As admins, we removed the scat communities, thinking that scat was covered by the NSFL. However, some people have opposing views on this matter. What do you think about it? If people want it allowed, then we can restore content.
https://strawpoll.com/wby5Ae7PXyA
Edit: My answer for friends in the comments; The main reason NSFL was banned is because we currently don’t have the tools to separate porn from NSFL. I’m in favor of the ban because I think its the same way in scat. If we had enough tools right now, we wouldn’t be ban the NSFL either. Although, I agree that voting for niche fetishes doesn’t make sense.
Edit 2: Also I don’t want to think about shit anymore. I’m out 😀 https://lemmynsfw.com/post/117500
Definitely not a fan of scat, and I definitely don’t want to see it on my feed, but I feel like it’s my job as a user to block the stuff I want to avoid. If you guys want to implement a “NSFW+” feature that we can use to mass-block the content that goes past the normal NSFW limits, great, but I don’t think it should be banned just because some people really don’t like it.
I feel like it’s my job as a user to block the stuff I want to avoid
AGREE 100%
I don’t consume this sort of content, but in general, I don’t think “democracy” is the best way to judge niche fetishes. Decades ago, the majority would have voted to exclude gay porn. I personally enjoy hotwife and cuckold content. I’ve been pushed out of communities where the thought of ones partner sleeping with someone else makes a lot of people uncomfortable. When I see the community voting for or against fetishes it makes me uncomfortable, because I wonder when one of my kinks is next.
Voting on content inclusion or inclusion will lead to a tyranny of the majority. Kink acceptance should not be a popularity contest. Instead we should seek a principles based approach that embraces inclusion and tolerance while still staying within the bounds of the law. At the same time we should encourage the lemmy devs to build features that allow users to avoid content they don’t want to see so that we don’t need a heavy handed top level approach.
kinda surprising to see voting is leaning towards ban. if scat won’t be on lemmynsfw, where else is it supposed to be in?
Block the community if you don’t like the fetish, but banning scat makes no sense to me.
if scat won’t be on lemmynsfw, where else is it supposed to be in?
Another instance.
The way Lemmy works, anyone can create another NSFW instance that does allow it if they really feel so inclined.
Sure and people will ask for ban from there as well, my point was a nsfw community being on nsfw instance makes sense to me.
If people ask for a ban there as well, the admin of that instance can direct them to here. That way, that instance can remain… well, full of shit.
Actually that is not really how Lemmy works. As long as at least one user from here subscribes to a community from there the community is right back in All here. And if no user is allowed to subscribe to something there you don’t really gain anything from federation.
My favorite instance admin for a reason.
It’s not everyone’s cup of tea or even most people’s, but neither are dicks for most browsing this instance, some still want those around and it’s more than understandable, I don’t like em, someone is super excited about it though. They probably aren’t into titties, I like titties. Id be shitty if they tried to ban titties.
Unless it’s illegal or genuinely traumatic seems dumb to ban it, especially considering the first big announcement he made was legally dubious in some areas.
Personally I’d recommend replacing scat with titties or ass and vote thinking if that was on the chopping block. this isn’t a do you like question, this is a purge question. lemmynsfwspecialkinks seems wayyyy too long for an instance name imo let’s stop this train before it starts and someone gotta make that instance.
What’s the issue with scat porn?
Is it illegal or something?
If it’s not illegal then on what grounds is it being banned?
Exactly
I’m not in favor of banning things that aren’t illegal (or illegal adjacent like loli). It would be awesome to be able to automatically filter things like scat, but outright banning it in my mind sends the message that this instance is not friendly to niche communities.
There are a lot of niche communities on here, anal, pregnant, trans, tiny tits, milf, gay. Anyone could find these offensive. If this instance isn’t friendly to scat, it shouldn’t be friendly to those communities.
Ban fetishes that are illegal or hurt people. Otherwise, let people filter them. That’s my two cents.
Admin over at Yiffit here.
We have a temporary ban on content that is perfectly legal but which could be really weird to remote admins and moderators for at least 2 months in hopes that better moderation tools will appear so that remote instances can hide certain content without having to defederate from us completely.
Couple of questions and I mean this out of ignorance, not hate…
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Yiff is like being/dreaming of furries right?
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That seems legal but “really weird” so what kind of stuff are you banning?
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I’m learning programming so don’t expect anything great or even good out of me, but what kind of moderation tools are you looking for? Specific features you want?
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If it’s property marked as NSFW and it’s not illegal i don’t understand why banning it…
To avoid defederation, I guess
Fuck defederation if the NSFW content rock here everyone will want to join here.
I see no legitimate justification for straight banning it tbh.
Removed by mod
It was under its own community, they just banned that community
VPN Votes not allowed.
My vote is that we ban it here. I think the best solution for these issues is to have at least two NSFW instances. One that’s more tightly moderated and more socially acceptable, and a second that’s run with a more Libertarian wildboi flair. Business up front, party in the back. Maybe call the other one something like LemmyTrueNSFW, or LemmyWildNSFW, or something like that. This is how Federation achieves censorship-resistance. It allows a space for those on the fringe, while preventing the fringe from overwhelming the normie majority.
I like this option, I agree that while It’s not something I’m into I feel like we should not kink shame those who are. Creating a second instance for the more taboo things allows for it to exist but we still won’t see it while browsing ‘All’ in lemmynsfw. But it’s there for those who want to subscribe to it.
Actually it would still show up in All as long as at least one user on this instance is subscribed to a community on the other one. Just not in Local.
This is a good take, I agree, that way there is much more freedom without constant internal conflict and debate. That’s why I voted no one this one, mostly because I think it’d be better for another instance other than this one, not because I think it should be outright completely banned from lemmy entirely.
This is a very good idea tbh.
I guess I have a couple of those, from time to time. Damned if I know when one is coming, though.
A business front instance and a pro bono back there.
I definitely don’t want to browse this server (lemmy@nsfw) and come across scat in my timeline. I support banning it. People that enjoy it can set up their own server for it, and server admins can choose to federate or defederate to it.
I’m seeing a lot of discussion here and just want to chip in and lay down my argument for scat.
Banning it is really not okay. Unlike gore which clearly has significant ethical issues, scat causes no harm and is simply disliked by many people. Scat is already banned in many places of discussion, meaning that people in this fetish are forced to gather in places where actual child porn and bestiality is, because they literally have no other choice.
Please throw us a lifeline. Don’t make us go to a scummy instance full of creeps and actual pedophiles.
I really love this community, and I want to stay a part of it with you all! Let us have our safe haven, there aren’t many places out there like this ❤
scat causes no harm
hepatitis A, hepatitis E, cholera, adenovirus, and E. coli would like your location.
Tell me which of these can’t also happen with perfectly normal vanilla sex?
hep E, cholera, E. coli.
because they literally have no other choice.
That’s not true, though. They do have a choice. They can always start their own instance, with their own standards of decency. That’s the beauty of decentralization; you can just circumvent authority.
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It’s not reasonable or practical to tell someone to ‘go and make your own instance’.
It’s even less reasonable to tell someone to give up control of their instance in order to meet your desires. You aren’t the one running this place, so you don’t get to make the rules. The beauty of decentralization is that it’s far more reasonable to tell someone to create their own Lemmy instance than it is to tell them to create their own Reddit.
Are you actually aware of the costs and difficulties in hosting alone, let alone management?
Yes, actually. I was involved in the discussions on this very topic on Pluspora, a Diaspora pod that was created as a temporary lifeboat for Google+ refugees. The cost per user for even a small fediverse server is less than $2/year, and that number gets smaller as the userbase grows. the userbase can cover that cost via GoFundMe donations or Patreon contributions, just as they do on this instance.
It’s not a viable solution for most, let alone a relatively small niche that fits into a community or two.
Short of taking control over someone else’s instance, it’s the most viable solution available. There’s no easier way to start your own online social group than with open source decentralized social media. If you can’t be bothered to do that, then abide by the social contract of the instance you’re on, because it’s not yours.
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$2 per user is very expensive!
It’s only the cost of a cup of coffee. Your users can afford it, easily.
In any case, your argument seems to hinge on ‘the instance isn’t yours, so don’t try and change the rules’.
My argument is that if you don’t like the rules of this clubhouse, decentralization allows you to go start your own clubhouse, with your own rules.
If you like being lead around on a leash, why aren’t you hanging out on Spez’s Reddit?
I’m not being lead around on a leash. I’m not the one who has an issue with banning poopoo from one instance.
The admins here have chosen to be mature and democratic, and listen to the requests of their community. That’s why they opened this vote and are seeing it out; they’re good people.
And my vote says no. Most votes say no.
The bar for entry to create, manage, and gain traction for an instance is still high no matter how you look at it.
Bullshit. There’s already 824 different instances. There’s no reason there can’t be a 825th instance. The only bar that’s lower is the bar to coup an established instance.
As a result they’ve decided to at least take another look before throwing a niche part of their community into the grinder.
Even if they didn’t, they’re not under any obligation to cater to that niche. There’s no reason the niche needs to be a part of that community. It can just as easily be a part of another community. The admin team of LemmyNSFW cannot stop you from sharing poopoo on Lemmy, not even with an authoritarian ban. It’s trivial to circumvent their authority, with your own instance.
Democracy is never a bad thing ❤
Completely agreed. More reason to start your own instance, with your own voice, rather than drowning out someone else’s voice on their instance.
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you side-stepped, re-worded, ignored, or outright lied in answer to my points.
No, I did not.
I think you’re trolling,
I’m not.
but if you’re not then please consider being more respectful in the future.
Cut the bullshit, maybe you can earn my respect.
Kinda confused why there’s a vote on this tbh. Just block the community if you don’t like it? That’s kinda on the end user.
Like, Imma be real, I probably have the biggest community block list of any user on the instance, but that’s mainly because I’m ace and here for the lewd stuff rather than the sexually explicit stuff. I know I’m not the target demographic of this instance overall, but if there’s an option for people to filter the content out they should use it.
Lmao same. I’m blocking this community now because I’m not here for debate :D
I’m disappointed to see that voting is leaning towards a ban. I’m not remotely interested in scat, but it isn’t a big deal to block those communities, as I was doing before they were shut down.
I guess someone could make lemmyscat.com, targeting both the kink and Lemmy users with feline pets.
50/50 ripoff and with much larger difference.
This sets a very dangerous precedent. Banning any legal consenting type of nsfw material leads this instance down the road to pure vanilla “gonewild”.
Slippery Slope Fallacy.
It’s only a fallicy if it doesn’t happen, and in this case I think there is a clear path to this.
It’s only a fallicy if it doesn’t happen
But it hasn’t happened yet. You just state that it will, with no evidence to support that.
and in this case I think there is a clear path to this.
Then support your assertion. What do you base this claim on?
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The basis of the argument to ban seems to be that user do not want this in their instance feeds (and without more mod/admin tools this can happen).
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The path to other communities facing a popular vote ban is that if a precedent is set here for how we deal with this, and the ban is successful, it’s an effective way of solving the issue (1).
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Once we have an effect way of removing communities, it can be used again. To say it will never be used again is unrealistic.
What I’d suggest instead is a clear set of rules on what is acceptable, without targeting specific communities which the general userbase may find unappealing.
Once we have an effect way of removing communities, it can be used again. To say it will never be used again is unrealistic.
You’re just restating the Slippery Slope Fallacy, here.
Eh idk. The segmant you quoted says basically “if it happened once it could happen again”, which really isn’t a Slippery Slope Fallacy.
A Slippery Slipe Fallacy says that one thing could lead to something else which could lead to even more something else. That isn’t a good argument, but to say that one thing could lead to the same thing again is a valid argument and self evident if you see that certain factors lead to that one thing, so those same factors would lead to it again.
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Likewise.
Edit - actually, no. I was not arguing that the fallacy made the conclusion false. I’m arguing that the fallacy made the conclusion unsupported. Simply pointing out a fallacy doesn’t constitute the Fallacy Fallacy.
So by saying “Likewise”, you are saying it is a: fallacy fallacy fallacy
Im not here for pure vanilla gonewild. I’m here for hentai.
It’s another of those things where it won’t be problem once lemmy develops more.
Right now, if I’m scrolling all, I can get hit with a face full of scat before I can implement a block. Which is a major problem for anyone using anything but jerboa or web, since none of the other apps can block things yet.
Lemmy doesn’t have a flair system to auto filter things preemptively (though I think the connect app does it an the app).
I’m not a prude. I used to be a nurse’s assistant, so nudity is meh to be, and I’ve seen more feces than is fair. I’ve had more feces on me than most people ever see in their life, tbh. But it would be very nice to not have to run across it because someone here made a brand new c/ that I haven’t blocked yet. And again, and again, and again.
Hell, all the damn furry futa is at least funny for someone that isn’t into the kink. But, for fucking real, I have seen all the shit I want to see in my life. That should be opt in only kink, you feel me? I can’t opt out of seeing it the first time. So, yeah, maybe the idea of someone making an extreme kink instance that’s easier to avoid since everyone will defederate it while leaving this one alone is a good idea.
Just saying, there are some things that are just not going to be welcomed by other instances. Scat is one that’s likely to cause more trouble than it’s worth.
I would like to continue browsing all to pick up on interesting slices. I don’t terribly mind filtering out stuff I’m not intersted. What I mind is the ridiculous amount of communities being pumped out for every concievable permutation and subvariation of interests.
It’s another of those things where it won’t be problem once lemmy develops more.
Off-topic, but I’ve seen this sort of hopeful thinking a lot on here, and I’m not really sure where it’s coming from. When are you expecting Lemmy development to fix this, and what are you basing that on?
It’s a necessary function. It’s just a matter priorities and time.
So, manually basically part hope, part prediction, and part projection lol.
I just worry about being too presumptuous. I don’t want to crush any optimism; I’d love to see the project grow and improve with new features to better serve the community’s needs. On the other hand, I also realize those changes won’t happen simply because everybody expects them to.
“Lean on God if you must, but row away from the rocks.”
