• Aidinthel@reddthat.com
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    1 year ago

    Every single study on UBI finds that it is a good idea that benefits both the recipients and society as a whole, but because it contradicts the dominant ideology it can’t be allowed to happen.

    • hamster@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      If people aren’t forced to work to live then how can I get cheap labor for my shitty business that my dad gave me?

      • WalrusDragonOnABike@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        If people have UBI, you can get away with paying less though. That’s how walmart does it; just encourage your workers to get welfare so they stay alive enough to work more

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          And that’s honestly my proposal for it. Basically, create something like UBI (my preference is NIT) that ensures everyone is over the poverty level, eliminate minimum wage, and have benefits phase out for some reasonable definition of “living wage” (say, 2x the poverty level, maybe 3x).

          Working would never make you worse off, and people wouldn’t feel obligated to take crappy jobs if the pay isn’t there.

          We could also eliminate many other forms of welfare at the same time and just increase benefits accordingly.

          • darq@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            The only benefits that I think would have to stay, are those with “unlimited” downside, like healthcare.

            UBI can potentially replace specific benefits for housing or general living expenses, but it can’t really replace healthcare.

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              Agreed, I certainly wouldn’t touch Medicare or Medicaid. I’d also probably leave unemployment insurance as is, and this would kick in afterward.

              But I think it could replace Social Security, food assistance, housing assistance, etc. And I think we could fund it by lifting the income cap on Social Security, but I’d need to run the numbers to be sure.

            • WalrusDragonOnABike@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              I’d say some disability benefits as well. Simply getting by can be more expensive when you can’t do basic tasks yourself, even if you have the best universal health care possible.

        • Facebones@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          Which we all know would happen IMMEDIATELY in lockstep with any widespread rollout of UBI, and any complaint would be met with half the country screeching “FREE MARKET REEEEEE”

            • Brawndo@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Rent Control can only have one outcome. Decreased amount of available new or renovated rentals which coupled with an ever increasing demand for housing, creates some of the housing shortages we see in larger cities today.

              UBI can be an effective way to fight poverty, and would be an even more effective way to combat poverty if we implemented a Negative Income tax whereby all welfare programs are rolled into the funding.

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                1 year ago

                The maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest revolution in history and led to an almost entirely equitable distribution of land ownership

              • darq@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Rent Control can only have one outcome. Decreased amount of available new or renovated rentals which coupled with an ever increasing demand for housing, creates some of the housing shortages we see in larger cities today.

                Only if you assume that private landlords are the only way to supply housing.

                There is no reason to assume that.

    • zephyreks@lemmy.mlOPM
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      1 year ago

      How can a society built on capital work towards the betterment of society rather than the accretion of capital?

      • fiat_lux@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Exactly. If organisations (private, public and other) had to maximise for social betterment, they would release annual reports measuring it. There might even be entire industries dedicated to auditing measurements of social betterment.

        But no, we’re stuck using a system of ‘value’ based on the prestige of owning shiny rocks and control of the areas where those shiny rocks are found. And finding new uses for things and people that aren’t the desired shiny rocks so that you may demand and acquire more shiny rocks as others in the same time duration.

        If a majority of countries can successfully ditch the gold standard and allow fiat currency - as they did a century ago, that means the world is also able to redefine what fiat currencies measure. There’s nothing actually stopping us from requiring social and environmental impact to be included in the calculation of financial valuations, except the people who have a vested interest in keeping the current equations.

        • mrnotoriousman@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          I agree with not measuring net worth but how are you planning on measuring individual societal value? That just sounds ripe for discrimination and elitism.

    • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      There was a UBI experiment in canada that was a huge success and of course the tories axed it as soon as they had the chance. Conservatives need to [extremely long bleep] … [yeah still bleeping] … … [still going] … [leeeeep] -yeah i’m going to have to redact this in post.

    • Liz@midwest.social
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      1 year ago

      I’ve yet to see a study at a scale large enough to impact the local economy. Will the results hold when everyone gets monthly cash payments, or will rent go through the roof and that’s about it?

      • chaorace@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        Kind of a weird argument, isn’t it? If we did the opposite instead, it’s not as if you’d expect rents to fall – on the contrary, rent would go up in response to the added financial burden on landlords. Setting that hypothetical aside, wouldn’t a generalized inflation of rents be an acceptable tradeoff for reducing homelessness and untethering the 50+% of young adults who still live with their parents to move and work in more economically efficient environments?

        • Liz@midwest.social
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          1 year ago

          While I actually consider multi-generational housing a good thing, let’s ignore that since the reason people aren’t moving out is financial and not social.

          The question is whether UBI is the best way to solve that problem (and others) and I have yet to see data that can be reasonably said to actually be universal for a region. The closest thing I know of is Alaska, and their oil payments are too small and their economy too remote to say much about larger payments in a larger economy.

          To me, because money has a social and psychological value to it, what works on an individual level has no guarantee to transfer to a societal level. I would be very interested to see UBI practiced on an entire economic zone, but good luck getting anyone to volunteer.

      • Shamefortheshameless@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        That’s about it. Why would anyone work for $20k/yr when they could get $12k for free? They wouldn’t. So those jobs would bump to $30k+, and a domino affect would occur. Nothing would be achieved other than the devaluing of the American dollar, which would lead to a loss of jobs, increased poverty, and guess what else - increased homelessness.