• darq@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Remember, we know how to address many of the world’s problems, including poverty, homelessness, and climate change.

    But those with capital in society choose not to.

      • variaatio@sopuli.xyz
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        1 year ago

        Like the one recent CEO saying the quiet part aloud by saying government should promote higher unemployment, since in the high employment environment employees aren’t desperate and have more demands costing him money. That employees arent feeling enough pain and despair in economy.

        • DogMuffins@discuss.tchncs.de
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          1 year ago

          To be fair, this isn’t that far away from the economic theory underlying using interest rates to manage inflation - it’s just phrased in a different way.

          • SmoothIsFast@citizensgaming.com
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            1 year ago

            That’s the problem with fractional reserve banking it’s making up money for those who lend theirs. It’s about extracting value from those who work for those who accumulate. It’s not a tbf, it’s a this is also an issue in every area of our society.

      • SevFTW@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        I recently heard it phrased like this:

        Capitalism is built on hierarchy, which means someone fundamentally NEEDS to be at the bottom. There is no way around it, someone needs to suffer.

        • DogMuffins@discuss.tchncs.de
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          1 year ago

          I don’t think that this is really true.

          If someone has “more” then yes of course someone needs to have “less”, merely by definition.

          The question is really whether those with less are living below the poverty line or living comfortably. I guess it’s a question of semantics whether “capitalism” requires people to be living below the poverty line but I don’t think it does. It’s just shitty regulations which allow wealth to become as concentrated as it has.

          Socialism in principle sounds great, but most times it’s been implemented it’s suffered from the same problem as capitalism - the people with power are greedy and use their power to manipulate and oppress the populace.

            • DerKriegs@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              German politics and energy consumption aside, I think they have the best base of knowledge for what your proposed economic model has in store for them and their allies. They had that model forced upon them, and fought for change and economic freedom. There was a freaking wall dividing their country over that.

              Don’t shitpost on good discussion please.

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                1 year ago

                They had that model forced upon them, and fought for change and economic freedom.

                East germans, especially women and lgbt people, lost a lot of practical rights during reunification

          • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
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            1 year ago

            Socialism in principle sounds great, but most times it’s been implemented it’s suffered from the same problem as capitalism - the people with power are greedy and use their power to manipulate and oppress the populace.

            This is true, the “dictatorship of the proletariat” is self-contradictory and impossible IMHO. Because as soon as a member of the proletariat is a dictator, they are now no longer a member of the proletariat.

            Now you don’t need a dictator, you can enact socialist policies democratically. This is very slow and kind of difficult, because the capitalists will lobby and fight so hard against it, and you need to maintain public support.

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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              1 year ago

              That isnt what dictatorship of the proletariat means. It means that the former bourgeoisie are temporarily politically disenfranchised from proletarian democracy

        • TheSambassador@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          But if we raised the bottom up enough, it wouldn’t really matter if they were on the bottom. Many people would be happy if they had a stable place to live, food, healthcare, and freedom, and many don’t really need or even want “more” all the time. The problem is the vast differences in wealth and ownership.

          • SevFTW@feddit.de
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            1 year ago

            That’s a fair point. But in a world that values money above all else, that’s not just a divide in wealth and ownership but a divide in power.

          • Malfeasant@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            The problem is you can’t exploit comfortable people, so the uber rich would only be super rich, and that’s not good enough for them…

        • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Conservatism is built on hierarchy. Capitalism just says markets work and investment is gambling. You can do that and still keep everyone fed / clothed / sheltered, specifically because markets work, and can make food / clothes / shelter more plentiful. Some people having more doesn’t require private space station versus duplex cardboard box.

          Conservatives only say market failure demands misery and successful gambling means unchecked power because that’s what they always say. That’s their only conclusion, applied to literally everything. That’s how conservatives think things work. The entire tribal worldview boils down to “well somebody’s gotta be king.” Just a fractal pyramid of militaries over empire, rulers over courts, owners over workers, and patriarchs over families. If you’re at the bottom you’re lucky to be alive, and how dare you question your betters.

          The unspoken assumption is that change is impossible. This is genuinely how they think everything works. Like the universe itself dictates a steep gradient, and the only way things could be different is by shuffling around who goes where. So if someone is suffering, they must have fucked up to deserve it, and if you want to help them, you’re putting someone else in their place.

      • ilinamorato@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        In most cases, yes; but in this case in particular, with UBI increasing the buying power of the poor, those with capital would actually profit off of implementing such a service. No, this one boils down to good old fashioned classism.

      • twelve20two @slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        And make sure their propaganda gets pushed as truth and that any opposition to it will lead to genocide and prison camps

    • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Remember that politics can be changed with votes. Tax them to finance change.

      It’s difficult, but blaming billionaires takes away our agency.

      • KillAllPoorPeople@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        If we could change politics by voting, we wouldn’t be allowed to vote.

        We’re not stretched thin to finance these changes. Taxes aren’t holding us back. This is what those with true power in society and their cronies say to not do anything. This is the whole point.

        No one is only blaming “billionaires.” This is you patronizing them, portraying yourself as a genius and the person you’re responding to as too naive and stupid to understand how life really works.

        And no, we don’t have agency. We have a deluded sense of agency where we think we can vote and change the system from within.

        • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          There are levels. Voters don’t have agency. But if voters would coordinate they would have agency.

          The difference is believing in agency.

          I am aware how stupid I sound. But how else can I phrase it that there needs to be a believe in change to create change? Right now I just hope that readers ignore the stupid part.

            • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Thanks for the upvote.

              There hasn’t been internet for most of history, nor global warming, nor automation.

              The joke is that people don’t want a fair revolution because the situation will be worse at first if resources are shared globally. People don’t want agency because they would be responsible for all problems.

          • DerKriegs@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            I love what you said about believing in agency: knowing what power is ultimately in our hands would change the world for the better.

            • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Thank you. Judging by the downvotes and objections, people deeply don’t believe it. I had expected some technical issues that prevent UBI but reading those replies makes me sad.

              This is Lemmy. People on Reddit will feel even more disenfranchised. But it could be the other way round because Marxism states that capitalist democracy doesn’t work and that a revolution is needed.

        • Solar Bear@slrpnk.net
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          1 year ago

          I don’t like this logic because it’s predicated on an nondescript “they” with unlimited shadowy power. It leads to unhelpful conspiratorial thinking bordering on the magical. It obfuscates the real problems we face, and if we don’t understand them, even a violent revolution to defeat it would eventually replicate the system we destroyed because we didn’t understand how it came to be in the first place.

          The reason it’s hard to change the system is because the system is self-reinforcing through individuals acting in their own immediate best interests and not acting as a class, not because “they wouldn’t let you change it, they’d just [rig the elections/not let you vote/kill you with a space laser]”. But that’s a complex answer, and it’s much easier to believe in the latter and call it a day.

          • KillAllPoorPeople@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Holy shit, what an anti-Semitic piece of shit you are. Absolutely classless.

            It doesn’t matter that you think this sort of “logic” leads to conspiratorial thinking. There is a “they” and it’s the ruling class. The ruling class, and its defenders, is made up of a lot of people and institutions who create, dictate, and govern the systems that keep them and their power firmly in place. Sorry that society is a bit more complicated than you want it to be. Reality is a hard pill to bite sometimes for you racists.

            And if you knew anything about anything, you’d know that democratically elected leaders are toppled by their ruling classes and/or outside forces (i.e. US) when something doesn’t go in the interest of the ruling class. To think somehow the US is immune from this is absolutely delusional thinking. Not surprising you’re into Western exceptionalism with your views on race.

            And again, I just want to reiterate how much of a bottom barrel racist scum you are.

            • Solar Bear@slrpnk.net
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              1 year ago

              I have no idea who you are talking to. Did you respond to the right comment? None of this makes sense as a response to anything I just said.

              • KillAllPoorPeople@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                It makes perfect sense. What are you confused about? Are you going to try to “it’s just an OK hand symbol” your way out of this? What else would “space lasers” mean in the way you meant it?

                • Solar Bear@slrpnk.net
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                  1 year ago

                  My entire post was warning against gesturing towards a vague power controlling everything because it leads to conspiracism. One major example of that conspiracism is antisemitism. I have literally no idea how you can read my comment and come back thinking I’m arguing in favor of antisemitism. Yes, the space laser thing was a jab at the infamous “Jewish space laser” conspiracy, and I was explicitly saying avoid that kind of thinking.

                  The problem with our society isn’t that there’s a nonspecific ruling class directly dictating everything. There doesn’t need to be. We proletariat as a class are fractured instead of united. There’s no need to rig elections or prevent us from voting because we don’t act as a threat against power in the first place. The system amorally chugs along unimpeded as we go about our individual lives instead of acting together. Our daily compliance is what sustains it, and the system is designed to punish noncompliance automatically.

                  The scary truth isn’t that there’s a puppetmaster pulling our strings, it’s that there’s nobody at the wheel at all.

        • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          It’s not just a matter of reversing power.

          Billionaires lead. Regular citizens would massively have to change their lives if they want to change that.

      • darq@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Remember that politics can be changed with votes. Tax them to finance change.

        I agree the wealthy need to pay a lot more in tax than they currently do.

        They also have disproportionate control over the electoral process in many countries, and most political parties are not even considering taxing them to the extent that they need to be taxed. Nor are most political parties challenging our capitalist society in any significant sense.

        Voting is important, but don’t expect voting alone to solve our problems.

        It’s difficult, but blaming billionaires takes away our agency.

        No it does not. Sod off with that. Correctly identifying a major contributor to an issue does not take away agency.

            • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              How about direct action to make citizens vote in a coordinated way?

              But you must have other direct actions in mind. Which ones?

                  • darq@kbin.social
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                    1 year ago

                    Because voting alone doesn’t work, as evidenced by the fact that it hasn’t worked over decades of us trying, you stupid wanker.