Reflecting on his presidency, Obama posed the question, “Well, was there something else I could have done?”

Former President Barack Obama cautioned against ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war, warning that “all of us are complicit.”

“If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” he said in an excerpted interview with Pod Save America released Saturday.

    • PetDinosaurs@lemmy.world
      43·
      11 months ago

      Thank you so much.

      This is way more complex than it’s getting credit for.

      It always has been.

      Anyway, I miss having a better leader. He was just so presidential. Not perfect, but no one can be.

        • flicker@kbin.social
          83·
          11 months ago

          They’re trying to do a “gotcha.” What they mean is, “Are even the dead children responsible for the situation they were in?”

          It’s a fallacy; appeal to emotion. Obviously the dead children aren’t reading this, or hearing the words that “all of us are complicit.” Instead of thinking as a rational person would that the audience being addressed by those words are the people to who that phrase would apply, they did a rapid-fire, emotion-based response because they want to feel right and superior, instead of taking the mature, nuanced approach.

      • livus@kbin.social
        26·
        11 months ago

        @roofuskit
        That’s what I thought when I saw the headline but he’s actually talking about state actors when you read the context:

        “All this is taking place against the backdrop of decades of failure to achieve a durable peace for both Israelis and Palestinians, one that is based on genuine security for Israel, a recognition of its right to exist, and a peace that is based on an end of the occupation and the creation of a viable state and self-determination for the Palestinian people,” he added.

      • Lophostemon@aussie.zone
        14·
        11 months ago

        Especially the dead children. They were obviously bad because they chose to get born into the wrong place. Jesus hates them and had them killed for a reason. They should have chosen to get borned into a nice white Christian family in America.

        • some dumbass cracker evangelical, probably.
  • TinyPizza@kbin.social
    84·
    11 months ago

    This is bad news for Israels current course of action. When the guy who was popular (enough that the current guy could “best friend” his coat tails into office) starts saying this stuff loud enough for everyone to hear, it’s intentional. This looks like more subtle public distancing and changing of narrative.

    The former president argued that it was important to acknowledge multiple seemingly contradictory truths: Hamas’ actions were “horrific,” but “the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians” were also “unbearable.”
    Obama previously spoke out on the conflict, saying in a statement that any actions by Israel that ignore the human cost of the war against Hamas “could ultimately backfire.”

    Israel and it’s supporters should be sobered by this soft diplomacy. It’s very much aimed at them and the timing should make it clear that they are being isolated.

    • jimbo@lemmy.world
      31·
      11 months ago

      I don’t see where Obama said anything about things being proportionate, and I don’t know what “proportionate” has to do with the fact that heinous acts have been taken by both sides.

      • coffee_poops@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        21·
        11 months ago

        There’s no “both sides” to this anymore. Almost ten times the people have been killed by Israel with almost all of them being civilians.

        • Serinus@lemmy.world
          31·
          11 months ago

          How many times can you poke a bear before it decides it’s done?

          It’s not an excuse. Israel’s actions are absolutely disproportionate. I can argue either side, but that’s exactly the point. Nobody’s hands are clean. You don’t have to condone Israel’s actions to understand they were provoked.

          There can never be peace without both sides admitting some fault. Two wrongs don’t make a right. 9061 wrongs don’t cancel out 1400 wrongs. That’s not how any of this works.

          What do you suggest Israel does? What do you suggest Palestinians in Gaza do? Until you think a little bit deeper, you can’t just say dismissive, pithy things that only favor one side.

          This isn’t a sports team. You can’t just pick a side and cheer for them no matter what.

        • jimbo@lemmy.world
          19·
          11 months ago

          There’s no “both sides” to this anymore. Almost ten times the people have been killed by Israel with almost all of them being civilians.

          Israel has killed ten times the people compared to who? Oh yeah, the other “side”, who also has killed a bunch of civilians.

          • coffee_poops@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            5·
            11 months ago

            I’m not talking a pro-Hamas position. I’m taking a pro-child position. You don’t give a fuck about people though.

            • trafficnab@lemmy.ca
              9·
              11 months ago

              In a complete shock to everyone, the guy with the tankie name is all for the deaths of innocent civilians

              At least they wear it like a badge of honor, making it easy to identify and ignore them

                • trafficnab@lemmy.ca
                  5·
                  11 months ago

                  We should give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he’s only advocating for the ~25% (2m people or so) of the Israeli civilian population that’s not native born to be killed? Or maybe only the ~500k Israeli civilians who are >75 years old that were alive to see the 1948 war and creation of the state? Maybe some combination of the two? Surely a tankie can’t be advocating for the genocide of an entire nation?

                  Edit: Oh he messaged me instead of replying? Not sure if that was on accident but:

                  settlers aren’t civilians, only settlers think they’re civilians

                  and you are definitely so good at ignoring when you reply to my comment

                  you libs are a joke and a half ill tell ya

                  No no, you misunderstand me, when I say “ignore” I only mean disregard your opinions, there’s no way I’d miss out on pointing and laughing with everyone else at the genocidal tankies, we have to make sure nobody around here thinks it’s an appropriate opinion to have

        • katy ✨
          9·
          11 months ago

          both hamas and the israeli government want war not peace you can’t reason with that

    • S_204@lemmy.worldEnglish
      29·
      11 months ago

      You seem to not understand what a proportionate response in war is. Israel’s goal is extermination of the terrorist threat in Gaza, their actions are proportional for those goals. Not lost in the calculation is the terrorists saying they intend on continuing their terror attacks on civilians, making a ceasefire all but impossible to institute.

      The question of whether or not it’s humane or ethical is a different question that should be debated.

        • S_204@lemmy.worldEnglish
          16·
          11 months ago

          Where did I justify anything? I’m pointing out your ignorance is all.

          Proportional in the context you’re using it doesn’t mean what you think it does.

          You’re probably one of those people who says things like genocide when the population has doubled since 1950, or apartheid when Arabs serve in the IDF, sit as judges in the courts and hold seats in the parliament.

          Tensions are high, spreading disinformation like you are doing is a problem that needs to be called out. Notice I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt assuming you’re just ignorant and not doing this intentionally.

          None of what I’ve said justifies the actions of anyone either. I’m simply pointing out that accuracy is important and you made a mistake.

          • coffee_poops@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            16·
            11 months ago

            You know that they’re are streets in Jerusalem that Palestinians are not even allowed to walk down, right? It’s an apartheid state.

            • S_204@lemmy.worldEnglish
              4·
              11 months ago

              Are those Palestinians is really citizens? There are 2 million Arab Israelis who have access to Israeli society. There are 2 million gazans who aren’t Israeli citizens who don’t want to be Israeli citizens. Therefore, they do not have the same rights as Israeli citizens.

              • spiderplant@lemm.ee
                2·
                11 months ago

                Proportional in the context you’re using it doesn’t mean what you think it does.

                Proportionality is important in international law which is one of the reasons that the UN keeps calling out Israel for war crimes. Another cool fact in international law is that the threat to national security has to be imminent to strike into another country. They can’t just bomb in retaliation and say they are preventing future attacks.

                You’re probably one of those people who says things like genocide when the population has doubled since 1950, or apartheid when Arabs serve in the IDF, sit as judges in the courts and hold seats in the parliament.

                Big Zionist misinformation here, population numbers going up can not disqualify acts from being genocidal. Also black people participated in South African society in the same way but no one would say SA wasn’t an apartheid state because a minority existed in the army or parliament.

        • Serinus@lemmy.world
          9·
          11 months ago

          Watch this My life as a Palestinian fighter - YouTube with a little bit critical of an eye and tell me what you think. This is supposed to be in favor of Palestinians, but what I get out of it is that the mother is proud of the son fighting and dying. What I get out of this is that many Gazans want the fighting to continue, but only when it’s their people fighting Israel. Who do you think put out this video? Do you think Israel is behind it? Or do you think it’s honestly made in favor of Palestine? What’s the purpose of this video and who made it?

        • PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
          5·
          11 months ago

          How do you propose to kill everyone who is Hamas without killing any civilians?

          In war, civilians always die. That’s just reality.

        • S_204@lemmy.worldEnglish
          1·
          11 months ago

          It’s people like you who are why more children will die. The savage thirst for the blood of Jews will lead to countless Palestinians dying.

      • Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works
        2·
        11 months ago

        The only reason a terrorist threat exists at all is that Israel has openly said they are trying to genocide Palestinians. Combined with the last 30 years of Apartheid they’ve already done.

        • aidan@lemmy.worldM
          4·
          11 months ago

          The only reason a terrorist threat exists at all

          How did this recent war start again?

            • aidan@lemmy.worldM
              1·
              11 months ago

              Mhm it’s almost like after 75 years there are generations that have been born on this land, and now are the locals.

              • spiderplant@lemm.ee
                1·
                11 months ago

                So you’re for a 1 state solution with equal rights and a government ran by the majority like south Africa?

                • aidan@lemmy.worldM
                  1·
                  11 months ago

                  So you’re for a 1 state solution with equal rights

                  Sure, or a 10 state solution. Whatever, the number of states doesn’t matter.

                  ran by the majority like south Africa

                  I oppose absolute democracy. I would support a representative state with strong constitutional protections.

    • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
      26·
      11 months ago

      Terrorists consider civilian casualties to be a scorecard. Hamas benefits when there’s Israeli civilian casualties. Hamas also benefits when there’s Palestinian civilian casualties.

      That’s the whole point of taking hostages isn’t it? To force Israel into a ground campaign which will cause Palestinian civilian casualties.

      The military forces of civilized nations don’t consider civilian casualties to be a victory no matter which side it’s on. They have an objective and need to achieve that objective while minimizing civilian casualties. The objective of the IDF is to free the hostages. They will make an effort to minimize civilian casualties. But they must achieve that objective even while know civilian causalities are a certainty even when they make an to keep those casualties to a minimum.

      This is the nature of war. And this is a war Hamas started. And remember there could be significantly fewer casualties (and a humanitarian ceasefire) if Hamas released the hostages.

      But they won’t do that because their objective is to maximize the number of Palestinian casualties because many people look at those casualties and become angry and want to support them.

      Netanyahu will lose power because of 1400 Israeli deaths. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered to be a failure by Israelis.

      Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered a success by Hamas. They are psychopaths that know how people react to these numbers.

    • AMillionNames@sh.itjust.works
      8·
      11 months ago

      But only because they are the ones in power. If the positions of power were reversed, it’d be pretty much the same thing, except Hamas would be the one performing the apartheid and the genocide.

  • dx1@lemmy.world
    67·
    11 months ago

    Honestly, the whole truth of the situation is that the subjugation and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was a direct byproduct/prerequisite of the creation of the Israeli state. We will get nowhere if nobody addresses this fundamental aggravant at the heart of this conflict, that formed the basis for the militarized apartheid system that exists there today. These are just pithy quips about “nobody’s perfect” coming from somebody with olympic swimming pools of blood on his hands.

    The reality’s that the only people with the real vision to create peace in this situation have long been sidelined from the political discussion. I’m really encouraged looking at stuff like https://www.odsi.co/en/ that actually understands the fundamental problems going on here. We’ll get absolutely nowhere listening to the political establishment in the U.S. or Israel that spent most of the last century manufacturing this situation.

  • TimeSquirrel@kbin.social
    66·
    11 months ago

    Funny they never say this kinda shit or act upon it when they have any actual power. Like Eisenhower and his military industrial complex speech.

  • katy ✨
    62·
    11 months ago

    the babies on respirators in gaza hospitals are.

      • meowMix2525@lemm.ee
        14·
        11 months ago

        Even if it was a misfired Palestinian rocket, which still isn’t proven btw, it doesn’t outweigh the 30+ hospitals that Israel has bombed to this day, or for that matter the fucking refugee camp they bombed last week.

        • mwguy@infosec.pub
          12·
          11 months ago

          I mean it does though because of the claim of 500 dead bodies that magically appeared and then (not a joke) dissolved like salt into water once it was clear it was IJ at fault and not the IDF.

          Israel has largely been pinpoint with its strikes and when you compare it’s released maps of Gaza’s tunnel networks from the last war with the BBC’s map of its airstrikes it’s very clear what they’re doing.

        • trafficnab@lemmy.ca
          8·
          11 months ago

          or for that matter the fucking refugee camp they bombed last week

          I was confused by this initially too (I read the headline and imagined a tent city for people fleeing this current war, but then the photo was of a city block with like 5 story buildings) but it’s only called a “refugee camp” because it was originally a site where refugees gathered after the 1948 war, in the modern day it’s more or less an urban neighborhood of Gaza with a population (at one point) of 100,000 just like any other part of the city

      • Lt_Cdr_Data@discuss.tchncs.de
        2·
        11 months ago

        I think hospital bombings on both sides must always be taken with a grain of salt… because if you are in a war and are highly unethical; where is the best place to operate a military base from, if you want to protect it from bombings?

  • kittenzrulz123@lemmy.world
    57·
    11 months ago

    Both sides may have fault however there is a fundamental difference between Israel and Hamas. Hamas is a relatively small terrorist group from a region (Gaza) that has been oppressed and had food, water, and electricity limited (even before the war). Meanwhile Israel has one of the largest militaries and occupies Gaza. The death toll and injuries are not even compatible nor the sheer scale of the war crimes committed by Israel.

    • stevehobbes@lemmy.world
      25·
      11 months ago

      Have you considered that if Gaza didn’t have terrorist groups they might a functioning society and government?

        • stevehobbes@lemmy.world
          19·
          11 months ago

          Well, given that the reason Gaza is occupied is because of the terrorist groups, I think order of operations is somewhat disputed.

          This is 70 years of tit for tat. My point is that both parties here are wrong.

          There is no good or bad guy, just two bad guys.

        • Overzeetop@lemmy.worldEnglish
          9·
          11 months ago

          That’s incorrect. The existence of the terrorist groups are the result of Resolution 181 and the ensuing war that established the modern day boundaries of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza.

          The continued support for these terrorists groups has been bolstered in part by the heavy-handed tactics of Israel and the animosity between Israel and regional powers, but the original sin here was the British (and much of the western world) cowtowing to Zionists to create a theoretical two-state solution from scratch and overlaying it on an existing mixed-background area known as Palestine.

          There are a lot of movie parts here, but the simple enmity between hardline Muslims and hardline Jews predates pretty much everyone currently alive on this planet.

          • jarfil@lemmy.world
            2·
            11 months ago

            Resolution 181 is a red herring.

            There were already Arab vs. Zionist clashes before it, and they would have continued with or without a resolution that nobody was following. Only thing the British can be seen at fault for, is leaving without having enforced 181… which meant leaving Israel alone to fight a war against a coordinated attack from multiple Arab countries at once. Not precisely “cowtowing” to Israel.

            Modern terrorist groups are the result of Israel going against its own Declaration of Independence where it promised to follow 181, and instead trying to get exclusive control of the whole territory… while Palestinians are getting pummeled, but still also refuse to consider a two-state solution, leaving them in an underdog position where all they can do is some terrorist attacks and wait to get destroyed.

      • Arlaerion@lemmy.ml
        7·
        11 months ago

        Maybe if israeli hardliners didn’t support the founding of Hamas and assassinate Rabin they could have reached a peaceful solution almost 20 years ago?

  • Veedem@lemmy.worldEnglish
    37·
    11 months ago

    Well thought out response from someone who knows how to captivate an audience. I miss his leadership even if there were some key flaws during his terms (e.g. the gross overuse of drone strikes).

    Ultimately, no president is perfect but I also believe their ability to be a figure head who can make the public look inward, from time to time, is important.

    Trump did nothing to lead. He just spread anger and hostility. Biden, while he means well, has never been the beet public speaker (both in presence and in avoiding putting his foot in his mouth).

    • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafeEnglish
      16·
      11 months ago

      I’d rather have an effective leader than a charismatic one. I don’t elect presidents to assuage my fee-fees, and the fact that the rest of the population does is the problem.

      • Salamendacious@lemmy.worldOP
        17·
        11 months ago

        It’s unfortunate but charisma is a very important component in contemporary American politics. I think that’s largely the reason Hillary lost the election. Trump is not as qualified as she was but he is much more charismatic. I think it’s because people don’t care enough to do stay informed and research candidates. So they make emotional decisions based on the stupidest criteria. The biggest example is one of the factors that got George W elected/reelected, “I’d rather have a beer with him than the other guy” .

        • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafeEnglish
          1·
          11 months ago

          That needs to change and adults who refuse to need to have their ability to vote taken away from them.

          Most adults simply aren’t qualified to run a democracy and we can’t continue destroying everything to dumb it down for them to appease them. I probably count among their number and if those depraved assholes couldn’t vote anymore, I’d accept not being able to vote anymore, too.

          Find someone like John Kerry and make him king. Have an AI do it. Force people to submit to extensive psychological and IQ testing throughout their lives if they want to vote. There’s a way to do it fairly. Ignorant assholes might not think it’s fair, but their opinions can’t matter anymore if we’re to escape tyranny and have happy meaningful lives.

          We are capable of reason and overcoming our emotions. We can’t just submit to the will of those who refuse to. They’re no more powerful than you or I.

          • Salamendacious@lemmy.worldOP
            6·
            11 months ago

            The core of a democracy is that people get to choose their own leaders. Even though I agree with you that I wish people took voting more seriously. I don’t think people should lose their right to vote because I disagree with their decision making process. If you want to flip a coin or roll dice or whatever as long as it’s your own choice then you can vote for whomever you want. Even if I utterly disagree with that process. That’s what a right is. It’s innately a part of you. Unless you commit a felony per Richardson v. Ramirez

            • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafeEnglish
              1·
              11 months ago

              Well, people openly choosing emotions over rationality at the cost of everything they hold dear and bringing untold harm to everyone else around them, including genocide, isn’t “disagreeing with their decision making process”. It’s a credible accusation of wrongdoing.

              Because what’s even more innate than your rights are you responsibilities, and that means you have to put rationality and what’s best for your community above whoever makes you feel the best when you interact with them or when you watch them speak. We’re supposed to run the most powerful nation in the world, one with nuclear weapons, and that means our responsibilities trump our rights and petty desires.

              That’s what being an adult means.

              And if people refuse to do so, then they shouldn’t have that power and influence over politics.

              The truth is there’s nothing innate about voting, humans are not like other animals like bees that can have stable democratic societies (if you want to call beehives that), we’re too selfish and cruel for that, but we also evolved with the capability to overcome those animalistic tendencies. And if we want to survive and have the kind of life we want, we have to be willing to do so no matter how shitty it makes us feel.

              We can’t afford to just be animals anymore. We’re literally destroying the planet. Too much hangs in the balance and if you continue to defend people putting their feelings before facts simply because you feel the same way, no surface life will exist aside from some bacteria and a few pestilence bugs and we have to work for more than that.

  • spudwart@spudwart.comEnglish
    23·
    11 months ago

    “It’s complicated” is no excuse to be arming an already powerful nation with our tax dollars to make the situation more “complicated.”

    If it’s so damn complicated, maybe we shouldn’t be sending arms and tax dollars directly over to Israel, but rather send humanitarian aid to both sides instead.

    Taking a side in a complicated conflict of which many people don’t fully understand is an unwise decision, and using tax dollars to arm one or even both sides of a conflict we don’t fully understand is unethical.

    • bonus_crab@lemmy.world
      11·
      11 months ago

      Its their job to understand it, and they do. what they understand is that while supporting israel has a monetary cost , it secures our trade routes, which egypt has tried to close purely because ‘fuck you’ through the Mediterranean and puts pressure on the rest of the middle east to support the petrol dollar.

      If the arab countries were remotely as friendly as israel, itd diminish their value as an ally potentially to the extent that we wouldnt have to overlook the atrocities they commit. The reality is that ISIS and Hezbollah and Hamas are 100x worse. Ad soon as Iran gets nukes, theyre going to become another north korea, potentially a catalyst for WW3, and we need an ally in the region as leverage to prevent that.

      What this latest conflict has shown is that they will absolutely make suicidally stupid attacks that will result in massive casualties to their own people, so long as it advances their goal of genociding jews and anyone else thats not an arab.

      Say what you want about israel, but theyve been on the brink of kicking netanyahu and his racist ass out of office for years. Hes in a very similar situation legally to Trump. Hamas’s attack has virtually ensured that won’t happen now , as the nation enters a state of emergency, and theyve proved his fear mongering true.

    • Dran@lemmy.world
      12·
      11 months ago

      We (the US) are the weapon’s manufacturers and we (the US) sell them the weapons.

      We do it because if we didn’t, Russia and China would effectively conquer the middle east, and they’d allow a lot worse things to happen as long as raw materials, oil, and cheap labour kept flowing back in their favor.

      It’s a complex subject any way you slice it because it’s possible inaction has worse consequences than complicity.

    • Reptorian@lemmy.zipEnglish
      1·
      11 months ago

      If they want to support Israel, I’m fine with humanitarian support toward Israel at best. And Gaza as well. I can’t think of a single country in Middle East that needs military support, and I can’t think of a good organization in Middle East that one should get behind. Best I can think of is the PLO.

  • masquenox@lemmy.world
    15·
    11 months ago

    ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war,

    What “complexities”? There is absolutely nothing “complex” about white supremacist settler-colonialism. End of story.

    What “Israel-Hamas war”? Israel has been waging war on Palestinians since 1949 - long before Hames existed.

    Fuck Barack “No We Can’t!” Obama and his lib blame-shifting bullshittery.

      • masquenox@lemmy.world
        12·
        11 months ago

        Which part of…

        lib blame-shifting bullshittery

        …didn’t you get the first time around?

        Do tell… do you hide behind this (alleged) “complexity” when the subject of Apartheid-South Africa comes up? Or the Antebellum South, perhaps?

          • masquenox@lemmy.world
            4·
            11 months ago

            Oh, look… a liberal is upset that their vaunted “enlightened centrism” turned out to be nothing more than camouflaged right-wing ideology with a smiley face.

            Do what all right-wingers do when exposed - snort copium and run for the next big lie, okay?

    • jimbo@lemmy.world
      7·
      11 months ago

      There is absolutely nothing “complex” about white supremacist settler-colonialism. End of story.

      It’s a rarity to see someone with their head so far up their own ass as to say something like that and be completely serious.

      • masquenox@lemmy.world
        6·
        11 months ago

        Oh look… more people hiding their support for white supremacist settler-colonialism behind (alleged) “complexities.”

        I’d say that if you are finding it difficult to see someone with their head up their own ass you should try shoving a mirror where the sun don’t shine - it’s not going to work for you any other way.

  • thecrotch@sh.itjust.works
    14·
    11 months ago

    Wow Barack “double Bush’s drone strikes, kill 12,000 Afghani civilians, and bomb a Doctor’s Without Boarders hospital” Obama wants to show restraint now that he’s no longer in a position to stop the bloodshed…