Too many people are confusing the two. Whenever lemmy.ml or its devs do something stupid, people go “Lemmy is getting worse and worse,” or “I’m leaving Lemmy,” or worse, “I’m leaving for Beehaw.”
If you’re using Beehaw, then you’re using Lemmy. Lemmy is the software these instances run on. If you don’t like lemmy.ml, join another instances that have rules that match your philosophy. Some instance hosts authoritarian or fascist shit? Turn to another Lemmy instance. Lemmy.ml is not even the biggest instance. People who just joined and are unfamiliar with the platform will just think the entire Lemmyverse is run by autocratic admins if we don’t get our terminology right.
If you really care that much about “Authoritarians” and “Tankies”, maybe you should just move to exploding-heads.
I, for one, fully support the explicitly antifascist politics of the core maintainers
Agreed. There is too much false equivalence of “Tankies” and fascists.
Fascists want to enslave your sisters and daughters and stick your trans friends in psych wards until they “decide” to stop being trans. They’re fine with Blacks wallowing in poverty as second-class citizens and having militarized police on every streetcorner.
“Tankies” (Marxist-Leninists) believe in all the same progressive things other (so-called) Socialists do but have different views on historical figures and foreign policy, something that does not matter a bit in the here and now.
Here is the difference between Fascists and “Tankies”: if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that China was trying to exterminate the Ughyr people through mass execution, 95% of the “Tankies” out there, myself included, would disown China and denounce the genocide (this will not happen, because it isn’t a genocide except in the broadest and most meaningless of terms). If it was proven beyond a doubt that the Holocaust happened (which it more or less has), the majority of Neo-Nazis would still say it was good.
Saying you’d denounce a genocide you deny is happening isn’t accomplishing what you think it is.
People don’t equate “tankies” with “fascists” because you advocate some sort of marxist-inspired system of governance… it’s because denying the suffering of others when it’s politically convenient is absolutely the opening strategy of the fascist playbook.
Also, “Disown China”??? Nothing wrong with liking other countries but the way you guys talk about them is off putting and doesn’t come across as informed or even remotely unbiased.
Being “unbiased” is not a virtue. I am a Marxist. I judge people, governments, and ideas based off of a Marxist framework. That is my bias.
I give China the benefit of the doubt because they are, at least, claiming to be a Marxist state. This on its own puts them above any non-Marxist state.
Why? I am a socialist democrat and don’t would never support North Korea just because they claim to be a democracy. China is an authoritarian state that does nothing to support socialist ideals.
This is a spectacularly stupid assertion. Like, we’re talking trumpian levels of idiocy here. Y’all tankies really want to make horseshoe theory a thing.
Neither is being biased a sin. It’s when your bias allows you to ignore facts that people stop taking you seriously.
The communist party has engaged in a huge crackdown on labor unions and workers rights in the last 10 years. Words are just words.
Agree completely with this take. ‘Tankie’ is just ‘woke’ for libs. They don’t want dialogue over ideas that threaten their worldview (or profits!)
Based and materialist take
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stay mad, nerd
That phrase stuck out for me too, and supports my growing suspicion that the majority of people that claim to be marxists are actually just another group of fascist conspiracy theorists. I hope to be proven wrong.
You could literally prove yourself wrong by exercising just a little intellectual curiosity. Marxism is, at its core, an economic theory based on the idea that democracy has as much a place in the workplace and economy as it does in our political system. If that’s fascist to you, you’re unserious.
Now, if you’re just unwilling to correct or criticize your own beliefs, and you want to conflate Marxism with Stalinism and Tankies, you’re better off just saying so.
Ughyrs are being genocided rn, but otherwise your points are correct
I joined Lemmy a while ago and I suddenly got exposed to many “tankie” debates going on. Is there a reason this group suddenly became relevant on Lemmy (I mean, from the view of a Reddit migrant)?
Because thanks to the federated setup we get exposed to a wider range of ideas. There are people who are actually socialist or communist and support countries like Cuba and see what China is trying to do with communism there and offer different perspectives. Western media is flooded with anti China propaganda because the capitalists just can’t compete with a state run economy. So the word ‘tankie’ is what capitalists or liberals use to shut down Marxist dialogue over these countries. It’s basically used the way MAGA idiots use ‘woke’. The meaning is ambiguous and the point is to stop ‘bad ideas’ from being discussed.
I use “tankie” to refer to the type of people that claim to be Marxist but are actually just anti-West, like the ones that support Russia’s love of genocide simply because Russia is opposing the western world. I’d love to have conversations with actual Marxists, I’ve just become increasingly less sure that they exist.
I don’t know any Marxists that support ‘Russias love of genocide’. That’s crazy. I do know people that question the narrative of the proxy war in Ukraine and are critical of NATO since Yugoslavia and Libya were destroyed by NATO. But nobody supports Putin’s war. They understand it was in reaction to Nazi activity in Donbass and threats of NATO staging advanced missile tech in Ukraine, but mention this and you get labeled ‘tankie’ and see your comments deleted…
Read the comment you’re replying to carefully. He’s not referring to Marxists. He’s referring to pro Russian warmongers / anti wests trolls that wrap themselves in Marxism flag.
Sure, but the thing is if you say anything about the context of the war in Ukraine that doesn’t toe the G7 party line, you get called a Tankie and your comments get deleted. On Lemmy grad I haven’t seen a single post saying they are "pro Russian’ or 'support genocide in Russia ’ but we get labeled as having those opinions. It’s a strawman argument. And it’s used by liberals and capitalists to shut down actual dialogue.
That’s because that’s just Russian propaganda used to justify doing imperialism and conquering Ukraine.
If Russia wanted to ‘conquor’ Ukraine they would have done what the US did to Iraq: shock and awe, destroy Kiev’s water electric and sewage infrastructure etc…Talking about the historical context of the conflict is not propaganda. But there is definitely a ton of propaganda coming from western countries though. Just like before the Iraq war, everyone believed WMD. The propaganda machine in the west is amazeballs.
Wonderful revisionist history you have there. Russia blindly believed they could roll over Ukraine and seize the country in threeweeks, (Russia’s words not mine). They didn’t do a “shock and awe” destruction raid at first because they wanted to steal the land in tact and re-add it to the Russian “empire” that Putlin wants to rebuild. Putin knows he doesn’t have much time left and he wants to rebuild the glorious USSR before he dies. He has made moves towards that for the last 10 years. So far his only real success is the puppet state of Belarus. If it was really about Nazi’s this was the stupidest police action in modern history.
Lmao which proxy war? It’s Russia committing to a full scale invasion of Ukraine and losing. That’s like calling WW2 a proxy war because the soviet union received critical amounts of US aid.
That’s interenting that you don’t recognize this as a proxy war. Even Blinken admits that… Make no mistake, the US knew Russia would invade if they moved forward with NATO. They wanted it to happen. Look who wins. US natural gas sales to Germany at twice the cost, pipeline blown up, Lockheed and Raytheon stock through the roof. But these my friend are facts you will quickly disavow because the propaganda machine so powerful. Just ask yourself cui bono in all of these conflicts that’s the key.
Ngl you’re going to probably isolate yourself from Marxists by using the label “tankie” since they typically see it as a label used by liberals to put down revolutionary leftists. I can’t speak for all Marxists/ml’s but that’s what I’ve noticed
OMG Chick-fil-A becoming “woke” was the highlight of the week. 🤣
China is not communist, it’s an authoritarian state doing state capitalism and performing ethnic cleansing/genocide. It’s quite far removed from the ideals of communism.
It’s kind of both. I think of it more like a hybrid car. It has capitalism and foreign companies love it, but it also has a very strong communist base, the state controls production and distribution, the local communities vote for the local government. I think there may be a gap in your understanding about how their government is set up… but I’m sure we can have a rational dialogue about this issue right?
This is a good comparison because I also oppose car-dependant infrastructure and think we would be better off with more public transports and an infrastructure closer to the people in general.
I suppose I don’t get why someone who claim to be communist would adhere in any way to capitalism knowing full well how much harm capitalism bought about.
But then I’m an anarchist so it’s not that surprising to me that a state would perpetuate oppressing power structures such as Capitalism or Police forces.
Tankie is a term coined by dissident socialists and communists to refer to authoritarian Stalinist/Maoist leftists who are hostile to libertarian or democratic leftist movements, or any other kind of democratic movement. Comparing it with “woke” (which has no well-defined meaning) is ridiculous.
The people who are labeled tankies are very much anti-democratic. Them being leftist or communist is actually not an issue at all. The problem is they either 1) Attempt to gaslight about authoritarian regimes (for example by claiming said regimes are not authoritarian, that their “elections” are real, or that everything is western propaganda), or 2) Unabashedly support these regimes, sometimes claiming that their victims “deserved” it.
Tankie was recouperated from dissident socialists, the way it’s used today has very little to do with its origin. Just because something starts out as a politically radical idea doesn’t mean it can’t get twisted in bourgeois society. It’s mostly just used as a smear to mean “communist I don’t like”
It’s like woke - what started as a term used by BLM to criticize oppression of minorities was recouperated and now it’s been turned into a right-wing smear and lost all meaning.
No, not at all. It simply means “Communist who supports oppression & authoritarianism”. European socialists, especially eastern Europeans, still use it in this exact same meaning to this day. The non-bourgeois workers & trade unionists who were subjected to decades of oppression under various Stalinist regimes also use it.
The entire argument is pointless and trite anyway. Most of the people in this thread taking offence at the term “tankie” do in fact support authoritarianism and are attempting to gaslight readers about it.
“support”
You keep using this word, but do you really think any of the people you call tankies have actually done anything to support these countries? Or, more likely, are you using “support” to mean “refuse to condemn/disavow”?
Well, count me in to that group.
I will not join the imperialist dogpile against China. My opinions about their government is irrelevant at best, and at worst by joining in the echo chamber of “China Bad!” then I am helping America pave the way for a war it so obviously wants.
If you want to call that support, then I have to ask why supposed “socialists” are joining America in attacking China!
I couldn’t care less if tankies “only” refused to condemn China/Russia/DPRK or whatever oppressive regime they think is anti-imperialist – indeed, I wouldn’t even describe this group as tankies. The cold-war “tankies” weren’t passive or neutral either.
The tankies you see here, even in this thread, actively dehumanize and gaslight people resisting these regimes, and attempt to delegitimize any act of resistance against them, even if indigenous. These are the kind of people who would smear actual leftist activists in Russia, China or Iran as “CIA Agents” in the hope that said regimes continue existing, to take revenge against the US. This worldview espouses that nobody has any agency except the US (and its authoritarian adversaries), because every opponent of these regimes has to be agent of the US.
Refusing to condemn something isn’t the same as lending support. Gaslighting people about the Tianamen Massacre, about the treatment of Uighurs, or about creeping authoritarianism in HK is, however, definitely a form of support.
Socialists who oppose the CCP tend to do that for entirely different reasons than the US. Not that there is much socialism to support there. Labour rights and protections under the CCP are inferior to the average European country, with the rampant 996 culture and very few instances of collective labor action, which is seen as undesirable and suppressed by the party.
As the saying goes, you can’t be neutral on a moving train.
By refusing to condemn China, I must therefore support it. That’s how it works. You can’t just be a third positionist about this and say “I oppose everybody with my own special snowflake socialism!”