- cross-posted to:
- evs@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- evs@lemmy.world
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By pricing their models competitively, right?
…right?
Exactly.
Europeans like Chinese electric vehicles because they are affordable.
Meanwhile European manufacturers are probably pushing behind the scene to restrict the Asian competitors on the market so they can decide what price is right.
In the next months in France they will reduce the subsidies for Electric Vehicle with a poor CO2 bill like imported Chinese cars.
So even less people will get to afford EVs.
I don’t think this is just about cheap Chinese labor importing cheap Chinese cars to Europe. It’s also about Europe ignoring the importance of battery tech and manufacturing for decades and suddenly acting all surprised that we are not competitive.
How VW, one of/the largest car manufacturers in the world, turns out the overpriced shit EVs it does, yeah… No wonder people are looking elsewhere
Covid also really did a number on the car market (like so many others), probably take another 2-4 years before the used market gets anywhere back to normal.
VWs recent EVs were shit as well. Paywall locking the biggest battery behind the most expensive high performance model when people who are looking to adopt are chasing the max range as possible due to range anxiety. A shit infotainment system that controls everything but regularly crashes or lags out. Crap charging rates, crap regen and efficiency. Killing off their more popular entry level trim that was actually priced competitively to drive up margins.
Its just another example of a market dominator trying to abuse their position in a new space and coming unstuck. They had to cut back on shifts and staff at their EV plants they fucked up that hard.
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Stellantis just released the e-C3. It is priced competitively.
I thought this was a new brand of cars I never heard of but no, you used the name of the corporate group instead of Citroen, confusing! Looks nice though, modern Citroen are really nice.
Yes, sorry. I used to follow FCA news a lot and I’m used to use the Corp name instead of the brand.
They have an electric suv under $20k usd
Sure, it’s probably gonna last like a mid-90’s Kia, but for the price it’s pretty nice.
At the rate of industrial investment into this tech coupled with some places punishing gas cars, a cheap car that spans the gap from now until affoedable and better EVs is the perfect prescription, not to mention we havent stopepd having some form or financial crises since covid.
I think it’s debatable. Is it really good if all the energy that went into making the vehicle goes to waste because it only lasts 50k miles? At that point you’re basically building disposable vehicles.
I think the sweet spot for this period is in hybrids that allow people to run on electricity around town but also have the ICE as a fallback for long/extended trips. The main hesitancy with EVs is range anxiety (ignoring high prices) and hybrids solve that issue while still retaining a lot of the benefits of an EV.
The problem with that is that phevs are surprising expensive/heavy/complicated. It’s why Chevy discontinued the volt over the bolt. And why chevy had to cut a lot of costs on the volt to get it down to a semi-acceptable price (the volt didn’t even have power seats except on the Premier, and only on the drivers side).
Honestly, I prefer not to have power seats. It’s faster to adjust manual seats in my experience and there’s both fewer things to break and less weight.
I’ve found I can never get a manual seat just right myself, they’re either slightly too far forward, or slightly too far back.
Electric let’s you get it just right
Does that midpoint between 2 steps really make such a difference? 🧐
Yes, yes it does.
Agreed. Although having seat settings linked to individual fobs is nice. If you share a vehicle you don’t have to mess around with all the settings every time. Moot point though.
A large port of cars are recycled, so I’m not sure the energy costs are a big deal.
A huge amount of the overall CO2 output of EVs is from the manufacturing process though. It doesn’t matter if you can recycle the aluminum, for example, bc you still need to heat it to be recast and we’re not exactly using nuclear or solar to power our forges.
Mining is responsible for more CO2 than the rest of manufacturing. We also do use renewables for aluminum - there is enough energy required that energy cost is a big deal and so production is done in areas where energy is cheap - generally meaning geothermo.
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The solid state batteries that seem to be clearly on the verge of mass production within the next few years are going to make everything they’re making now horribly obsolete. I’ve been considering a EV for my next vehicle and will definitely be waiting now.
People have been saying that for years. They could well still be 10 years out since we’ve only recently gotten them working on test benches. I’m not going to keep burning gas in the meantime.
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I’ve seen so much EV vapourware come and go over the years, I’m extremely sceptical about any new technology like this.
I do sincerely hope it comes through though, range and charging speed are very much the limiting factors for EV tech right now.
While researching Chinese EVs I came across articles about abandoned EVs, the article claimed it was because they were made obsolete (they have roughly 100 mile range or less) so they were abandoned for the newer cheaper models with 3-5x that range, that problem is probably gong to be a bigger one to tackle than Chinese EV longevity, which supposedly aims for roughly 200,000km lifecycle which is 125k miles (average ice car has a lifespan of 130k miles). It also showed me how close to production those batteries you are talking about are, there’s a bold claim that the battery could be good for 2 million kilometers, if it’s even on the same order of magnitude of that, it would make so many EVs ‘obsolete’.
If I was in the market for a new car, I’d strongly consider them because of the cost even knowing the quality may be low. It’s still an EV and would hold its value for now. It’s a good alternative to the slim-pickings we have here in the states
The political class trying to protect the interests of the billionaire class. You grow up under this capitalist system and all you hear is “competition is driving innovation” but the moment true competition comes knocking on your door, you lock yourself into a room.
State literally calls itself communist. (Operates more like a fascist state than a communist one)
Conducts ever more of its industry through the state and strictly controls the banks and loans.
Exercises huge subsidies across the entire economy which is visible through their massive and growing imbalance between their internal consumption and export.
“You only say it’s not capitalist because they aren’t white”
No I say they aren’t capitalist because they aren’t capitalist.
China is closer to neo-mercantilism due to the level if direct state involvement in private business.
As a nationalist economic policy, neo-mercantilism integrates well with the fascist economic model, particularly in this age when the masses are so accustomed to foreign goods that they might find the explicit notion of autarky alienating.
Yes but ideologically China is not aligned with fascism at all. They are on paper still pretending to be Marxists. Fascism is opposed to Marxism.
And what do you call an authoritarian ethnic state that has co opted capital to ensure and spread state control over public and private life?
Authoritarian, which you already mentioned.
And why should I, a European consumer, care if China has a communist economy or not?
Same shit to me. You live your entire life under capitalism being lied to about how “competition drives innovation” and suddenly when competition knocks on your door, you lock yourself in.
Because China achieves it’s goals though large scale industrial subsidy and directly suppresses global wages as a result result, impacting your paycheck.
I’m sorry, but why aren’t we doing anything about all the subsidies and forgiveable loans (including the ones these companies are using as tax deductible to pay 0 euros taxes while banking billions) my government is handing out to banks, property management companies, car manufacturers, petroleum product producers then?
I’m not entirely sure why they want to fight low prices? The article doesn’t say why EU and others shouldn’t be able to afford e-vehicles
They undercut the sales of European vehicles which cost more.
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“Capitalism breeds innovation and drivers prices down!”
Capitalism: no not like that
Unsustainable Chinese state subsidy is not capitalism.
Unsustainable state subsidies are not capitalism. Remember it’s not just the Chinese that do this kind of stuff.
Of course they are, subsidies are one of capital’s favourite methods to siphon money out of the populace. Or were you under the impression that greedy people like playing fair on fair markets?
It’s literally socialism but for the rich.
Every country does some level of industry subsidy. So it’s kind of baked into capitalism now. And, technically, has been since the beginning.
yes, it is, USA also do that, and others countries with fossil fuel
Yes, and the EU largely responds in the sectors of US subsidy. Food imports are restricted. Airbus and Boeing are constant sources of trade spats, etc.
Chinese subsidy makes American subsidy look like childs play. Their response to China should match that discrepancy.
They are talking about car subsidies which China does and not all countries do in all markets.
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It’s not that simple. Caricatures are easy, but the fact remains that the Chinese auto makers are heavily subsidized and it’s that government support that allows them (partially at least) to undercut the European auto makers.
That being said, the European auto makers really deserve to be hurt for their arrogance. And that’s coming from someone whose income is directly related to how well they do.
If the EU bans Chinese cars, that’s not capitalism in action.
low prices
They’re fighting Chinese market manipulation that is specifically designed to make the world dependent on them and lowers wages across the world by creating massive market imbalances. Every nation with two brain cells should ban the import of all Chinese vehicles and eventually all Chinese industry entirely.
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Would they not have to be, if the owner were to register them in the country?
In the US they would, unless they get an exception (which generally means they are not cars and cannot be used on roads, though there are other ways to get an exception: none would apply to anything mass market)
I don’t know what EU rules are.
Eu rules are the same.
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Golf carts, ATVs, UTVs commonly are allowed on roads under various local rules despite not meeting safety rules for road vehicles.
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I think generally, if the car is a make and model that has previously passed inspections, they don’t need to be re-inspected? For instance, you don’t generally run into a situation where your ford focus is inspected, because that make and model is already “well known” so to speak.
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The Chinese cars by Chinese manufacturer are generally getting excellent safety rating. Most of them get 5 stars on NCAP crash test.
On the other hand the Renault Zoe, one of the best selling European car by a european manufacturer got a 0 star on the same crash test. It’s not an isolated case, the e-c3 got a 0 star on the latin american test, I’m waiting to see what will be the score in Europe.
I’m not saying that Chinese car are better but the bad reputation is not justified anymore. Europeans automakers should get their shit together if they want to survive.
Chinese electric car makers get absolutely massive state subsidies. There are companies like Nio that have never made a single dollar of profit. Nio has been losing money on every single car they sell, to the point where they’ve been losing almost a billion dollars in the last quarter alone.
However, China doesn’t care. The state keeps financing these companies, because if they can undermine European and American auto makers to the point where they’re simply unable to compete and maybe even completely collapse, then Chinese car makers will be the only ones left in the market, and they’ll be able to charge any price they want.
And realistically, which American or European car maker will be able to compete with a multitude of Chinese competitors that all can afford to lose billions and billions every year without batting an eye?
So that’s why they want to fight “low prices.”
What article? That’s an ad.
As long as safety and environmental regulations in China are lower than in Europe, it will always be cheaper to produce there.
What is Europe if not Europeans?
Government trying to steer a herd of impulsive and selfish citizens into doing what makes sense for the collective (or what they believe makes sense (or what they’re trying to convince us they believe makes sense))
deeper nested brackets Or what the car lobby tells them they should try to convince they believe makes sense
Not a single head of any of the car makers who participated in the rigging of diesel car emissions testing went to jail.
Diesel car emssions are thought to kill around 10000 people per year in Europe (not all of which the excess emissions resulting from the rigging, but part of it).
Not even human lives are more important than the wishes of the car lobby for european politicians.
If there’s money to be made, large companies regardless of nationality will gladly slaughter the mass for a profit increase.
The really shocking bit, however, is how our supposed representatives will help them out.
To be fair, stuff like the GDPR is probably not in the lobby’s best interests, so they do bring good regulation too
(((Triple brackets in internet speak means the thing is Jewish or a dogwhistle you lemon)))
Wow, what the actual fuck, why do nazis need to ruin everything?
I think ruining things is just their whole identity, but tbh, of all the things they’ve ruined, triple brackets is pretty low on the list.
RIP to all your apparent Internet communications that people have taken as weirdly out of place anti-semitism though
Is it racist to say I’d never buy a Chinese car just on principle?
If it’s because you hate Asians, then yes. If it’s because you believe China makes bad products or because of their unethical practices, then no.
It could be all three since racists tend to think China makes bad products and have unethical practices because they are Chinese due to conflating race and culture.
I am kinda Asian LOL.
It’s just that most non-electronic Chinese manufactured stuff is just terrible build quality.
It could be, you’d have to define the principle.
I’m prejudiced against Chinese manufacturing - it’s all shit.
It isn’t. You get what you pay for.
Only if it had something to do with race. If it’s because you don’t think their manufacturing standards are high enough to feel safe that wouldn’t be racist per se.
Electric cars are so much simpler than ICEs…they’re almost “phones with wheels”…so IF you happen to
“trust”“buy” their phones, it’s not a huge jump to cars…but it’s a jump 😅 , just not on principle.I get your point but choosing Chinese phones as a trust example is hilarious. Every Chinese phone has a backdoor straight to China.
Your Apple or Android have a high probability of having all or part made in China.
I know, maybe trust was not the right expression. The issue is that we still buy them, even if we know they’re pumped full of spyware from a country that is not an ally.
Depends if it is based on culture/race or the country’s economic and other policies.
Maybe that’s because VW & co. are similiar to a Käfer under the hood.
