Specifically disregarding someone in favor of someone else based on discrimination is wrong no matter how you look at it. As long as these companies are evaluating all applicants fairly these women would have the same opportunity as anyone else. I’ve worked in IT for 20 years and while there are fewer women we also see fewer woman applying. Out of those that apply I’d guess a higher proportion are hired on than of the male candidates just because they typically present themselves better than a lot of the men. I’ve never seen anyone turned down because of their gender.
Since it seems like you’re looking to trap me here, how about you just go ahead and say what type discrimination you don’t think is wrong. When I said discrimination I was referring to the protected classes probably should have been more clear about that. Obviously there are traits that can make a person unsuitable for a job. I, for instance, as a short only moderately athletic man, should not be hired on to play for a professional basketball team.
So prefacing this with specifying I am Trans masc, former tech support person. Now in another male dominated career. I was read unambiguously as a woman during my time in the field and the number of times I picked up a phone and had someone ask me to put them through to a male tech was astounding. It doesn’t really matter if your employer is willing to hire you if you are treated like a second class citizen by the average person in the job. I lasted about three years before I left and trashed all hopes of ever applying for anything in the field ever again. The number of women folk who dip their toes into the entry-level and then decide that they can’t deal with the added mental health issues of being treated like a child or an idiot by default for the rest of their working life keeps a lot of women out of a lot of fields. Even if you are passionate about the thing the additional wear on your psyche will burn you out faster.
My new field has a different issue. It’s very nepotistic so people tend to hire their friends first. Being incredibly competent only earns you the fourth or fifth spot on a crew of about six or seven people. If you are a male crew boss and your friend base is overwhelmingly male and you hire the people you feel most comfortable around then unthinkingly about 50 percent of the most secure jobs go to your male friends. Women, incredibly competent ones, tend to bounce around our industry, a lot get stuck as temp labor. Female leads are rare as are those who get the secure crew spots despite the total numbers at the hall telling us 40 percent of the hall roll is female. It doesn’t matter if the bosses aren’t actively trying to discriminate against women because they are just hiring people they like to work with, in the end none of that matters if you are a woman because regardless of the intent in the hearts of the crew bosses you are still stuck having to be incredibly competent just to fight for the leftover scraps.
This is the argument made against affirmative action as well, but what I conveniently never see mentioned in these comments is how even with these extra steps to get women and BIPOC into underrepresented fields, often when equally qualified people submit their resume for a role in the larger field (outside of your company) a equally qualified white man has a greater chance to get the role than a black woman. I have a hard time thinking the system is discriminating against me, when objectively it isn’t.
I’ve been hiring a long time and I’ve never seen two candidates that were perfectly equal. Especially after going through the interview process and having a chance to speak to them and see how they carry themselves. I obviously can’t speak for every company but at mine we don’t even see demographic information when reviewing applications. I couldn’t select for race/ethnicity if I wanted to.
We quickly posted the jobs but also told our teams that we were hiring and to let their friends know. Nearly half the applications where from Hmong people, because several people working for us were Hmong and they put the word out in the Hmong community and suddenly half our workforce was Hmong overnight.
The same thing would happen if you had only spoken to women at a career fair and deliberately only hired women… The only fair way is to give everyone an equal chance to apply/speak to you. Like you said, get the word out everywhere not just to particular communities. With job sites and linkedin this is relatively easy. My company advertises on the radio/internet when we’re hiring as well.
Specifically disregarding someone in favor of someone else based on discrimination is wrong no matter how you look at it. As long as these companies are evaluating all applicants fairly these women would have the same opportunity as anyone else. I’ve worked in IT for 20 years and while there are fewer women we also see fewer woman applying. Out of those that apply I’d guess a higher proportion are hired on than of the male candidates just because they typically present themselves better than a lot of the men. I’ve never seen anyone turned down because of their gender.
Do you believe all discrimination is wrong?
Since it seems like you’re looking to trap me here, how about you just go ahead and say what type discrimination you don’t think is wrong. When I said discrimination I was referring to the protected classes probably should have been more clear about that. Obviously there are traits that can make a person unsuitable for a job. I, for instance, as a short only moderately athletic man, should not be hired on to play for a professional basketball team.
If someone needs a wheelchair I think it is proper to accommodate.
Of course.
So prefacing this with specifying I am Trans masc, former tech support person. Now in another male dominated career. I was read unambiguously as a woman during my time in the field and the number of times I picked up a phone and had someone ask me to put them through to a male tech was astounding. It doesn’t really matter if your employer is willing to hire you if you are treated like a second class citizen by the average person in the job. I lasted about three years before I left and trashed all hopes of ever applying for anything in the field ever again. The number of women folk who dip their toes into the entry-level and then decide that they can’t deal with the added mental health issues of being treated like a child or an idiot by default for the rest of their working life keeps a lot of women out of a lot of fields. Even if you are passionate about the thing the additional wear on your psyche will burn you out faster.
My new field has a different issue. It’s very nepotistic so people tend to hire their friends first. Being incredibly competent only earns you the fourth or fifth spot on a crew of about six or seven people. If you are a male crew boss and your friend base is overwhelmingly male and you hire the people you feel most comfortable around then unthinkingly about 50 percent of the most secure jobs go to your male friends. Women, incredibly competent ones, tend to bounce around our industry, a lot get stuck as temp labor. Female leads are rare as are those who get the secure crew spots despite the total numbers at the hall telling us 40 percent of the hall roll is female. It doesn’t matter if the bosses aren’t actively trying to discriminate against women because they are just hiring people they like to work with, in the end none of that matters if you are a woman because regardless of the intent in the hearts of the crew bosses you are still stuck having to be incredibly competent just to fight for the leftover scraps.
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I’ve been hiring a long time and I’ve never seen two candidates that were perfectly equal. Especially after going through the interview process and having a chance to speak to them and see how they carry themselves. I obviously can’t speak for every company but at mine we don’t even see demographic information when reviewing applications. I couldn’t select for race/ethnicity if I wanted to.
The same thing would happen if you had only spoken to women at a career fair and deliberately only hired women… The only fair way is to give everyone an equal chance to apply/speak to you. Like you said, get the word out everywhere not just to particular communities. With job sites and linkedin this is relatively easy. My company advertises on the radio/internet when we’re hiring as well.