The Israeli rescue service Zaka says its paramedics removed more than 260 bodies from a music festival that came under attack by Hamas militants.
The total figure of bodies found is expected to be higher, as other paramedic teams were also working in the area and Zaka added that the bodies “haven’t all been collected yet”.
Early on Saturday morning, Hamas targeted Nova music festival, a techno rave in the desert near the border with Gaza.
Videos shared on social media and by Israeli news outlets showed dozens of festival-goers running through an open field as gunshots rang out. Many hid in nearby fruit orchards or were gunned down as they fled.
“I used to have support for the Native Americans, but then a tribe massacred an outpost on the land that was slowly being carved from them by colonizers. Now I’ve lost all goodwill for their struggle”
The indigenous, oppressed peoples proceed to get wiped out and the colonizing states take over the entire land mass
This type of violence does not need to celebrated. It should be mourned as tragic. Its perpetrators condemned.
But so many are applying fairness or rules to a conflict that has neither.
If you create the conditions for war and terrorism, do not be surprised when war and terrorism come.
There’s a difference between attacking unarmed civilians at a music festival and war. The terrorists should always be condemned, and you’re painting with far too broad of a brush here.
There’s a difference between freedom fighters and murderers.
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I agree with your main point. The actions of the Hamas are abhorrent. But many here are equating it with the will of all Palestinians and that’s simply not true.
I don’t understand how these acts, which clearly will not help Palestinians, can be seen as the something they all would want.
I don’t think it’s the will of all Palestinians and absolutely shouldn’t be considered as such, but that’s why the denunciation must be absolute in order to bring legitimacy to the cause. It’s the same reason MLK would leave cities if rioting began. I wish it didn’t have to be this way but too many people are unable to think with a healthy dose of nuance.
Last time I checked, only fascists believe “the will of an ethnic group” is even a thing.
You can still condemn the terrorists – 99% of the people in those conditions have chosen not to go on a murderous rampage of civilians.
I agree though, by and large. Hamas is the problem here, not Palestinians, and Hamas should be condemned by everybody. Its hard to say that they’re trying to help Palestinians when they do attacks like this, knowing full well they are associated with Palestine. The attack has certainly changed my perspective about them operating out of civilian buildings. They’re using Palestinians as living hostages.
It would be in everybody’s best interest for a global coalition to root them out and Israel to get a non apartheid government. But we all know none of that is going to happen.
The problem as others stated above, is that Palestinian and Hamas are often interchangeable. Just like Russian and anti-LGBTQ.
When the majority of your people support the regime, you can’t reasonably claim your well meaning minority is actually how it is. It’s not.
America had its same epiphany when they realized the vast majority of Republicans aren’t just some fooled centrist hanging with the wrong people. They’re fascist shit stains too, they’re just quiet or polite about it lol.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
I don’t think it’s fair to go by older polls. This attack may have significantly shifted opinions.
actually there was ~1000 attacckers coming from gaza thats 0.05% of the population
If you create the conditions for war and terrorism, do not be surprised when war and terrorism come.d
What do you think raping and massacring people at a music festival is going to do?
That clearly isn’t “fighting back”. It’s not war, its not even terrorism. They aren’t achieving any sort of win, or working towards independence.
This is honestly a disgusting comment.
What do you think raping and massacring people at a music festival is going to do?
Nothing, just cause more suffering. But this isn’t a bad guy vs good guy argument. The point that’s being made is that extremism tends to be a product of its environment.
Please note that this is not an anti-Israel line of arguing.
Conditions in Gaza are terrible and many people have lost loved ones during their lives there. It creates an environment where extremism can flourish. It’s not a certainty, but the probability is just much higher in environments that are severely deprived.
The actions of Hamas are inexcusable, and Israel will surely want to bring them to justice. But after that it’s time to acknowledge that if conditions in Gaza are kept as poor as they are, the chances of this type of violence happening again are almost guaranteed. It’s also in the interest of Israel to allow and facilitate improved conditions in Gaza.
This type of violence does not need to celebrated. It should be mourned as tragic. Its perpetrators condemned.
So… then how about you simply condemn the perpetrators instead of making excuses for them and blaming the victims.
People that have been conditioned to hate Israel really can’t help themselves can they? You must know how terrible it looks that you’re trying to hamasplain this shit, but you literally can’t stop yourself from doing it can you?
The world isn’t so black and white.
Hamas doing unspeakable things doesn’t make Israel the good guys in this conflict.
So… then how about you simply condemn the perpetrators instead of making excuses for them and blaming the victims.
this is like me making a hole in my roof and then blaming the rain
indigenous, oppressed peoples
Uh… you’re gonna have to clarify which side you mean here.
While it’s pretty clear Native Americans were in America first- not so much with the current belligerents.
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Palestine was already a country in 1947. Not so much for Israel.
*British Mandate
And Israel has been a country for the last 50 years. The Six Day War is already over. They lost.
Now, they will lose everything else.
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When do you start the timeline though? The Palestine / Israel conflict has been going for 100 years right? Are you comfy saying Israel is the original aggressor?
Full disclosure: I dislike all fundamentalist religious societies. I don’t believe in holy land, and I think people on both sides are reaping what they’ve sown by insisting they are gods chosen people. So I’m not defending Israel, but I’m not defending Palestine (and especially Hamas) either.
Obviously Israel is the original aggressor
Then please point to the original aggression
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Sorry its just so rare to find someone who completely understands every aspect of a 100 year war and has all the answers.
So nothing that happened pre-Nakba matters, Amin al-Husseini and the attacks in the 1920’s don’t count because reasons?
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Lol all my comments make it clear I hate zionists. Fuck zionists.
So you admit there’s no single starting point for the conflict if pre-nakba events are taken into account, you just like to make an incredibly complex issue black and white to make yourself feel smart then? Its fine for Palestinian nationalists to take actions to expel jews from the region that became Israel, but because Israel formed a state to defend itself, they are in the wrong?
If neither side were fundamentalist shit heads trying to destroy their neighbors way of life, they wouldn’t have these problems. When Arabs were the majority with the power the killed and drove the jews out in the name of nationalism, now the Israelis do the same
And both groups disgust me, and would hurt and destroy my way of life if they had the power to do so. If pslestinian Arabs wanted to use the dhemmi system when they had power, what right do they have to insist equal treatment now? Bunch of hypocrites
The world would be better off if Jerusalem were wiped off the planet. Then no one gets it. Problem solved.
Ok, but there is literally a post on the front page of .ml saying you are not allowed to even use the word “condemn”
well put.
oppress a population until they fight back and then yell terrorism
That’s a lot of words for refusing to just agree that murdering and raping civilians at a concert is indeed bad, even when the oh so oppressed Hamas raider thugs do it.
They aren’t the oppressed indigenous folks, they’re the corrupt rez bosses that suction off all the jobs and projects to benefit their clique, brutally disappear anyone who speaks out against them or even just says something they decide they don’t like, and then claim any outside judgement is targeted harassment.
No, a terrorist pillaging, mass raping and murdering of civlians is not “if you create the conditions for war and terrorism…” despite the whinging of Hamasaboos insisting otherwise these monsters actively chose to murder civlians, actively chose to rape civilians, and kept actively choosing to do it when at no point was there any juncture where choosing to do so could be in any way construed as justified or necessary.
People trying to claim this is retaliatory violence make me fucking sick to my stomach as a Palestinian American. You fucking Bougeyevik fetishizers try to sweep this under some victim blaming rug as if us le oppressed global southis are unjustly oppressed when held to the lofty standards of “don’t rape and murder civilians.”
I don’t want excuses for their behaviour, I don’t want westsplainers telling me that it’s fine and dandy for my kin to commit such heinous and vile acts. I don’t want le revolutionaries leading global liberation from their $3,500 gaming rig bought by their upper middle class mittelpolitik parents to fetishize my people’s struggle to the point where any sin committed painted in that struggle’s colors is to be defended and qualified and whataboutismed like a vital supply route that will end the struggle overnight if the mere point is conceded that yes, Hamas raping and Murdering civilians is indeed bad and without excuse, justification, or proportionately causal context.
I want these thugs rounded up and put to Nuremberg Part II, I want Israel to drop the colonialist pretenses and join with the PLO to found a new democratic state with strict human rights protections, and I want any supremacist or separatist who’d challenge that necessity for any hope of a lasting peace to be dragged to the sea they wanted to push the other side into, and forced to go in and never come out again.
Because everyone who lives there has a fucking right to keep living there, because freedom of movement is a human right, and the land doesn’t belong to anyone, and acting like it can belong to someone is literally the batshit insane nonsense that got us here to begin with!
dammī falasTēnī, 'annā beitla7mī, wa’anna sayim kitīr la’enton!
I don’t want excuses for their behaviour, I don’t want westsplainers telling me that it’s fine and dandy for my kin to commit such heinous and vile acts
nobody said that XD
people just understand why this happened and only a fool would be surprised that an oppressed population will react wildly eventually.
Hamas are not the oppressed, they are the oppressors.
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Wholesale slaughter of innocents? What a way to show Palestinians are the ones we should support.
I had been pretty much on the Palestinian side of the conflict for some time.
This attack has absolutely burnt any goodwill I had for the Palestinian cause. If Mexico attacked America in this manner, we would likely own everything south of the Gulf of California.
I cannot fathom what Hamas thought would come of this.
“Palestine” is not the one that did this. Hamas is a terrorist group, and their actions do not justify the fact that the Israeli government operates an apartheid state where people are given rights, status, and property on the basis of race, and also participates in the slaughter of innocent people.
This isn’t a “whoever’s worse should lose” situation. Israel commits human rights violations and Hamas is a terrorist group.
Hamas is the governing body of Palestine.
It was Palestine who did this.
Strictly speaking, it’s the governing body of Gaza, which hasn’t held elections in well over a decade. The West Bank is governed by the party Fatah, which is much less militant.
There is, however, the awkward truth that the West Bank has also not held elections in a long time, precisely because Hamas would probably win them.
At last count, Hamas had something like a 75 percent approval rating in Gaza.
The support among all Palestinians is just over 50 percent.
Only 14 percent support the opposition party.
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People trash studies constantly as if they know the one thing wrong with it that just makes it all a lie.
No, most studies are pretty damn robust. There are numerous well known statistical analysis methods that fall in line with real life outcomes despite limited n.
Chances are, unless you’re a statistics analyst publishing polls yourself, your methodoligies aren’t better.
You can almost always find the reputable studies papers or methods too. They don’t exactly hide them.
Keep harping about how they’re wrong though when properly cited. It just paints a red flag on your head lol.
Being in their position, I think I’d also support the only group fighting for my liberty and rights, even if they are morally tainted.
By this logic all Iranians support their current Islamist government, which everyone and their mother knows to not be true.
Do you support everything your government does?
My government doesn’t have a 75% approval rating like Hamas does.
I have trouble believing any government truly has such high approval.
which should suggest you something?? you are SO close
No but i still am part of my country. Every thing my government does represents my country and therefore me.
I have to disagree.
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That’s why you revolt and form revolutions. But, when a majority of the country is on the wrong side, that becomes the public face of the country.
The government represents the people, the people do not represent the government.
That mindset will lead you to boot licking
Everything my government does represents me, even when it doesn’t represent me at all. Actually, nevermind.
Did Germany support everything the Nazis did? No, not every citizen, but it was enough support to give Hitler his rise to power and descend into WWII.
Did Afghanistan support everything the Taliban did? No, but war was the only response to 9/11.
In the end, war sucks and many innocent people will be caught in the crossfire. But, I don’t see any other end result out of this. Israel has been so beaten down by terrorist attacks and hostility since literally the day the country was formed that war is the only way forward. They have tried every other option for the last 50 years.
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That’s like saying when Republicans do something stupid. It’s America. It’s not. There’s far more going on. And that’s just disingenuous.
The lack of nuance displayed around here sometimes is truly disturbing.
“Them versus us” mentality is very prominent in modern society and it’s only gotten worse. Not just in the context of conflicts, it’s a general problem.
Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. They don’t control the West Bank where the majority of Palestinians live.
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you’re going to have to say you killed
No, to be consistent they’d have to say America killed them. No need to switch from blaming a country to blaming an individual citizen.
I think a majority of Americans would admit America killed them.
I think it’s quite obvious they were using the royal ‘you’, as in America (almost every American assumes everyone else is also American in the internet unless otherwise stated).
And they’re right, American soldiers did unspeakable things in Afghanistan and Iraq, but that doesn’t mean all Americans are responsible for the decisions those soldiers made.
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Forget about consistency, this is just flat out incorrect. You’re trying to equate two different distinct sets of people, one of which contains the other.
Group A (superset) includes Bob, Alice, Sue, Mike, Cole, Anthony, Tony, Joanna, and Jerry.
Group B (subset #1) includes Bob, Alice, Sue, Mike. They voted for Anthony to run group A and received a majority, so Anthony assumed power.
Group C (subset #2) includes Anthony, Sue, Mike, and Joanna. They form a government and military over/of group A. They kill a bunch of people.
Group C is NOT EQUAL TO group A. Period. No argument, no “but what if”, they are two different groups. Note that Cole, Tony and Jerry (group D) are flatly not represented in any way by the actions of group C.
Are they? Palestine isn’t an independent state, so how is their governance determined?
I hate the phrasing “terrorist group” here. Not because what happened here wasn’t an atrocity, but because people generally refuse to call state-backed violence “terrorist” violence. The word terrorism is incredibly broad, easily describing a ton of things Israel does. Yet, we refuse to call them a terrorist organization.
Israel slaughtered hundreds of protesters 4 years ago in Gaza.
Israel and Egypt have been blockading the Gaza strip in violation of the GCIV since 2007.
In 2014, a triple-homicide was committed. Israel claimed it was Hamas, and arrested hundreds of Palestinians. Hamas sent rockets into Israel, killing 2 people, and Israel initiated Operation Protective Edge, killing thousands of Palestinians.
Not to mention the entire Israel-Palestine conflict can be traced back about 100 years, where imperialist Britain endorsed the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine in the Balfour Declaration. Eventually leading to the formation of Israel in the late 40s and the subsequent ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, forcing nearly a million natives to move to make way for Israel.
“terrorism” is politically charged language with the intent of making us sympathize with a certain side. Of course we’ll side with the “Israel state” and against the “Hamas terrorist group”. The language used to describe these groups already prescribes how we should view them. Western media will never describe Israel’s atrocities as terrorist actions, so people will dismiss the slaughter of tens or even hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians as “just war”.
“Palestine” is not the one that did this.
Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas. They allowed this shit to fester.
We shouldn’t conflate the people of Isreal with the extremist State of Isreal, we shouldn’t conflate the people of Palestine with Hamas. Atrocities have been committed on both sides and each one is an atrocity, but the fact remains that the Palestinian people are living under an apartheid and therefore should be supported despite acts committed by extremists in it’s name. This situation shouldn’t be reduced to a simplistic one-sided team sport. Palestine still needs liberating.
It’s difficult to not conflate them with hammas when 80% supprts them and celebrated the attack
Honest question: What would you do if you were born there?
seek refuge somewhere else.
You expect me to believe you would simply leave behind the place you were born and all of your loved ones?
Already did so actually and it wasn’t even comparable to the situation in gaza so yes , I would definitely leave … I don’t care if you don’t believe me.
Edit: actually you can search my comments from before the recent attacks and find a few that support the fact i am an expatriate.
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I stop reading and ask for a refund for the book.
Just like in Israel…
Source, post-attack?
80%
Where are you getting this figure from? I see ~29% from this poll:
conducted in 2023.
your source is about voting, voting implies approval but not voting doesn’t imply lack of approval…
electing them as leaders is not the same as approving their actions. even then, from your own source 47% of the polled in gaza would vote for hamas. that is the lower bound of their approval %.
one source cites 75% approval : https://www.nbcnews.com/news/gaza-strip-controls-s-know-rcna119405
My source is a comprehensive poll covering a bunch of different topics. Most centrally:
If new parliamentary elections were held today with the participation of all political forces that participated in the 2006 elections, 64% say they would participate in them, and among these participants, Fateh receives 36%, Hamas’ Change and Reform 34%, all other lists combined 9%, and 21% say they have not yet decided whom they will vote for. Three months ago, vote for Hamas stood at 34% and Fatah at 33%. Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 44% (compared to 44% three months ago) and for Fateh at 32% (compared to 28% three months ago). In the West Bank, vote for Hamas stands at 24% (compared to 25% three months ago) and Fatah at 40% (compared to 34% three months ago).
A little over a quarter (27%) believe that Hamas is the most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people today while 24% believe that Fateh under the leadership of Abbas is more deserving; 44% believe both are unworthy of representation and leadership. Three months ago, 31% said Hamas is the most deserving, 21% said Fateh led by Abbas is the most deserving, and 43% said both are unworthy of representation and leadership.
which isn’t even close to 80% no matter how you look at it.
Your NBC News one says this:
The group’s popularity grew after a two-week conflict with Israel in 2021, with roughly 75% of those polled viewing Hamas as safeguarding the Al-Aqsa Mosque and other Muslim holy sites in East Jerusalem.
which is a very different thing than general approval…
It’s spelled Israel
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The us doesn’t hold Mexico or Mexicans in an open air concentration camp we regularly demolish buildings in with war munitions for simple allegation with no due process.
I’m going to bet it’s going to come out that this is essentially Iran and other countries sending mercs to act as Hamas just as the last major offensive was.
The native Americans would beg to differ about how the United States treated the people who were here before them.
I’m talking about Mexico today currently as was the person I replied to, and yes as a native I’m aware how shitty the us still treat its native populaces.
The us doesn’t hold Mexico or Mexicans in an open air concentration camp
True. The concentration camps on and near the US-Mexican border aren’t open air.
There was already an article out that said Iran helped hamas.
Tehran is saying they didn’t do it. But articles from wsj and the like have said they did help.
There is no justification for what they’ve done. Senseless violence breeds senseless violence, but we can still blame those who do violence. Everyone subjected to Israel’s abuse isn’t killing civilians.
At this point it seems clear to me that Hamas is just using the Palestinians and doesn’t actually care about them.
You’re arguing a point I never made. Point to where I excuse the behavior, I’ll wait.
Duh, they were an ultra religious sect Israel allowed to exist because they were actively fighting the same enemy, secular Palestinians.
Apologies. I didn’t mean to suggest you were excusing it, but my wording certainly implies I did. I just wanted to say that observing the geopolitical cause is different from excusing the murderers – which you’ve just pointed out.
Israel’s far right government and Hamas have an unholy union where they hurt Israeli and Palestinian civilians alike. Too many people conflate this with all Israelis and all Palestinians though :/
Bingo. Most Israeli aren’t zionists but all accounts, most Palestinians aren’t terrorists or even Muslim at this point iirc though frankly the religion is just an excuse to be shitty on all sides. Christians need an Israeli controlled holy land for their end days to happen, Islam wants all of the holy land to exclude Jews especially but Christians also, Israel wants all of Israel because a book says so. It’s fucking absurd.
Can you link where that was determined to be the case in their last offensive? Would genuinely like to read this if true.
Tag me if you get something I need to read about this.
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Hamas isn’t a rational actor fighting for a free Palestine; their one and only goal - literally written into their charter - is to eradicate every Jew from the land by force.
Every Jew they kill is a victory for them; there’s nothing more to it.
Dont forget the paraded naked woman that was spit on by people. Hamas are savages who are funded by Iran
This was an Iranian funded terrorist group, not a Palestinian liberation group. They claim to help the latter, but this attack makes it obvious they don’t give a shit about Palestinians, they just sent to hurt Israelis. Everyone is better off if the group can be destroyed.
This is who they have always been. In over half a century of conflict they have only ever chosen terrorism. Never once have they tried to achieve their goals through passive resistance, despite the historical lessons of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr, that this is the only strategy that works against overwhelming military force.
And the reason they haven’t tried it is because peaceful coexistance is not their goal. They want Israel destroyed, and have shown the world for the better part of a century that they will settle for literally nothing less.
This does not apply to other renown activists like Nelson Mandela nor does it apply to revolutionary movements like the American Revolution.
You don’t know what you’re talking about lol
That is patently false. Of course Palestinians have been using non violent civil society tactics for a very long time. What do you think the vilified BDS movement was/is about? Looking for a Mandela figure? Look up Marwan Barghouti. The problem is that every time moderate Palestinians become even a tiny bit successful at making their voice heard internally or externally, either Israel in an official capacity or the dominant nationalist Israeli political powers and their allies within and without move in to completely stifle them. This in turn allows only the most extreme Palestinian voices to survive, since in the absence of a public opinion with a Conscience and a Decency to listen to NV movements, extreme violent movements are the only ones that can thrive on persecution.
Palestinian passive resistance is well documented.
You should educate yourself on things like the Great March of Return. Palestinians (and yes, Hamas too) marched peacefully for over a year near the border fence that entraps them. Israel responded by killing over 200 people and injuring over 9000.
If you’re in the mood to get angry, go to youtube and look up interviews with IDF soldiers who did the shooting. Many smile and laugh as they brag about shooting unarmed civilians.
ROFL
Most protested peacefully, far from the border fence. However, groups mainly comprising young men approached the fence and engaged in violent actions directed towards the Israeli side. Israeli officials argued that Hamas used the demonstrations as cover for launching attacks against Israel
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I’m starting to wonder if that is the point. Groups like Hamas thrive on anger and conflict.
I’m both glad and sorry that this is what made you understand, hamas was like that ever since u remember myself, Israel never start those clashes. They always shoot hiding behind kindergartens, women and elderly people while the shoot thousands of missiles.
The only difference between previous ones to this one is that the caught us off guard
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so 0.05% of the population can make you change your political view about 2 millions people(plus people in west bank because fuck em right?)
then you never supported a free palestine
Hamas isn’t Palestine.
Palestine could sure help get rid of them if they wanted to.
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If they value their statehood, yes.
If Germany took care of their Nazi problem before it festered, the rest of the world wouldn’t have had to deal with the entirety of World War II, and German citizens wouldn’t have been punished with the brutal East/West division of its country. Countries should not tolerate fascism and terrorism within their own ranks, no matter who’s side they are on.
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Israel could sure stop invading if they wanted to.
In Gaza, they did in the mid 2000s. They even evicted all Jewish settlers and settlements, some at gunpoint; in an effort to secure peace.
no they just didnt want to lock them in the prison to be XD
Overthrow the violent military group holding them hostage?
That’s had Israel’ tactic approval to act as preferred enemy, which has international support?
Good fucking luck.
Palestine
And what government body do you propose is “Palestine”. This is why Israel is an apartheid state.
HOW???
Remind me how many Palestinians support Hamas and its ideology. You cannot make this comparison. Nothing Israel ever did comes near these levels of brutality.
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90% of the dead people in this conflict are Palestinians. this is a walk int he park comparatively for israel
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Also, it’s hard to poll oppressed people since they tend to answer what they think will not put them in any more trouble.
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!Sure
It’s always those pesky Palestinians doing the slaughtering! For 75 years!
That’s how they’ve been taking more and more land from Israel and they even build a gigantic illegal wall to box those poor Israelis in and stop them being able to leave freely! And with their military backing and funding from giant powerhouses in the west, those poor Israelis don’t stand a chance, it’s about time they fought back and stood up for themselves! They should defend their homes just like Ukraine!
Wait…
This is a chart that shows one thing only: Israel has the stronger military.
It doesn’t say a thing about who attempted to kill more civilians, and who took steps to avoid civilian deaths. It doesn’t say anything about who has made concessions for peace, and who has walked away from peace deals for almost a century.
If you think this chart shows that Israel is the bad guy, you would absolutely shit yourself if you saw a similar chart comparing the US and Nazi Germany.
If someone breaks into your house and says “give me this house and all your stuff or I’ll kill you and your family” and you refuse, so they kill you and take your house, are you in the wrong for not accepting their peace deal?
That’s a terrible analogy because it doesn’t fit the fact that for all kinds of reasons.
But for the sake of argument, let’s accept part of your basic premise.
Let’s assume that decades ago someone took over half of your grandma’s house (in which your large family lives). You’re super pissed that you have been relegated to half of what you still think of as your house.
The people in “your” house with you are much, much, much, much tougher than you, and you will never, ever, ever get them out by force.
The people in your house with you have tried time and again to come to a peaceful living situation with you, but you hate them so much that you have refused literally every single offer to live in harmony.
You constantly throw rocks at their children. Every once in a while you kill one of their children.
You do this while hiding behind your own children, so that if they fight back and shoot you, there’s a very good chance they’ll hit your children.
This is fine with you because you value the news story this will create more than you value the life of your own child.
The people in “your” house have the deed to the house, and have the might to do whatever they want with the house, and ask the neighbors recognize it is their house, even if they sometimes grumble about it.
The people in “your” house build a fence through the middle of the house to prevent you from killing their children, which you are still trying to do every single day.
The people in your house make sure you get food and water, but they are so sick of your violent behavior that they are choking you off from luxuries or prosperity of any kind.
You know your children could have a better life if you just accepted that you’ll never get the whole house back. Heck, if you asked nicely, you could probably still get a deed to the part of the house your live in. You could pass that on to your kids. They could rebuild. They could thrive by working with the people in “your” house.
But you hate the people in your house more than you love your own kids. So you keep this futile, hopeless, fighting going. And every day you wake up trying to kill their children.
That was a nice fantasy.
Meanwhile, the facts.
You think that’s bad?! You should see the chart of the evil United States low casualties versus the poor innocent Nazi casualties during WWII.
Everyone knows that body count tells the whole story!
Once again, was it the us invading a country and stealing it’s land? Or were they defending against someone trying to do that?
I can post random images of “facts”, too:
See, look at my post! I posted an image! Look at meeeeeeeee!!!
Good analogy, but it conflates Palestinians and Hamas. The latter is like a security guard that’s shown up and claims to help you, but is only concerned with hurting the other family and hides behind your kids, putting them at risk.
It’s also noteworthy that the “someone” at the beginning isn’t actually Israel even! You lived in the house, but it technically owned by Britain. The British told you to make room for a new family to live there, and the British arbitrarily decided what things were yours and what was theirs. The other family were originally refugees, and the rest of their family has been slaughtered.
The root of all of this was Britain arbitrarily drawing lines and ignoring where people were living. The exact same thing happened with India and its partition. The British listened to a Muslim nationalist and the whole country burned because of the arbitrary lines they drew. Gandhi’s intercession helped part of the country return to peace and stop the violence – and he was ultimately killed by a Hindu nationalist.
I’ve made a huge digression, but my point is everyone keeps fucking the Palestinians, including Hamas.
And exactly how does your argument justify these atrocities? This is whataboutism pur sang. Don’t get me wrong, the atrocities Israel has carried out are equally appalling, but that doesn’t justify what happened at that festival. This will likely only weaken the support the Palestinians have in the west.
It doesn’t justify the atrocities, but to immediately drop your support of the Palestinian people due to the acts of a militant group (likely orchestrated by Iran) is just dumb.
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It is what it is. The world needs some semblance of order and you can’t just go fucking killing this many civilians because somebody took your land.
So by this logic, Native Americans should’ve just accepted Manifest Destiny?
The rest of your statement is fine, the first part is stupid.
Edit: this isn’t support for Hamas’ actions, this is the consequence of Israel’s very real policies and actions that lead to stupid people with a lot of anger targeting civilians
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I just think people talking about killing civilians at a music festival being an atrocity (it is!) were probably really quiet about the regular civilian casualties caused by Israel year after year. In 12 years, the UN counted 5,590 deaths. That’s not 5,590 dead terrorists, but people are acting like the atrocities just started now. I’m very much willing to say “what about”, not because it should make people think this one isn’t horrible, but because they really should answer “what about the other ones you ignored”.
And one doesn’t even need to go backward. Israel’s already racking up civilian casualties, and you can bet there’s going to be some people who want to keep going until the Palestinian number is much higher than the Israeli number.
Plenty of people, within Israel and outside, care quite a lot about those deaths and also consider them tragedies. You’ll remember that Netanyahu isn’t exactly an uncontroversial figure within Israel.
That’s why this has been such an incredibly frustrating and disappointing series of events, because any possibility of peace has been thoroughly extinguished now, and Palestinian citizens are going to suffer even more. Hamas of course knew this going into it, and didn’t care because its aim has never been peace for Palestinians, but rather the extermination of all Jews within Israel (as explicitly stated in its founding charter).
Both Netanyahu and Hamas are probably riding a nice high right now. Both of their political positions improve the more people die on both sides.
There may be a real rally around the flag effect, but there’s a lot of anger at Netanyahu on the massive military and intelligence failures that made this possible. He may be able to stick around for this conflict, but he’s probably toast afterwards.
Likud’s entire thing has always been that they’re the ones that can be trusted to keep Israelis safe. That view is now completely shattered.
Perhaps there’s a glimmer of hope then. If a less conservative and radical party takes control, maybe we’ll see an independent Palestinian state that’s allied with Israel and jointly fights Hamas.
Unfortunately that’s very unrealistic :/. We’ll probably see an even more radical conservative group take power, and make us think Netanyahu was a saint in comparison. :/
Israel has never targeted civilians. Palestinians have always targeted civilians.
Hamas uses civilians as meat shields.
When people like you take INTENT out of the equation, your just doing Hamas’s bidding.
Then it sure is strange how they keep doing things that kill civilians. They’re not blowing up buildings because that particular building was especially good for launching rockets. It’s collective punishment optimistically aimed at some sort of regime change, but more likely just to feed domestic bloodlust. It’s certainly not degrading military capabilities. They’re gone well before the missile hits.
And this is just the direct deadly violence. They knock down houses and light their fields on fire. Those are civilian targets in service of ethnic cleansing, either performed directly by the state or by agents supported and defended by it.
Says you.
Is that all you could come up with?
They literally shot a journalist in the head and then sent military thugs to rough up people at the funeral. Your perspective is severely lacking context on one side.
According to who?
You have to take these stories with a grain of salt.
Do you remember the Jenin massacre?
Do you remember all the awful things that the Israelis did? It was horrific.
… Except …
It never happened. The Palestinians lied about it.
You know you can look this up so you don’t come across as an ignorant partisan right?
Her name was Shireen Abu Akleh
From the article:
“Several independent investigations carried out by various bodies and organisations, including the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, concluded that Abu Akleh was most likely killed by seemingly well-targeted shots fired by Israeli forces, despite her wearing clear identification as a journalist. Internal investigations carried out by the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) found “a high possibility” that Abu Akleh was “accidentally hit” by IDF gunfire. However, to date, Israeli authorities have not opened a criminal investigation into her death or held anyone accountable.”
So are you willing to amend your previous claim? Or do you just want to cast doubt on anything that shows the Israeli government in a bad light?
Edit: I almost forgot, here’s proof that Israeli military went to the funeral to beat pallbearers and others: https://apnews.com/article/shireen-abu-akleh-journalist-funeral-west-bank-bb71e2ec64dd034066bc6df4a9aa2fb3
And you know what, have some more quotes from the original article:
“The experts also decried the record-high number of killings of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem in recent months in the context of raids by Israeli forces, often targeting refugee camps. In 2022, out of 9000 Israeli operations, 702 targeted refugee camps in the occupied West Bank. In 2023, already more than 100 Palestinians have been killed in the context of such operations, including in Jenin, Nablus and Jericho. Since 2001, at least 18 Palestinian journalists have been reportedly killed by the IDF in the occupied Palestinian territory and no one has been held accountable for those deaths.”
A take I read earlier today is that Hamas tries to kill as many Jews as possible, Israel tries to kill as few Palestinian citizens as possible, and neither side is very successful.
Sounds about right really.
I don’t think that’s a great assessment. Israel is much better at avoiding civilian casualties than even the United States.
If they are the best in the world at minimizing civilian casualties during military operations, your definition of “very successful” might need some reexamination.
Is that right?
A grim but accurate observation it seems
Does the graph you just dismissed not make it clear they are absolutely not “equally appalling?”
Seems to me by the numbers they are far more appalling.
Edited to add: It does not justify the most recent attack, but it seems bizarre to pretend this is “both sides bad” when it’s “both sides bad, but one side objectively does a lot more bad”
It’s because the media is super biased in the UK and US, I assume. The reporting on the BBC has been all about how bad Palestine have been acting but nothing about what Israel is doing to them.
OF COURSE attacking a music festival is bad. But in context, I’m not fucking surprised they’re lashing out, and with more context, I think most people would feel pretty extremist if they were being killed and pushed out of their homes constantly for almost 100 years.
But hey the UK/US has to pretend nothing ireal does is wrong because they created this mess.
Just in case it wasn’t clear, I completely agree with you.
but one side objectively does a lot more bad
This is only true because Israel is good at stopping attacks, not because Hamas isn’t trying.
Graph intentional attacks targeted at civilians and you’ll get a very different picture. Personally, if someone tried to murder my family but failed, I wouldn’t find them blameless just because they didn’t succeed.
Also missing from the picture is that for decades Hamas has been using Palestinian civilians as human shields, building bombs and rockets in the houses where children live, shooting rockets from inside schools and hospitals.
Hamas gave Israel the choice of letting it’s own children die, and not shooting back, or shooting back and Knowing that no matter how hard they tried (and they try pretty fucking hard) that they wouldn’t be able to avoid civilian deaths.
And ALL of this was because Hamas was banking on people in the west doing exactly what this gullible sap is doing: assuming that Israel is the monster.
And ALL of this was because Hamas was banking on people in the west doing exactly what this gullible sap is doing: assuming that Israel is the monster.
Hmm well maybe, but is there a part of this (taken from another comment) that you reject as untrue?
The 1967 borders are the most recent broadly recognized boundaries. After the Six Days War, Israel gained control of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.
As of today, East Jerusalem is a diverse but uneasy mix of Jews and Palestinians. Israel maintains that a unified Jerusalem is its capital, and this is the de facto situation. According to general peace plans, an eventual Palestinian state is meant to have East Jerusalem as its capital, so this is an obvious conflict point.
The West Bank is divided into three areas: A - administered by the Palestinian Authority, B - jointly administered by the PA and Israel, and C - administered by Israel. Israel has been increasingly building more and more settlements within Area C, which are widely recognized as illegal and being incredibly counter-productive towards peace. The Israelis who move there are often extremely nationalistic and often commit violence against the Palestinians.
I don’t disagree with any of that.
The important context is that the war in which Israel captured all that territory was a war where all of Israel’s neighbors were the aggressors.
And Israel quickly traded back land for peace, as was the case with Egypt.
And the neighboring Arab states DELIBERATELY created the Palestinian refugee crisis by refusing to take in all their former countrymen, believing that the humanitarian crisis was good politics for them, and would be a nightmare for Israel. (Correct on both counts).
I also agree that the settlements are a dick move, and purely antagonistic.
I also think Israel is using them as a bargaining chip.
I think in the Oslo Accords, Israel offered literally everything it could, and when that wasn’t enough, they leaned hard into creating settlements, a new bargaining chip, which someday they could add to future negotiations.
I also think that over time the Palestinians’ bargaining position has weakened.
Now that Israel has a security fence, the iron dome, and one of the most powerful militaries in the world, the daily threat of terrorism has been reduced to an unfortunate but livable state of existence. (This week excluded obviously)
Frankly at this point Israelis can wait out the Palestinians indefinitely, and I’m betting that when this current state of War is over, Israel is going to be in the business of securing themselves even more tightly.
I doubt if they’ll be inclined to ever offer Palestinians a peace deal as generous is the one they offered during the Oslo Accords.
Maybe they should try letting the Palestinians live in peace sometime, and see how that does at stopping the attacks.
Israel had occupied Gaza like it does the West Bank until 2005 when it withdrew, in hopes that it would lead to peace.
It was very shortly followed by a barrage of rocket attacks and the current blockade was enacted.
So, that has been tried. It wasn’t very effective.
Honest question because maybe what I think is the answer is not actually the answer.
How much land does Israel currently occupy that is outside the bounds of what was originally agreed as belonging to them?
The chart shows military might. It doesn’t show intent. It doesn’t show who tried to avoid bloodshed. It doesn’t show who ignited conflict after conflict.
A similar chart showing civilian deaths in WWII would show the US killed way more Nazi civilians than vice versa. Would you be arguing that the US was the bad guy in that war?
Depends, Which one was invading another country and claiming land?
Interesting you say that. In the Israel Palestine conflict, Israel was set up with the blessing of the international community and the sovereign powers that controlled the land at the time.
It was the surrounding Arab Nations that tried to invade and destroy Israel.
It was Israel’s COUNTER attack that created the occupied territories.
But the Palestinian refugee crisis would not have happened but for the aggression of Israel’s neighbors.
Set up with the blessing 😂
They got plonked into Palestine and told they could have it, by countries who weren’t anywhere near
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Yes, all revolutions in the history of the world are famous for rising against evil teenagers who were oppressing them.
Let’s hope Russia doesn’t start holding music festivals in Bakhmut
Keep those downvotes coming, Zionists. No matter how much you sweaty virtue signalers try to ‘own’ people on the internet, it doesn’t change the fact that Israel caged an animal, tortured it, and are now trying to put it down because it bit back.
You and I both know that equating the entire population of Palestine to an Iraq/Qatar-funded extremist group is entirely wrong, but whatever justifies the wholesale slaughter of thousands over the years I guess. Stop pretending to care about Israeli citizens so you can feel good about watching Palestinians die.
Let’s see a chart of the number of attempted murders of civilians from each side. That’ll paint a pretty different picture.
Tell me, because we both know that the Israeli casualty number is only low because Israel is good at protecting its citizens and not because Hamas isn’t trying to kill as many Israelis as it can, do you really think the situation would be better if Hamas was more successful at killing Israelis?
Of course not, I think they’re both fucking ridiculous fighting over a place named in their own personal fairytale.
One side being stronger doesn’t make the things they do right.
And to the exact same point, one side being less successful at killing citizens doesn’t make them right either.
Just because our military is in your country, stealing land, and keep killing you REALLY WELL, doesn’t mean you can retaliate to stop us.
You should tell Ukraine.
I don’t think your justification of “they’re just really good at killing Palestinians” really helps
If Hamas didn’t conduct military operations out of civilian buildings specifically so that the retaliation will kill civilians, that number would be a lot lower.
Ultimately, you either think that rape and murder of civilians for absolutely no reason is something that can be justified, or you don’t.
Is the concept of civilians vs military targets difficult for you to understand?
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The people slaughtered at the music festival were foreign nationals. They had nothing to do with this conflict.
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I’ve come to realize that a lot of statements we have about violence causing violence and cause and effect and such are observational, objective statements.
For instance, you saying Israel shoulders responsibility for cause and effect is a geopolitical analysis on why this attack occurred. It isn’t a judgment that says the attack is Israel’s fault – the blame lies squarely with the actual terrorists. Talking about the event itself is different from talking about the event geopolitically.
I know you probably already know this, but I’m still coming to grips with this duality.
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Thanks, likewise.
Hamas just shot every Palestinian in the dick.
Hamas…Iran… Russia just shot every Palestinian in the dick.It is really convenient for Russia that this is now happening. Hamas is not gaining anything from this attack. They knew they would not hold the land and it would be just a chaos attack and that Israel will retaliate with full force. So why did they do it? Is maybe they are backed by Iran and Iran decided now would be a good time to use their useful idiots to attack? But what would Iran gain from it? Is it maybe Iran is buddy buddy with Putin and he could use the distraction and would be able to pit opinions in the west against each other and would continue his plan to divide the west?
The Hamas are just useful idiots. There was no plan. It was instigated by some other group that couldn’t care less who is going do die in the end on either side, as it is not their countryman. It was either a good time for iran to instigate this for free or they were smart enough to get concessions from Russia to play out this act that really played into Russian cards.
Russia loves destabilizing this region. They support the Syrian regime and use the crisis of Syrian refugee to invite them for a university-opportunity to Moscovia to then put them in busses and send them through Belarus to the polish border. The images that they produce that was on the “Imigrant crisis overwhelming europe” is then played back to the right wing parties in Europe who are - suprise - mostly pro russian. Russia is actively destabilizing regions and holding them in disarray and encouraging further conflicts to create refugee crisis as close to Europe as possible. The profit immensly from destabilizing those regions and the public discourse that entails of that in the west.
I think Russia is a scourge on humanity and the geopolitical entity (not the people) should be destroyed by covert means, but your take is nothing more than conjecture.
The head of the Arab League went to Moscow to discuss this conflict.
There is definitely a lot of smoke that Putin’s calling the shots here.
Yeah, you are probably right, this pushes the news away from Ukraine, and of course Hamas is more than happy to help. Not defending Israel either, the whole region is a mess, but Russia meddling is really not helpful.
And they’re happy to do it. What’s the point of Hamas if neither Israelis nor Palestinians are dying? Both at the same time is their ideal environment.
Exactly, it’s why the Israeli military funded them through the 80s and 90s. If the moderates won then they wouldn’t give them excuses to glass hospitals and gun down children.
The most accurate take in this thread 👆
Ugh, fuck Hamas and everyone that supports them.
go to Hamas and tell them this directly, if you’re so brave
otherwise, there’s no use of your comment
I sit here, waiting for the order to get underway, for the EAM to set 1SQ so I can finally fucking launch some warheads on foreheads. Is that enough for you, or did you want me to 1306 to infantry?
Uh… not op… but, are you saying you’re sitting at some console, browsing lemmy while waiting to get the go ahead to launch nukes?
I think it was just a wordy euphemism for sitting on the toilet.
I’m sitting at my current location browsing because I’m obviously not underway - I still have internet access, on a non-secure website, on a non-secure device. Hence waiting for the order to get underway. If I were already underway I wouldn’t be able to browse the internet.
Oh okay. No disrespect, but from your other posts, I get the feeling you’re fresh out of boot camp. A sense of pride is healthy, but it can get you in trouble if you don’t keep it in check - loose lips sink ships.
Next time go with the euphemism for dropping a deuce, it’s funnier.
Nah, I’ve been in a hot minute. I’m a first class petty officer now, hoping to either make Chief or commission at some point. I know loose lips sink ships - nothing I’ve said is classified or controlled unclassified information, and all of it can be found on Wikipedia with a cursory search, and some common sense - I’m posting on the internet, so obviously I’m not underway. Mostly, I’m just trolling the civilians who think they know anything about the strategic picture. Thanks for your concern though, shipmate. It’s sincerely appreciated. Hooyah.
Hey - I might have given the wrong impression - I’m a civvy and never served. Grew up in a navy fam, so I have some exposure to life and lingo, but I won’t pretend to know shit. Stolen valor is fucked up, so I’m sorry if I gave you that vibe. Thank you for your service sailor.
Half of the Palestinian population is children but don’t let that stop you thirsting for the blood of kids whose land you stole, I hope the middle east erases facist state Israel off the map
We kicked in the door in the middle east, trashed the place, and left, multiple times now. We won’t hesitate to do it again, and this time, we might decide not to be as nice as we were the other few times. You should be careful where you post that sentiment. The CIA has eyes and ears everywhere. Sweet dreams.
How does boot taste?
I wouldn’t know, I’m the one wearing it, civilian. How does it taste? Tell me how the asphalt tastes.
Soo wait, you are proud of trashing the ME?
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Turns out hitting the music festival was a terrible idea, because it absolutely turned everyone against them.
except half the morons around here who thought this was justified
inclkuding, apparently, the lemmy development team…a surprising development if you ask me.
Explain?
lemmy developers appear to be pro-death squad. not sure what else to say.
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Palestinians using violent means might think they’re succeeding because they are actually getting landback for the first time in decades, but they fail to consider how bad it looks to me, a guy on the internet who thinks it would be better for their PR if they kept dying instead.
I dunno EDM sucks.
As does confining millions to an open air prison
As does Israel creating Hamas
As does the current Israeli government ignoring intelligence reports because they wanted this to happen.
Not me
The video that the NYT put out today of armed terrorists in technicals mowing down civilians from the road took years off my life. They rolled into Sderot and just shot anything that moved, which was mostly civilians along with firefighters and police.
Unfortunately, they also managed to kill a decent number of German, Thai, American, French, and other foreign nationals. Ironically, they also executed Israelis living in communes who were pressing for peace for Palestinians after the horrors of the 2014 war.
So completely overlooking the overlying political situation and just thinking about this incident - it’s fuckin horrible.
I’ve been at a whole lot of techno parties back in the day and just imagining these events triggers a real wince in my soul. Remember being off your head at a really good party with your mates and your partner and then imagine this shit happening. I mean, a fuckin rave is pretty much the opposite of a military target.
I’m thinking there’s a lot of criticisms to make on both sides of this conflict and a lot of comments here are focusing on that and overlooking the fucking horror of this incident right here.
There’s a lot of commenting from westerners about this, but it’s not going to matter. Israel is going to wipe out Hamas. Hopefully the regular Palestinians survive with out much damage. And in the future they have a better life.
But it is very clear the people of Israel are very united in what they’re need to do and how to do it.
regular Palestinians
“What regular Palestinians? Those doctors and children were clearly armed militants” - the IDF probably.
I heard an Israeli coworker claim that the IDF is the worlds most moral army. With blind-belief like that, they are gonna commit some crazy atrocities.
I’ve read Hamas specifically runs military operations in civilian buildings like hospitals as a meat shield, is that not true?
This is a claim regularly made by the IDF. It seems fairly likely and I haven’t seen any evidence to the contrary.
I’m not sure how different that is from deliberately putting civilian settlements in a hotly contested buffer zone though.
Bro you are cracked.
This is a claim regularly made by the IDF. It seems fairly likely and I haven’t seen any evidence to the contrary.
“I have 0 evidence in either direction but the propaganda I like tells me X”
How are people who are getting bombed supposed to provide you evidence to the contrary? Why is it not on the State of Israel to prove that their targets have military personnel inside before they kill the civilians?
Take away the fact that Israel routinely bombs news buildings, ya know the buildings with the cameras and networks capable of providing evidence, what kind of evidence could they even provide that would make you say “no I’m wrong”?
Lets say the people in AP building ran around and took pictures before the bombing and showed no one in Hamas gear before the bombing, people would just shift the goalposts and say “well they could take off their military gear and hide as civilians”, “oh those pictures could be fake”, “how do we know they were even taken at the right time?”
As soon as you’ve accepted the premise that Israel can kill civilians first and ask questions later you’ve lost the plot.
I don’t think you finished reading my comment in the first place but I’ll expand on it.
Terrorists/freedom fighters/insurgents (whatever you want to call them) regularly have their operations in civilian buildings; the IRA did it, the country formerly known as the 13 colonies did it, Boxers did it, ETA did it… It’s just standard MO because they have no choice.
I don’t think you finished reading my comment in the first place but I’ll expand on it.
I did I just snapped because I think it’s stupid to excuse war crimes without evidence. It has probably happened in the past, it will probably happen in the future but to take Israels word unconditionally is giving Israel a blank check to commit war crimes. Israel gets $3.8 billion a year from the US, they should not be launching a single missile until they have evidence there is at least one member of the opposing side (or their equipment) where it’s gonna land.
Coming back today, yeah I appreciate the latter half of your first comment and the entirety of this one.
Yes. but any sort of resistance/guerilla movement does the exact same thing. From the American revolution to the French Resistance.
Israel is going to wipe out Hamas.
Honest question: to Israelis that want to see this, what does this mean? forcing the Palestinians out completely to Jordan and Lebanon?
don’t get me wrong, it’d be awesome if you could just magically zap the terrorists, but that’s not reality. so what’s the end game with this kind of rhetoric?
I just want to be clear, I’m stating my opinion, no one else’s, it might be the consensus in Israel, it might be not. I’ve always been against a lot of my country and military actions, especially against Palestinians, never saw them as enemies, even as a soldier I spoke out if something seemed wrong to me, even in operation protective edge I’ve been told that I shouldn’t live here if I care so much about the Palestinian, this was told to me by a soldier that I was carrying food and water for, what I’m saying is that I’m not some right wing hateful nut job when I say: I don’t give a shut anymore, I don’t give a shit where the gazan will go, I don’t give a shit if they don’t have food, I don’t give a shit about any of this, In 24 hours, three friends have lost half of their families, two friends have been held hostages, one friend kidnapped to Gaza, presumably dead. As much as a pacifist I tried to be my whole life, right now I want nothing but the sea to be painted red by the blood of the people who did this and supported it, and quite honestly, when this is all over, I want our elected officials to be rounded up, faced against the wall and be shot.
I am sorry you lost several loved ones. I can’t imagine what that must be like.
Hopefully, while grieving, you won’t be stuck in anger for much longer. The people that you have lost wouldn’t want children to pay the price for your country’s revenge.
Of course you want Hamas to be brought to justice, but there are many people like you and I in Gaza that are just trying to live a life free of violence. Hamas might kill indiscriminately, but they are a terrorist/radical group. A country must not sink to their level, especially a democratic one.
Nothing will make it easier for Hamas to find new recruits than large numbers of people in Gaza who are grieving their lost ones: and so the cycle of violence continues.
Beautifully said
Didn’t the IDF already kill the 1,500 or so terrorists who did this?
What reason do we have to believe that the thousands of people who are currently getting bombed had anything to do with this at all, beyond having the misfortune of living in Gaza?
The fact that hostages are in Gaza, so obviously a significant number of the raiders were able to make it back with those poor folks in tow
The current estimates are between 100 and 150 hostages. A single armed person can transport several unarmed hostages. They’ll be tied up and consist mostly of people who don’t put up much resistance (since those people tend to get killed rather than taken hostage).
Even if we’re generous and assume one guard per hostage, that’s at most 150 terrorists that made it back to Gaza.
Just answering to the first question: As of today, according to Israeli media, that number is quite off.
I haven’t been able to find new numbers today. A bunch of articles restating the number of Israelis killed by Hamas and a few talking about estimates for numbers killed in Gaza but I haven’t found updated info on how many of the Hamas terrorists died in Israel.
Well, the fact that most of them went back to Gaza makes me doubt that previously quoted number.
In any case, I hope Hamas gets an obliterating hit and can’t recover, and that Israel remembers that not all Gaza is Hamas, so this is over as soon as possible with no more innocent lives lost.
the fact that most of them went back to Gaza
They did? I hadn’t read that. Do you know where I can learn more about that?
Good, now think about how the Palestinians felt from the beginning.
If you want you can read more about the Deir Yassin massacre, Abu Shusha massacre, Lyda and Ramle massacres, Al Dawayima massacre, and lastly but definitely not least the Sabra and Shatila Massacre.
There’s gems such as:
“On 14th April at 10 a.m. I visited Silwan village accompanied by a doctor and a nurse from the Government Hospital in Jerusalem and a member of the Arab Women’s Union. We visited many houses in this village in which approximately some two to three hundred people from Deir Yassin village are housed. I interviewed many of the women folk in order to glean some information on any atrocities committed in Deir Yassin but the majority of those women are very shy and reluctant to relate their experiences especially in matters concerning sexual assault and they need great coaxing before they will divulge any information. The recording of statements is hampered also by the hysterical state of the women who often break down many times whilst the statement is being recorded. There is, however, no doubt that many sexual atrocities were committed by the attacking Jews. Many young schoolgirls were raped and later slaughtered. Old women were also molested. One story is current concerning a case in which a young girl was literally torn in two. Many infants were also butchered and killed. I also saw one old woman who gave her age as one hundred and four who had been severely beaten about the head with rifle butts. Women had bracelets torn from their arms and rings from their fingers and parts of some of the women’s ears were severed in order to remove earrings.”
and
“A soldier of Kiryati Brigade captured 10 men and 2 women. All were killed except a young woman who was raped and disposed of. At the dawn of 14 May, units of Giv’ati brigade assaulted Abu Shusha village. Fleeing villagers were shot on sight. Others were killed in the streets or axed to death. Some were lined up against a wall and executed. No men were left; women had to bury the dead.”
and
Israeli writer Amos Kenan, who served as a platoon commander of the 82d Regiment of the Israeli Army brigade that conquered Lydda told The Nation on 6 February 1989: “At night, those of us who couldn’t restrain ourselves would go into the prison compounds to fuck Arab women. I want very much to assume, and perhaps even can, that those who couldn’t restrain themselves did what they thought the Arabs would have done to them had they won the war.”[85] Kenan said he heard of only one woman who complained. A court-martial was arranged, he said, but in court, the accused ran the back of his hand across his throat, and the woman decided not to proceed.[85] The allegations were given little consideration by the Israeli government. Agriculture Minister Aharon Zisling told the Cabinet on 21 July: “It has been said that there were cases of rape in Ramle. I could forgive acts of rape but I won’t forgive other deeds, which appear to me much graver. When a town is entered and rings are forcibly removed from fingers and jewellery from necks—that is a very grave matter.”
and
Ben-Gurion, quoting General Avner, briefly referred in his war diary to the ‘rumours’ that the army had ‘slaughtered 70–80 persons.’ One version of what happened was provided by an Israeli soldier to a Mapam member, who transmitted the information to Eliezer Peri, the editor of the party daily Al HaMishmar and a member of the party’s Political Committee. The party member, Sh. (possibly Shabtai) Kaplan, described the witness as ‘one of our people, an intellectual, 100 percent reliable.’ The village, wrote Kaplan, had been held by Arab ‘irregulars’ and was captured by the 89th Battalion without a fight. ‘The first [wave] of conquerors killed about 80 to 100 men, women, and children. The children they killed by breaking their heads with sticks. There was not a house without dead,’ wrote Kaplan. Kaplan’s informant, who arrived immediately afterwards in the second wave, reported that Arab men and women who remained were then shut away in houses ‘without food or water.’ Sappers arrived to blow up the houses.
One commander ordered a sapper to put two old women in a certain house … and to blow up the house with them. The sapper refused … The commander then ordered his men to put the old women in the house and the evil deed was done. One soldier boasted that he had raped a woman and then shot her. One woman, with a newborn baby in her arms, was employed to clean the courtyard where the soldiers ate. She worked a day or two. In the end they shot her and her baby.
and I am not going to even go into what happened in Sabra and Shatila. Just know that just like in Deir Yassin, Zionists and Jewish extremists reneged on peace pacts. The reason why both of these massacres were so devastating was explicitly because the Palestinian people demilitarized themselves in exchange for peace and co-existence. However, we all know how that played out.
Now, the current people of Israel flourish off the atrocities of the Zionists and Jewish extremists. Rather than recognizing the war crimes as they were, many try to re-write history and revere war criminals as war heroes. For some, that is not even necessary because they believe that Palestinian life is below them. The verbiage that many have used to describe Palestinians is very akin to how other ethnocentric societies have described racial minorities in the past, present, or future. As for you, you stand not only on the shoulders of giants, but on the countless bodies of those who were massacred, tortured, and raped. If you cared for justice, then would it not be right to give back? If you knew that just by living in Israel, you are perpetuating the status quo, then would it not be right to at least balance it out through some form of disruption?
But no, ignoring history, you now call for violence. As we all know, violence begets violence.
don’t give a shut anymore, I don’t give a shit where the gazan will go, I don’t give a shit if they don’t have food
And much of the world does not give a shit about you or any other Israeli either. You guys have murdered far far far far far more Palestinians, innocent palestinians at that, then hamas has killed Israelis. And thats exactly why these attacks happened, thats exactly why your freinds have lost their families and been taken hostage. You yourself and every other person in Israel are to blame for this and supported this. If you want the blood to flow start with your own
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Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Hamas the political body that is in control of the Gaza strip?
They sent a military force to go kill civilians. I don’t know how much of Israel’s motivation is to take the Gaza strip back and move Palestinian civilians around, but killing that many civilians has definitely put Hamas into “fuck around and find out” territory. At the very least I would expect that Israel will not stop until Hamas is no longer a political entity in Gaza.
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Well hopefully a new government, but who knows
Nuremberg scenario if we’re lucky.
It turned Germany from antisemitism central into Europe’s strongest economy and democracy, at least up until the AfD started trying to weasel the nazi shit back in.
Problem is this isn’t the allies making the call here, it’s Israel, who’s a lot more interested in just crippling Gaza industrially and militarily to the point that rocket assembly and launching become an impossibility, so either absolutely flattening the place, or permanently occupying the place until Fatah or another faction that’s not as batshit insane as Hamas are able to pretend to be in control while basically being a paper government where Israel’s “security concerns” clash with Gaza’s sovereignty.
Yeah, Hamas basically destroyed themselves with this shit. The rest of the world watched their warcriming and said “You know, perhaps these aren’t the folks that peace can be reached with, go nuts Israel, bomb the shit out of them.”
Who’s gonna stand up for Hamas at this point, russia and iran? pfft… get fucked. Any plausible case for their victimhood got lost when they went down this road.
So far the Israeli government under Netanyahu has mostly done things to strengthen Hamas, a more radical and violent (but controlled by the vastly stronger Israeli military, or so they thought) group in power in Gaza was deemed beneficial since it prevents the formation of “reasonable”, anti-violent advocates for Palestinian liberation. Didn’t really work out that well I guess.
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I don’t think this will strengthen Netanyahu. People will want blood for the biggest intelligence failure since 9/11.
In fact, this is worse than 9/11, at least there it was a relatively small number of people involved. How on earth does Mossad miss thousands of armed militants, vehicles, guns, logistics and planning for an attack of this scale? The only two options are intentionally keeping this quiet or incompetence at a breathtaking scale. Neither of those two options are good for Netanyahu.
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That remains to be seen. In situations like this people tend to either double down on, or turn against their leaders. I think the dust needs to settle a little more before we know which way the wind is blowing for Netanyahu. My hunch is that you are probably right, at least in the short-term.
Didn’t really work out that well I guess.
No it didn’t, and the Israelis know it.
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Hopefully the regular Palestinians survive with out much damage.
Based on the last 50+ years of history of conflict between these 2, I can’t be optimistic that your hopes will come true.
I don’t think they want to wipe them out. The government of izrael needs Hamas for their own selfish reasons. Without a proper enemy, a proper “them”, such a fascist government like Izrael cannot exist
I don’t think the Israeli voters are going to find that acceptable. One of the good things about democracy.
But we will see.
I’m just hoping the least amount of izraeli and palestinians’ innocents die.
Given how the conflict has been going… its looking fucking bleak.
Why are you misspelling Israel?
It’s spelt with z in my language. Did not mean to intentionally misspell, phone did that for me
The reports I’ve read claim that around 1,000 Hamas terrorist entered Israel. The IDF claims to have recovered the bodies of about 1,500 terrorists inside Israel. Given that this is an active conflict, it’s not surprising that the numbers don’t line up but they’re of the same order of magnitude.
Since Hamas has hostages it’s clear that at least some of those terrorists made it back to Gaza. It’s also clear that the IDF has, by now, killed the vast majority of the terrorists who carried out these acts.
So who is currently being targeted by IDF ordinance?
Hamas
Well given that the average age in Palestine is 18 I would guess children
@nednobbins Palestinian children, as usual
considering gaza is 40% kids under 14… children.
If Israel don’t like Hamas they shouldn’t have created them
Meanwhile, lemmy.ml mods are worried about banning people for pointing out that US revolutionaries didn’t indiscriminately murder families. This is the fediverse’s mask off moment.
How does one bad instance that has been full of tankies for quite sometime make this the “fediverse mask off moment”???
If you browse all from a federated instance, you will see plenty of lemmy.ml threads filled with all manner of disgusting appetite for cruelty, because the mods are banning any and all pushback. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it, this will be (and to a large extent already is) associated with the fediverse sooner or later, considering it is the “main” dev instance, and one of the largest communities. This has just been a particularly egregious example of - again - the main, high profile dev instance, pretty openly tolerating horrific things while removing even the most mild, reasonable dissent.
If you don’t believe me, just browse the mod log for the past few hours.
Note that “the Fediverse” consists of multiple platforms. Not just Lemmy. So no, this will not be a Fediverse mask-off moment. Perhaps a Lemmy mask-off moment, but definitely not the entire Fediverse.
Exactly. Mastodon is doing just fine, depending on who you follow.
100% - the developers themselves seem to be openly pro-terrorist. How can any person support lemmy, at all, if that is the case?
I am very disappointed in lemmy today.
If you check the modlog for this community on LW, you may notice a removal of a top post for the mediabiasfactcheck of the source… which apparently places it too close to center with no failed fact checks, or something.
Isn’t this supposed to work with up votes and down votes?
And yet, they and instances like Hexbear are still federated on certain instances.
Nobody holds yiur hand and tells you who to hate. You have to grow up and exercise your own critical skills to work out who you agree and disagree with. Hexbear and Lemmygrad are tutorial-level obvious. Lemmy.ml started more normal but seems to have drifted their way.
So get on an instance that more or less aligns with your views and dig out the block button. I use Sync on my phone and it lets you block an instance entirely.
why support developers who are obviously pro-terrorist? it’s not as simple as find another instance - it’s more like … leave lemmy.
Yes, that’s your prerogative. I wish some non-tankies would fork the software.
I’m done. people need to know what bad juju is really driving lemmy…it’s not peace love unity respect. it’s pro-death sqaud.
I posted a comment about how the kids are getting the worst of it all and got deleted.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Early on Saturday morning, Hamas targeted Nova music festival, a techno rave in the desert near the border with Gaza.
Videos shared on social media and by Israeli news outlets showed dozens of festival-goers running through an open field as gunshots rang out.
British citizen Jake Marlowe, 26, a carpenter by trade, was employed as a security guard at the Nova music festival just six kilometres east of Gaza, which was in full swing Saturday when Hamas launched the biggest attack on Israel in decades.
He is among dozens of festival attendees who are missing, kidnapped or presumed dead, multiple witnesses and family members told The Independent
Videos from Gaza started appearing online on Saturday, including one showing a young woman Noa Argamani being abducted by Hamas militants as she rode with her boyfriend on a motorcycle.
On Sunday, another video showed the mutilated body of one woman, identified as German tattoo artist Shani Louk by her friends, being paraded around in her underwear around Gaza.
The original article contains 473 words, the summary contains 166 words. Saved 65%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Absolutely horrfying. This whole thing is just so dapressing.
Netanyahu is entering the “find out” part of his plan of “fuck around and find out.” Maybe having a music festival minutes away from a genocide wasn’t the best idea?
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A quick scroll of the comments doesn’t provide the answer as to why they thought this music festival was a good idea, especially considering that it’s located at the border near Gaza. Furthermore, how did Israel not see this coming and take extra security measures to protect them?
i think the most intelligent posture about all of this is to take both the palestinians and the israelis as ultra-nationalist, bloodthirsty beasts and do not take side for any of them
We shouldn’t be discounting entire peoples like that. Nobody is born a nationalist. Every citizen in both countries deserves to live a life free of terror or strife, and instead they were manipulated against each other by a small number of evil people.
Nationalism is a poison and we should be seeking to cure the afflicted, both for their own sake and the sake of all of us.
I don’t condone the violence of Israel as a state. Hamas clearly consists of individual actors behaving like isis terrorists, therefore I don’t agree. Also this gives me major Bataclan, Paris flashbacks.
like, idk, i would pick side for palestine before, but after this all my goodwill for the palestinian cause is gone, but i also would not pick side for the israelis because they dont have any reagrd for the lives of the palestinians, i only hope that this will end up soon and that no nuclear weapons will be used
the most intelligent posture is surely to take the side of the oppressed and the innocent which obviously will include a great deal of both Palestinian and Israeli human beings.
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