Actually almost all male calves do (in the dairy industry), because they can’t produce milk and it wouldn’t be profitable or financially feasible to keep them alive otherwise
“Male dairy calves are surplus to the requirement of dairy production, and thus, are often sold from the dairy farm in early life. In the United States, male calves are generally sold within days of birth (Shivley et al., 2019) for veal or dairy beef production (Perdue and Hamer, 2017). Raising young male dairy calves for meat, particularly veal, is a contentious issue that has received public scrutiny in the United States (e.g., California Prop 2, 2008) and globally (reviewed by Bolton and von Keyserlingk, 2021).”
annual percentage of bobby calves that become veal = ((annual veal production in millions of pounds * 1000000) / (veal weight of calves in pounds * annual male calves))*100 = 2.728384608147521%
the vast majority of calves are brought to full weight before slaughter
edit:
this user is using this thread to advocate for a position that clearly isn’t supported by the facts, but by the ideology they are evangelizing here. if you want to waste your time watching me waste my time arguing with someone who is not engaging in good faith, this is the thread for you. otherwise it comes down to this: they think dairy is unnecessary and cruel and therefore immoral. any problem i’ve pointed to in their position is glossed over and turned into a personal attack.
I’m sorry but your math doesn’t reflect the reality of most dairy farms. The male calves are indeed mainly killed for veal. And I didn’t say most calves are killed for veal, I said most male calves. Indeed, most female calves are raised to become dairy cows, and some male calves are raised to become beef cows, or bulls used for their semen for artificially inseminating dairy cows, or in some cases for mating.
Overall you might say then that most calves are raised until a few years old for slaughter, either as dairy cows, dairy bulls or beef cattle (keep in mind they can live until 20-25 years), but most male calves are killed as babies for veal.
“Because male cattle cannot produce milk, dairy producers treat these animals as disposable—or “surplus.” Some are sold to be raised for beef, likely on crowded feedlots with up to 150,000 cattle crammed into filthy enclosures. Others—in fact, the majority—will be sold for veal. The remaining calves will be killed shortly after birth.”
My math is based on numbers from the USDA. your sources are narratives from biased organizations. Even they aren’t dishonest enough to not admit that male calves are raised for beef. they prefer to focus on the veal production because they think it’s more horrific but try to pin them down on the actual number of cattle that are brought to full weight before slaughter.
USDA is inherently biased toward animal farming, and the first source I linked was a scientific study. But I’m not necessarily denying what USDA says. Holding a bias doesn’t automatically make something untrue. You didn’t quote anything they said, you made some hasty calculations based on their statistics, which seemed to overlook the distinction between male calves and female calves. You used this to make a statement that I never disagreed with, because I was making a different one. (One could call that a strawman fallacy).
Humane League is an animal welfare organisation. Of course they’re going to focus on the most ethically unsound aspects of animal farming, since that’s their purpose, but nothing they said was false. They did acknowledge that some male calves in the dairy industry are raised for beef, but that most are killed for veal.
Most what? Calves or male calves? Because it’s factually incorrect to say that most male calves aren’t killed for veal. They evidently are.
But let’s ignore that for a second. The fact that any calves in the dairy industry are killed for veal, or even for beef (at only a few years older, still a fraction of their natural lifespan), is of course a harm, whether you agree with it or not. Killing an animal is harming them, no matter if they’re a baby animal or a few-year-old animal.
It’s a harm toward animals that some might justify as a necessary component of dairy production, which it is. But this ignores the fact that dairy production itself isn’t necessary. And that was the crux of the fallacy I’m alluding to.
The fact that any calves in the dairy industry are killed for veal, or even for beef (at only a few years older, still a fraction of their natural lifespan), is of course a harm, whether you agree with it or not. Killing an animal is harming them, no matter if they’re a baby animal or a few-year-old animal.
ok…
It’s a harm toward animals that some might justify as a necessary component of dairy production, which it is. But
no, it’s not.
dairy production itself isn’t necessary. And that was the crux of the fallacy I’m alluding to.
my first comment was acknowledging that it’s just an example.
It’s absolutely necessary to kill cattle for meat in the dairy industry. It would not be financially viable otherwise, and small-scale farms that try to avoid this practice can’t provide enough dairy to feed the human population if they’re consuming dairy; and they still involve other unavoidable cruelties inherent in taking the milk designed for calves, separating them and selectively breeding cows to overproduce milk, docking and debudding them, etc etc.
In some instances or regions, a majority of male dairy calves are indeed destined for veal production. The dairy industry faces challenges in finding economically viable uses for male calves since they don’t produce milk. As a result, many operations choose veal production as a way to utilize these calves.
If we say for sake of example that in some cases, only a small percentage of male calves of dairy cows are used for veal (when largely it is the majority), that’s still billions and eventually trillions of baby animals killed in the long run. Also, many are killed upon birth and not even used for veal but simply discarded or used for other purposes ( https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-dirty-secret-its-still-cheaper-to-kill-male-calves-than-to-rear-them ). The ones that are raised and killed for beef at a few years old still wouldn’t be if the dairy industry wasn’t breeding these animals in the first place. And they wouldn’t be separated from their mothers, be mutilated, or face a number of other cruel practices.
The bottom line is that the dairy industry causes harm and suffering to animals, including supplementing connected industries like veal and beef, which many people justify as a way to minimise waste of necessary byproducts of the dairy industry, while ignoring or overlooking the fact that the dairy industry itself is unnecessary.
That is clearly a logical fallacy, whereby someone justifies harmful actions as a necessary component of an in fact unnecessary larger set of actions. If you would focus on the actual question at hand, instead of making a tirade against the example I used.
By the way, I think it might be called a false necessity or false requirement fallacy, but that may not be widely recognised. It’s related to the more general false dilemma/false dichotomy fallacy I described earlier, but also could be described as a fallacy of composition:
“The fallacy of composition happens when someone assumes that what’s true for parts of something must also be true for the whole thing. Basically, they think that if each piece has a certain quality, then the entire thing automatically has that same quality, which might not be the case.”
In other words, assuming that because one aspect of something is required as a component of that larger thing, the whole thing itself must also be required, when that isn’t necessarily true.
You used this to make a statement that I never disagreed with, because I was making a different one.
I am the one who made the claim about the amount of cattle that become veal. I then supported it when you said that I was wrong. nothing you’ve provided actually contradicts what I have said or the data that I provided.
I think your “veal weight” is off by an order of magnitude. At four days old, when they are sent to the slaughterhouse, they weigh less than 40kg each, which equates to a ballpark of 10kg “veal” per calf.
Actually almost all male calves do (in the dairy industry), because they can’t produce milk and it wouldn’t be profitable or financially feasible to keep them alive otherwise
“Male dairy calves are surplus to the requirement of dairy production, and thus, are often sold from the dairy farm in early life. In the United States, male calves are generally sold within days of birth (Shivley et al., 2019) for veal or dairy beef production (Perdue and Hamer, 2017). Raising young male dairy calves for meat, particularly veal, is a contentious issue that has received public scrutiny in the United States (e.g., California Prop 2, 2008) and globally (reviewed by Bolton and von Keyserlingk, 2021).”
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fanim.2022.1000897/full
Source for number of dairy cows in the usa
Source for annual veal production in the usa
thousands of head of cows = 9448.0
actual cows = 1000 * thousands of head of cows
annual male calves = .5 * actual cows
veal weight of calves in pounds = 450
annual veal production in millions of pounds = 58
annual percentage of bobby calves that become veal = ((annual veal production in millions of pounds * 1000000) / (veal weight of calves in pounds * annual male calves))*100 = 2.728384608147521%
the vast majority of calves are brought to full weight before slaughter
edit:
this user is using this thread to advocate for a position that clearly isn’t supported by the facts, but by the ideology they are evangelizing here. if you want to waste your time watching me waste my time arguing with someone who is not engaging in good faith, this is the thread for you. otherwise it comes down to this: they think dairy is unnecessary and cruel and therefore immoral. any problem i’ve pointed to in their position is glossed over and turned into a personal attack.
I’m sorry but your math doesn’t reflect the reality of most dairy farms. The male calves are indeed mainly killed for veal. And I didn’t say most calves are killed for veal, I said most male calves. Indeed, most female calves are raised to become dairy cows, and some male calves are raised to become beef cows, or bulls used for their semen for artificially inseminating dairy cows, or in some cases for mating.
Overall you might say then that most calves are raised until a few years old for slaughter, either as dairy cows, dairy bulls or beef cattle (keep in mind they can live until 20-25 years), but most male calves are killed as babies for veal.
“Because male cattle cannot produce milk, dairy producers treat these animals as disposable—or “surplus.” Some are sold to be raised for beef, likely on crowded feedlots with up to 150,000 cattle crammed into filthy enclosures. Others—in fact, the majority—will be sold for veal. The remaining calves will be killed shortly after birth.”
https://thehumaneleague.org/article/veal-animal#:~:text=Because male cattle cannot produce,will be sold for veal.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-dirty-secret-its-still-cheaper-to-kill-male-calves-than-to-rear-them
My math is based on numbers from the USDA. your sources are narratives from biased organizations. Even they aren’t dishonest enough to not admit that male calves are raised for beef. they prefer to focus on the veal production because they think it’s more horrific but try to pin them down on the actual number of cattle that are brought to full weight before slaughter.
USDA is inherently biased toward animal farming, and the first source I linked was a scientific study. But I’m not necessarily denying what USDA says. Holding a bias doesn’t automatically make something untrue. You didn’t quote anything they said, you made some hasty calculations based on their statistics, which seemed to overlook the distinction between male calves and female calves. You used this to make a statement that I never disagreed with, because I was making a different one. (One could call that a strawman fallacy).
Humane League is an animal welfare organisation. Of course they’re going to focus on the most ethically unsound aspects of animal farming, since that’s their purpose, but nothing they said was false. They did acknowledge that some male calves in the dairy industry are raised for beef, but that most are killed for veal.
most are not killed for veal
Most what? Calves or male calves? Because it’s factually incorrect to say that most male calves aren’t killed for veal. They evidently are.
But let’s ignore that for a second. The fact that any calves in the dairy industry are killed for veal, or even for beef (at only a few years older, still a fraction of their natural lifespan), is of course a harm, whether you agree with it or not. Killing an animal is harming them, no matter if they’re a baby animal or a few-year-old animal.
It’s a harm toward animals that some might justify as a necessary component of dairy production, which it is. But this ignores the fact that dairy production itself isn’t necessary. And that was the crux of the fallacy I’m alluding to.
ok…
no, it’s not.
my first comment was acknowledging that it’s just an example.
It’s absolutely necessary to kill cattle for meat in the dairy industry. It would not be financially viable otherwise, and small-scale farms that try to avoid this practice can’t provide enough dairy to feed the human population if they’re consuming dairy; and they still involve other unavoidable cruelties inherent in taking the milk designed for calves, separating them and selectively breeding cows to overproduce milk, docking and debudding them, etc etc.
I did the math. there is no way more than 5% of male calves become veal, no matter how much propaganda has been produced to the contrary.
do you need help with the algebra or arithmetic?
In some instances or regions, a majority of male dairy calves are indeed destined for veal production. The dairy industry faces challenges in finding economically viable uses for male calves since they don’t produce milk. As a result, many operations choose veal production as a way to utilize these calves.
If we say for sake of example that in some cases, only a small percentage of male calves of dairy cows are used for veal (when largely it is the majority), that’s still billions and eventually trillions of baby animals killed in the long run. Also, many are killed upon birth and not even used for veal but simply discarded or used for other purposes ( https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-dirty-secret-its-still-cheaper-to-kill-male-calves-than-to-rear-them ). The ones that are raised and killed for beef at a few years old still wouldn’t be if the dairy industry wasn’t breeding these animals in the first place. And they wouldn’t be separated from their mothers, be mutilated, or face a number of other cruel practices.
The bottom line is that the dairy industry causes harm and suffering to animals, including supplementing connected industries like veal and beef, which many people justify as a way to minimise waste of necessary byproducts of the dairy industry, while ignoring or overlooking the fact that the dairy industry itself is unnecessary.
That is clearly a logical fallacy, whereby someone justifies harmful actions as a necessary component of an in fact unnecessary larger set of actions. If you would focus on the actual question at hand, instead of making a tirade against the example I used.
By the way, I think it might be called a false necessity or false requirement fallacy, but that may not be widely recognised. It’s related to the more general false dilemma/false dichotomy fallacy I described earlier, but also could be described as a fallacy of composition:
“The fallacy of composition happens when someone assumes that what’s true for parts of something must also be true for the whole thing. Basically, they think that if each piece has a certain quality, then the entire thing automatically has that same quality, which might not be the case.”
In other words, assuming that because one aspect of something is required as a component of that larger thing, the whole thing itself must also be required, when that isn’t necessarily true.
I am the one who made the claim about the amount of cattle that become veal. I then supported it when you said that I was wrong. nothing you’ve provided actually contradicts what I have said or the data that I provided.
those are raw numbers. your scientific study doesn’t support the claim that you’re making.
I think your “veal weight” is off by an order of magnitude. At four days old, when they are sent to the slaughterhouse, they weigh less than 40kg each, which equates to a ballpark of 10kg “veal” per calf.
I’ve never heard of veal calves being slaughtered at 4 days. that’s when they are sent to a veal farm, to fatten up a bit.
It is the industry standard in NZ. Often times the price isn’t high enough to justify transport costs and they are simply shot instead.
i just want to make sure i understand what you’re saying: veal in new zealand is from 4-day-old calves? is that the story you want to stick with?
450 is the slaughter weight for veal. 3/4 ton for beef. but let’s say it’s 150. it’s still a slim minority of calves.