further, or you can leave for a place that really doesn’t have a government and see how that works, or you can get ready for things here to get worse. Maybe way worse, yes; I won’t argue with you there. Complaining and cursing at me on Lemmy won’t affect that outcome though.
All of those things changed because people fought against this country. It had to be dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way, and until there is a fundamental rupture in America that is always going to be the case. I’m certainly not leaving, though! I’m right where I need to be. I just don’t want to be told how great or good or likeable America is. It’s not, and it’s our job to make it so.
These people were also Americans though. They weren’t outsiders. Both bigots and minorities are Americans. We can celebrate the Americans who fought repeatedly to achieve equality while condemning the bigots they had to fight against
America has in-groups and out-groups of “real” Americans and outsiders, and this stems from its legacy as a settler-colonial state; internal colonies of oppressed peoples and settlers that benefit from oppression. We have never achieved equality because this fundamental contradiction within American society persists, because it’s foundational to America’s government.
Of course, but it’s also foundational to America itself, from the very beginning. Over time we’ve even seen waves of immigration go from out group to in group, like the Irish.
I just take the viewpoint that patriotism isn’t blindly supporting your country. I see that as nationalism. To me, patriotism is celebrating strengths and progress, recognizing and condemning our faults, and advocating to fix those faults. It’s looking out for other Americans and fighting for their rights.
Too often, I think we see America for its faults – and there are very many of them – and we forget that there’s another America that’s always tried to fix and address those faults. We can celebrate that as the true American spirit.