I am glad to announce you guys that number of tankies here is below 4% according to up/downvotes
It’s low enough to know them by their usernames and shame them every time they post something
As long as they’re genuine and civil about their opinions, I encourage a space for that discussion. If it’s disingenuous trolling or crude propaganda then it becomes a problem.
The general public framing of the war and Russian “denazification” messaging has basically broke criticism of the situation in the mainstream. It’s even to the point where you can support Ukrainian people and clearly identify Russia as the aggressor, but if you rationalize how this war didn’t come out of nowhere people’s alarm bells go up, and immediately you are scrutinized whether you’re a Russian troll or not. (There is no measure of sincerity online.)
The shocking thing for me is how quickly people revel in violence the second there’s a moral justification for it. Like you see closeups of injured Russians getting grenades dropped on them and see their bodies exploding, and it’s almost treated as a moral duty to view this as entertainment, consuming it on the same social media feeds you would memes and friend’s family photos.
I am, sadly, guilty of the last part, but to my defence I followed the beginning of this war almost religiously and the brutality the russian soldiers was beyond horrific.
They had absolutely zero regard for human life in any form or way.I’ve also heard countless recordings of phone calls between soldiers and families back in Russia and while not all are equally bad, many were sould wrenching to listen to.
I can’t excuse cheering for the loss of life, even when brainwashed, but I did and felt comfort knowing that there was one invader leas to wreck havock upon the Ukranian population.
I would reckon many were in the same boat as myself.
The issue is outside of any “true” morality, if you were in Russia chances are you’d be doing the exact same for the other side, since moral justifications for violence can be constructed and consented to on behalf of the public through many methods. Retribution violence is propagandized heavily in the US, in media and civic life. Some people gleefully imagine themselves inflicting violence with their firearm of choice if only provided with the right circumstance. So all this becomes a matter of dividing people by who is morally granted to inflict the violence they’ve been conditioned to view as justified, perpetuating the cycle. Viewing history as a river of blood and ignoring the banks of the river where people live their lives.
I followed this war for first 2 months only, i am neither on Russian or Ukrainian side.
I am in country which doesn’t belong to American or Russian side. Except “the world” (NATO+2 other boot kissers) every other nation citizen knows that this war started due to bullying faced by a nation constantly being surrounded by weapons of “the world” nations. It didn’t come out of no where, ukarine became the victim. Other than “the world” countries nobody believes Ukraine stance to continue is any form of stand against evil, everybody knows what Americans and NATO did to middle eastern people, they carpet bombed entire villages couple days after 9/11 and everybody enjoyed that horror show while drinking beers in pubs and eating crisps, and we were supposed to believe all those murdered by carpet bombing were terrorists; all non-“the world” countries know what is happening. Before internet bullies jump on me, I am also not from middle east.
Initially it was clear in first 2 weeks that Russian soldiers were very well behaved and didn’t touch any civilian, Russian troops were bullied and harassed by local civilians, stones were thrown at them on video and no retaliation was caught on any camera whatsoever. One can argue whether those Russian soldiers should be there or not, but they were there already, can’t change it. Memes were being made that Russian soldiers are weak girls who can’t do anything, their non-aggressive stance was seen as weakness
Later came American and NATO donated ordinance, which turned invasion into bloody unnecessary war.
Now as a third party national with no interest in who wins the “trophy”, I find it shameful that Internet warriors are saying things like Ukraine is winning or Russia is winning. Internet is full of bull… Ukraine which was once very beautiful country with wonderful free of cost education for all/foreigners is an absolute ruin, they are winning nothing, no matters what the outcome is.
No matters how much I respect bravery of Ukrainians, It clearly is a war being fought for American ego, and victim is every Ukraine resident, no matters how much nationalist pride they try to show online or offline for anyone’s “bravery”, Ukraine has advanced backwards towards history; whatever the result Ukraine has lost big time, the longer war goes, the more they lose.
Please stop this non-sense war, nobody is giving you weapons because they believe you are fighting for freedom, if you believed in freedom, you would join NAM movement like the non-“the world” countries.
Im glad to reading this,
TY
If it’s disingenuous trolling or crude propaganda then it becomes a problem.
That’s what tankies do almost by definition. You’re talking about the rare breed of communists who aren’t tankies.
It’s not rare. There are just a lot of loud, terminally online people on Lemmy.
At this point, there is very little room for a discussion that hasn’t already been settled though. Anyone who doesn’t see Ukraine as the victim and Russia as the complete aggressor is already a fool (who if they haven’t understood by now, will they ever?) or a troll.
I don’t think the issue for criticism is whether they’re a victim of Russia’s aggression, they were clearly invaded. The issue is why they, as a victim in this context, benefit from the full weight of western support, whereas other victims are basically ignored, or even explained away as something expected and “unfortunate.” If you sincerely support Ukrainian people you have to realize they are not being supported by the west simply because they are good deserving people, else we’d have sent weapons to many other groups in even more dire situations, the names of which aren’t even in our public conscious. If you truly support victimized people you have to go far beyond the messaging from western governments, and it will extend far beyond borders and national/religious identities. Just look at the way Kurds were symbolized in the war against ISIS, and what eventually happened there. People had the Kurdish flag on their social media profiles, they were the moderate independent democratic state in the midst of extremists, then they were no longer a useful political tool in this context.
The reason propaganda has been so successful in this war, is that any criticism of the western powers is taken as criticism of people in Ukraine and akin to support of Russia. Even though, as we we’ve seen time and time again, these institutions change their tune and we can expect western Ukrainian regions to at some point becomes yesterday’s news, just like Crimea was in 2014.
” If you sincerely support Ukrainian people you have to realize they are not being supported by the west simply because they are good deserving people, else we’d have sent weapons to many other groups in even more dire situations
its pretty clear though the reasons for ukraine support in the west isnt purely because ukraine is our best mate, its because of the implications if they were to fall, pretty sure even ukraine is well aware of this. its simply an outcome that needs to be avoided at all costs other wise europe is going to be in for a hell of a decade
I think it’s pretty obvious but I also see a lot of social media and discussions in the news media that basically focuses on displaying that you personally support Ukraine, westerners adopt slogans to identify themselves online as part of the good side as a sort of moral branding. It’s not that this in inherently bad but it doesn’t acknowledge why they support Ukraine, and not for example, subjugated populations everywhere around the world. It’s like your identity with regards to the war in Ukraine is seen as a symbol, however the only reason why it’s so important in the present day context is because of the broader implications that you mention. These broader implications are not linked to or require the presence of Ukrainian flags on a percentage of people’s social media profiles for instance, or frequency of “Slava Ukraine” comments online. So I think the line here is blurred between strategic and geopolitical implications, and people’s own moral support of the war, with the latter being viewed as inherently related to the former when it’s actually decoupled from it.
The heart of your inquiry is why does Ukraine get such aid and support while others don’t? To me the answer goes beyond the, “well there’s got to be something in it for us” cynical perspective and boils simply down to just how clear-cut the righteous side is from the wrong side.
In Syria, there was the FSA, sure. But this was muddied with the risk of supporting more radical factions. Additionally their factions were more or less headless, too. The world knows Zelenskyy and what he stands for, precisely.
So if you can give me a scenario where (a) The line between right and wrong are this clear and (b) The conflict is to the massive scale that is Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, then I’m all ears.
In that respect there is discussion to be had, I suppose. But does this change anything? Even you agree Russia is still 100% in the wrong, that we should support Ukraine. What irks you is alleged inconsistency which I think is beyond the scope of what we’re talking about here.
It is logical to identify as “whataboutism” criticism of “Western Powers” for actions unrelated to Ukraine in the context of a discussion about Ukraine, simply because the only thing about what’s being discussed in such a take is the saying bad things about the allies of one side.
Maybe it is whataboutism, or maybe that was not the intention of the person making that criticism in that context, but it’s logical to deem it so because it’s the explanation that makes most sense for a person making such a comment in such a context.
However such criticism is most definitelly warranted and makes sense in plenty of other contexts.
Also sometimes there really are no other contexts in which to point something out: as somebody has pointed out elsewhere under this post, in the West (including Lemmy, which seems to mainly have users from the “West”) there is quite a skewed and uneven coverage of the plight of Ukranians versus other plights right now in the World, and you hardly have a good context to talk about that when there are no discussions about that (it would be nice if we had some discussions about just how decayed Journalism in most of the Press is, which would lend itself to point such things out)
I don’t really agree with “whataboutism” because it can be applied to dismiss any inconvenient comparison and paint the one who raised it as a bad actor, even if it’s a valid point, without having to explain why it’s not a valid comparison. Comparing one thing with something else and noting the differences is a valid method of criticism.
Sure, merelly saying “whataboutism” is often used as you describe, mainly because like so many other words its meaning has been seriously mangled through misuse.
It does, however, make sense to ponder on the logic of pulling something wholly unrelated to the actual situation being discussed and posting it: since such “arguments” by association do not make sense in that context, it’s logical for those on the other side to then consider further elements seeking a reason until finding one that does make sense, which is typically an attempt at holding a position in a discussion after having exhausted actual logical arguments, something which itself would indiciate that the person using such “arguments” doesn’t really hold that position on logic.
You don’t need to label it as “whataboutism” to recognized an argument by association as the falacy it is, it’s just that using the word “whataboutism” is (or, maybe, used to be) a good shortcut instead of all the text above I just used to explain the rationalle behind the use of the argument by association falacy.
😭🤧 Tankies get hankies. 😭🤧
Cancelling on Lemmy now? Don’t make it Twitter pls.
I’ll cancel tankies and nazis all I fucking want.
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It is pretty revealing how you immediately and uncritically identified with the “tankies and nazis” appellation.
“left terrorists” 😂a term i haven’t heard in a while
Next will come Satanists and Marilyn Mason 's fans
unfair cancelling ≠ being shamed for supporting a nazi-like regime slaughtering and raping civilians
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I’m not a bot either beep beep
Appeasement will only strengthen Russia.
Nope. It will only sttengthen Putin.
Russia has all the power - they can end the war as soon as they pull their shitbirds out of Ukraine & Crimea.
And hell, get the fuck out of Georgia while we’re discussing. Go home, sign up for a 12 step program and figure out your fucking lives while awaiting the warcrimes charges.
As Churchill said, Nations that go down fighting rise again, but those who surrendered timely were finished. Slava Ukraini
Did he say that before or after causing the Bengal famine of 1943?
He had nothing to do with that. The famine was largely caused by natural disasters, crop disease, Japanese invasion of Burma, and incompetent local beurocrats.
I would also imagine that he was a little busy with the impending fall of Europe in 1943 given the Americans did not join the war until 1944. I also looked at additional accounts and it appears the local government didn’t even declare a state of emergency, so how would he have known?
given the Americans did not join the war until 1944
What? Do you think D-day was the first day of war for Americans? It wasn’t.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_campaigns_during_World_War_II
Or that Europe’s “fall” was pending in 1943. France had already been taken over by then, while the Battle of Britain had secured England’s airspace, and Russia was pushing back in the east. Germany had seen its high water mark at least two years before.
There was a rather Infamous Day a few years prior to that…best not feed the trolls I suppose
I wouldn’t trust an article from providence on this matter.
Care to provide an alternative then?
But you said “caused”
When would he be the cause, then? When he personally burns down granaries? I think if you were warned your actions might harm millions of people and you ignore those warnings you are a cause. Perhaps not the only one, but your choice is part of the problem.
France went down surrendering yet rose again - both during WWII.
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Czechoslovakia then.
Slava Palestine!
Don’t bring these dumb analogies to this conflict. While Israel definitely acts towards Palestine the way Russia acts towards its former colonies, Hamas itself acts like Russian backed “people’s republic”.
This will lead to radicalization of Israel’s politics. The date was chosen to have the maximum chance of shutting down any positive resolution around Palestine.
In other words, this is not an attempt to free Palestine, it’s an attempt to set the world on fire.
I have a hard time believing that the Israeli intelligence community didn’t see this coming. Mossad created the fucking Stuxned and can’t even see bunch of militants coming to their borders. The only person benefitting from this is Netanyahu as he may use this war as an excuse to further consolidate his power.
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Or they could have, I don’t know, agreed to a two state solution? If Palestine stops fighting, Israel will colonize them through their settlements. They’ll probably colonize them even if they fight, and the West will look back on the destruction of Palestine as a tragic oopsie that “we can’t do anything about now.” The blame for the violence is on Israel at this point, as the current government antagonizes Palestinians for what little land they still control. At the same time, Bibi works to take away the voice of even Israelis, turning what should be a more secular democracy into a theocratic dictatorship.
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Absolutely not.
That situation is way more complex than the one in Ukraine.
… thats a very incorrect attempt at sparknotes
Don’t their borders overlap?
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I feel bad for the average Ivan who gets shoved into the meat grinder, except I think those are all sunflower food now and it’s the dregs. The dregs of a brutalist society…
Slava Ukraini! It’s good to see all the weapons we built for this exact purpose being used properly, Vlad is being impaled on our 30 year old dusty stuff
With zelensky sending his support to Israel, who is also facing terror at their door step, this is an interesting take…
When your enemy labels you a Nazi to rationalize invasion, it helps refute the claim.
By sending support to fascist israel?
How the heck does supporting Israel prove you are not a Nazi? Your contemporary Nazi loves Israel.
What do you expect when Iran is making the drones that are raining down on his country?
It’s an old Israeli saying. Since that’s daily life living there.
To be honest I don’t give a fuck either way. We are going to have the WW3 in a decade at the most. China is preparing to become sanction proof taking notes from Russian fuck ups and dumping US dollars and bringing back anything and everything they can to the mainland. Taiwan will be the new Poland!
And if the US continue to act like they are in control we all gonna wake up to a ruined world thanks to this pissing contest between 3 counties while we are part any of them.
This isn’t going to change anyone’s mind. The pro-Russia folk believe that Ukraine as a nation never existed in the first place, so they are fine with below option. The top one is just wishful thinking - why would they stop fighting? They stand nothing to gain from this and they’d lose everything they fought so hard to gain.
I’ll get down-voted yet again, but I’ll keep saying this: If you care about Ukraine - join the war, send in the troops. Otherwise - shut the fuck up. Spamming the flag everywhere does not help. Sending weapons doesn’t really turn the tides either. Cheering Ukrainian soldiers into a suicidal counter-offensive - well that’s an especially fucked up thing to do.
Yea, I agree that countries should send troops to help Ukraine but I disagree with the idea that sending weapons doesn’t help. If Russia conquers Ukraine it will just be another Afganistan or Israel where Ukraine will fight Russian occupation as some terrorist group and Russia will employ what it always does: ethnic cleansing.
Also Moldova is next in line for a Russian invasion so there will also be that in a few years or however long it takes for Russia to recover from this.
I disagree with the idea that sending weapons doesn’t help
Well, that’s why I said “doesn’t really turn the tides” instead of “not helping”. Of course the weapons are helpful, but they are not a solution. Ukraine is outnumbered 3.5 to 1, outgunned and in much deeper hole, economically. Surely an F-16 is nice, but they won’t be able to down 3.5 Russian jets each, and, even if they did, they’d still need like 800 of them. HIMARS surely is painful, but it’s not 3.5 times more efficient than BM-30. And so goes to every equipment sent.
Russia will employ what it always does: ethnic cleansing
Oh god no, what source do you even have for that claim? The only case I can think of is Crimean Tatar relocation which was quite a fucked up thing to do, but Stalin’s actions are largely condemned in modern Russia. Even *IF * the Russians were to go ethnic cleansing, it would definitely be in Chechnya and Ingushetia first, not in Ukraine. Because, even in the eyes of the most hardline Z folk, Ukraine is not a rabid dog to be put down, it’s more like a dipshit younger brother who deserves his ass getting belted.
The weapons have reversed the tide though, Russia’s invasion has been ground to a halt and ever reversed quite a bit.
Putin has mentioned several times that he wants to return the glory of the soviet era. Also it absolutely is not condemned but glorified, I live next to Russia, we get their state media here.
As for the ethnic cleansings other than the Tatars and Greeks in Crimea: Koreans in the eastern regions of Russia, Chechens, Ingush, Karapapaks, Karachays, Balkars, Karelians and Meskhetian Turks. I’m sure I’m forgetting a few though, there are too many to remember. Also some of the largest mass graves in recent history were found in the regions of Ukraine where Russia was pushed out.
What gives any arbitrary country a mandate to exist though? We recognize that plenty of other social institutions are transient. Nobody demanded a massive international intervention to continue the existence of the Whig Party or the Studebaker Corporation. Why are countries unique and special? Also, this seems like a very modern thing: nobody is demanding we bring back Tanganyika or unwind German unification.
I get the desire to preserve the Ukranian culture and community. But you don’t need a sovereign nation for that: compare the re-establishment of the Welsh language and culture, for example.
Would the population have been better off-- at least in the “not exploded” sense-- by backing down with a quick surrender in exchange for some “we’ll formally tolerate your cultural differences” legal concessions? I’m sure at this point, it’s impractical to negotiate to that, because there’s too much bloodshed and burnt bridges on both sides, but it seemed like it was never even on the table: the Western world decided an independent Ukraine had to exist even if everyone involved knew it was going to be a very painful and expensive endeavour to keep it.
One of the key differences to other instances is that Ukrainian culture was not really tolerated in the USSR, and definitely not in the imperialistic cute of Russia today. Rather, Russia learned from the demise of the USSR that it’s better to remove cultural and societal differences within its nation. And it’s going the same route as other empires have in the past and are doing today. Enforcing the use of its language, forcibly educating the youth in Russian culture and schools, often by literally abducting them from their Ukrainian homes and relocating them to Russia into Russian families. Kidnapping a people’s children is literally one of the five acts that make a genocide, according to the UN genocide convention from 1948.
There are many examples to show that putting peace above all else is dangerous. Using your example, the Welsh were violently suppressed and exploited for centuries by the English, following a similar scheme. The Welsh language was forbidden to teach, Welsh traditions were replaced by English, and power of autonomy was transferred to the English. Nowadays less than 20% of the Welsh can speak their language, and that is after the “resurgence” and it being allowed to be taught again.
Other examples are Native Americans, the Armenian genocide, Czech Sudetenland, Poland, oh, and remember what China is doing in Xinjiang? All of them posed no or little violent resistance in exchange for promises of peace and cultural autonomy. It rarely takes more than a few months before contracts with powerless people are broken.
Nations are just figments of imagination, but are an expression of communal will of a number of people. Modern ( as in last two centuries) concepts of human rights revolve around the freedom of people to choose how to live their lives. We usually consider it admirable if people are allowed to freely live their chosen cultures and tradition. We also consider it proper that people are allowed to choose what kind of society they want to live in/migrate to. We also grant asylum to those forcibly prevented from living their way of life and being persecuted in their home nation.
Nations are a construct allowing specific sets of societal rules to be applied to a large populace. An internationally recognized nation is also considered integrally protected, even if one nation might not agree with the internal societal rules of another country. These global base rules are very bare bones, but they are one of the big reasons we all get to live in the era dubbed “long peace”. Yes, there’s still wars and ugly conflicts, but at least there has been no major total war involving superpowers. Even the Ukraine war is luckily still limited in scope. Were Russia to unleash their full military might, it quickly would devolve into a humanitarian disaster not seen since the world war.
Why does the arbitrary nature of countries favor the invader though? What about the argument that Russia is an arbitrary country that doesn’t need to violently expand into neighbouring countries?
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I’m going to assume that you’re arguing in good faith and aren’t just a troll.
I myself am very anti-war, but I tend to take a more practical standpoint, because in order to avoid war, both sides must work at peace, not just one.
There’s a few problems with your line of thinking.
For one, you suggest that Russia formally agreeing to tolerate Ukrainian culture would be enough, but suposing Ukraine did back down on that condition, how could they possibly trust Russia to stick to their word once any bargaining power they had is gone, especially since Russia has previously recognised Ukraine as a sovereign nation and had no problem ignoring their own word on that.
That brings me to problem two, or modern day notion of nations is relatively recent, but it does seem to work. Before the world wars, there was always borders changing and this was seen as normal. But since at least world war II this has changed, nowadays nations choose to recognise other nations right to exist with a given set of borders, this is a fragile system and if we simply allow countries to arbitrarily go against it without any repercussions, then why would any other country abide by it?
Also if Russia and Ukraine could agree to have Ukraine become part of Russia, I, as someone from neither country, would have nothing particularly against it, as long as it was entirely peaceful diplomacy, Russia removed that option the moment they started gathering troops near the border, because at minimum, that’s a threat.
I am no expert on the history involved here by any means, so if I have made any mistake, feel free to correct me, I’m simply thinking through the logic.
You’re a dumb fucking cunt.
Edit: I’d like to add that I hope you die today and that your pets eat your face and die from all the poison in your body, you shit eating God damn worm.
Amen
Do you want to go back to constant wars?
Recognizing countries has been a great way to stop invasions. The borders we drew might not have been perfect, but the peace generated is worthwhile
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This explains this sentiment.
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The rapist shouldn’t rape the woman, but for fucks sakes don’t pretend the woman is completely blameless for it. The rapist just wanted sex and if she hadn’t fought against it, it wouldn’t be rape
That’s you.
“Look, I just wanted to rape, you turned this into a murder”
Russia just wanted to occupy Ukraine.
Ooookay buddy
So you think if one country wants to occupy another country, they should be allowed to without any resistance? How does that make any sense… would you be okay with some foreign country invading and occupying your homeland?
When one side doesn’t really want to negotiate (hint: it’s Russia), you have no choice.
Attack a sovereign country under the guise of denazification (with no proof), then demand they give up several thousand square kilometers of land?
If you don’t see the flaw in that logic, lemme make it easier for you: If I was your neighbor, and started digging in your garden looking for treasures, and you wouldn’t like it, and I demanded to either keep looking for it or that you give up a meter of your garden, you’d keep fighting aswell.
Your position is: let the bully do what it wants.
What a fucking retard lol
Russia just wanted a genocide! This is Ukraine’s fault for trying to stop it!
🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭😁😂😂😂
This has to be either a troll account, or the dumbest person alive posting.
You know, I would refute your arguments, but I grew tired of arguing with trolls and tankies.
You can’t logic a retard out of an argument he didnt logic himself into.
Please move to ruzzia so you can be drafted and so we can all see you get droned in 4k
I am not for
RussiaGermany here, becauseRussiaGermany shouldn’t have did that shit, but for fuck’s sake, don’t pretend likeUkrainePoland is completely blameless for THE DEATH OF TONS OF PEOPLE INCLUDING CHILDREN.This feels familiar, somehow.
Anyway, so let’s say Ukraine folds to Russian territorial demands; what happens next? What will stop Russia from repeating the process in the future? Appeasement doesn’t work. France and the UK demonstrated this in 1938 and it how made the Reich stronger and set the stage for the USSR to dominate eastern Europe.
Oh remember this troll he keeps posting the same bullshit and gets down voted to oblivion 😂
Gonna have to invoke Poe’s Law on this one. Honestly can’t tell if it’s serious or satire.
I think for the war to end some kind of terms of peace need to be drafted and ratified by the involved parties.
It now comes down to how much war is required to achieve such a thing.
Anti war positions tend to recognize the meat grinder of conscripts is an unnecessary step and promote minimizing the amount of time it needs to run.
But I am sure there are people expecting or even outright demanding the total capitulation of a nation at war, which is a particularly brutal position to take.
