Would they have all still fought against him?

  • GraniteM@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Isaac Asimov, a very intelligent person, wrote a lengthy essay to the effect that he had no idea what intelligence was. He talked about how society would generally consider him more intelligent than the nearly illiterate man who repaired his car, and yet whenever something went wrong with his car he would go to his mechanic and listen to his advice as if it was being handed down from the mountaintop by Moses himself, because Isaac Asimov knew fuck all about car repair. He talked about how he thought that supposedly objective IQ tests were generally a series of gates designed by people already considered intelligent to keep themselves in power, and that they totally disregarded huge swaths of indispensable human knowledge and talent. Isaac Asimov, who has been published in literally every section of the Dewey Decimal System, concluded that he had no firm idea as to what exactly “intelligence” even was.

    In short, how could one even define “the dumbest 50%”?

    And that’s why Thanos should have made everybody half as large as they once were.

    • deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      He talked about how he thought that supposedly objective IQ tests were generally a series of gates designed by people already considered intelligent to keep themselves in power, and that they totally disregarded huge swaths of indispensable human knowledge and talent.

      Modern psychology supports this, too. IQ tests are bullshit, and intelligence is not something that can be reasonably quantified in any meaningful sense without an insane amount of asterisks.

      Also…are we counting kids? Because you’d probably find kids are consistently beneath the 50% line on any generic intelligence measuring criteria someone makes up.

      • ButtholeSpiders@startrek.website
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        1 year ago

        I agree, I took a few IQ tests and scored high and initially it made me wonder is if everyone else was as concerned as I was watching our species being driven into early graves for yearly profit projections.

        Suffice to say, most people I met who scored high lacked the foresight to even think we might be screwed. Which led me to a swift conclusion that your IQ doesn’t mean jack squat, it was a biased system that was simply a biased form of dick measuring.

        Perhaps I’m disillusioned, but the best summary of our species is that old video of a chimpanzee in a zoo pissing in its mouth.

        • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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          1 year ago

          Many IQ tests, even ones that claim to be scientific, and especially free ones, artificially inflate the scores they give, to encourage the people taking them to purchase an in-depth analysis of their results.

          Like, “Your IQ is 135! That’s well above average! For $39.99, we’ll give you this in-depth, 18 page question by question analysis showing how you stacked up against everyone else, and what your answers mean!”

      • scarabic@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        snort “modern psychology” calls pseudoscience on someone? That’s my laugh of the day. Thank you!

    • Kahlenar@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Ahhhh the GOAT. Seriously, as a smart kid everything else about me was ignored. Something wrong at school? You CAN do it, so just do it. D&D breaks up mental stats, but there’s even more out there. Int, Wis, Cha to start. Then there’s motivation, happiness, and empathy, and more. The mind is super complex and an int score of 18 being all that matters is like the saying “this hammer solves my nail problem, it will surely solve my window problem.”

        • Gnome Kat
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          1 year ago

          I can’t get past how weirdly horny Niven was… had to stop reading the second ringworld. That being said Asimov gets weirdly horny in the later foundation novels too. Both of them really liked writing in way older men dating way younger women that just comes off as creepy now.

    • scarabic@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Good questions from Asimov. But just like with car repair, he didn’t know this subject. It has been a field of study for a while, and researchers have worked directly on this core problem defining general intelligence distinct from specific knowledge.

      This Veritassium video is a balanced overview of the topic: https://youtu.be/FkKPsLxgpuY?si=iY7QBEQK1DkzNhxI

      Needless to say, no, the IQ test is not a conspiracy by people who are good at number sequence problems to keep themselves in charge of the world.

      • bouh@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        IQ of someone is not stable: it changes depending on how much you train to do it or the mental/psychological state you are in when you pass it. Thus it is not a sound scale to measure anything.

        The fact that it is merely a ranking of people further push it in the realm of straight bullshit.

        • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          How can you possibly measure intelligence separately from the mental state of the person taking the test

        • bleistift2@feddit.de
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          10 months ago

          In Summer the Eiffel tower is higher than in Winter. Does that mean meters are not a sound scale to measure length?

          • bouh@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            The metter is not determined by the average height of the eiffel tower. The average height of the effeil tower is measured with the meter. That is the important difference. The meter is also based on constant of physics, and has a very precise definition. You can’t say the same of IQ.

    • DogMuffins@discuss.tchncs.de
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      1 year ago

      Even with the classic definition of intelligence it’s just useless - not predictive or indicative of anything.

      A student without the skills to learn isn’t going to learn much regardless of whether they’re intelligent.

    • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I really appreciate Asimov’s thoughts. Ethical hat off for a second - I would suggest removing the most destructive 50%. If someone is truly stupid they might just as well be harmless. However, removing the swathe of the population that engage in violence, greed, etc. would be a far better use of the finger snap than some metric of stupidity.

    • bouh@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      The definition for intelligence changed over the last 2 centuries because we keep discovering how an animal can fit the definition, and intelligence was used to separate humans from animals. Now it’s even worse because people are trying to separate AI from humans.

      I like the concept laid out by Delany: in a novel he describe 3 levels of intelligence based on the understanding of various point of views, but it’s not a ranking.

      The first stage is simplex: people don’t understand the science of the world, so everything is kind of magical but this concept of magic make the world hold itself and they can grasp everything and use everything with this conception of magic.

      Second stage is complex: people have an understanding of science and they can explain many things, but not everything. And when they can’t explain something, they can’t cope with it, because they don’t have the conceptual tools for it. Thus they will either deny this thing existence of plug it into their existing concepts by ignoring the feature that can’t fit.

      Third and last stage is multiplex : people can accept that there are theories different than the ones they know, ideas also. Point of views can shape the way you see the world, and even the scientific theories you have to explain the world can be seen as a point of view on the world, so changing this point of view can bring a new or different understanding of a phenomenon or thing or person. These points of view all coexist at the same time, none of them is more true than the other. Like the concept of magic, this allows to grasp, use or accept even the ununderstandable and the unknown, but with a better ability to understand than the simplex stage.

      I like this model. But it’s more a model for open-mindedness than intelligence. But maybe that’s the thing.

    • Willy@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      sorry to stop the circlejerk, but this is dumb. an intelligent person could learn to repair the car more easily and have more insight than a moron. intelligence exists and we all experience it everyday. the wais-r is a relatively good test, but no there is never going to be a perfect way to measure intelligence. you can say intelligence is just what the test measures which is really pretty non biased, but that’s reducing things too much. y’all know morons and people that are crazy fucking smart. experience in different subjects is distributed, but the ability to gain experience quickly is the biggest difference.

    • MajorHavoc@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      And that’s why Thanos should have made everybody half as large as they once were.

      Holy cow. However intelligence is defined, you’re smarter than I am. That would have been a really short film.

      …and I’m just realizing that universe would look pretty much exactly like those little kid Marvel Adventures shows…

      • GraniteM@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Found it!

        The essay is “Thinking About Thinking,” ©1989, collected in the book Magic: The Final Fantasy Collection.

  • idiomaddict@feddit.de
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    1 year ago

    Hang on, do you mean “with the least capacity to be smart,” or is he killing all the babies and children?

  • deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Would they have all still fought against him?

    I know this is No Stupid Questions but…come on.

    Why on Earth would the Avengers react any differently? Is the assumption that they’re morally bankrupt enough to actually reconsider in this scenario? That somehow letting “stupid” people be murdered is ever, in any way, acceptable?

  • MTK@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    The real question is which avengers would be gone. Putting my money on Thor

    • Moobythegoldensock@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Thor, Starlord, Drax, and Mantis would all be toast. Steve, Bucky, and Falcon are tossups because I think their intelligence is supposed to be about average.

      • MajorHavoc@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Good point, technically. But… We all know Thor would be gone. There’s no way the rightful heir to the throne of Asgard is in their top 50% intelligence.

  • PreparaTusNalgasPorque@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    I think the whole 50% depopulation is a flawed premise, of the hundred of thousands of years modern humans have existed that would throw total population back to… 1970

    • swordsmanluke@programming.dev
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      Yup. His movie motivation was dumbed down. The whole resources thing is stupid for exactly this reason.

      In the comics, Thanos became infatuated with the Marvel Universe incarnation of Death. …And naturally he figured that if he killed half the universe at once, he’d get her attention. (cause girls love it when a boy makes a huge amount of work for them…)

      Anyway, his plan was still moronic, but “manchild does stupid thing to impress girl” is a classic for a reason.

    • deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      It wasn’t just humans, it was the whole universe. He wasn’t concerned with how each individual species’ populations would fluctuate, he just had a solution in his head and went with it.

      Ya know, the “mad Titan” thing.

    • Dalvoron@lemm.ee
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      There is an addendum to his plan that might have made it make sense. If he had said something like “I’m giving the universe the chance to make better decisions”, suddenly having half as many people means (probably a little more than) half resource consumption, half the carbon emission, and more time to figure out and implement solutions to these problems. I’m not sure how the housing crisis would pan out, I expect it would get worse. It also makes more sense that he destroys the stones after “I gave the universe its chance, now the ball is in its court”.

      This also solves the doubling resource problem. His motives are to pressure people to change their ways. Giving them more stuff might cut hunger, but you’ll just have that hunger again in 50 years and we’d probably increase carbon output to boot, and destroy more environment to get these doubled resources.

      I don’t know enough about the stones to say whether “infinite resources” or whatever cheat code would have worked, but they certainly could have dropped a line that it wasn’t possible, or that it would cause more problems than it solved (how does chemistry even work in this universe? If nothing ever gets used in reactions then the chemistry that makes our bodies work is borked)

      But anyway, as the Russos did not put this line in, the premise was flawed

  • IphtashuFitz@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I think it largely depends on his definition of “dumb”…. Given he’s already committed to wiping out half of all life, I’d consider his mental facilities to be of questionable intellect already. His idea of who is dumb may be similarly questionable…

  • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
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    Dude, he killed Vision and Gamora and other people close to the member of Avengers, no way they gonna let him off the hook.

  • 🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 ℹ️@yiffit.net
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    1 year ago

    Why couldn’t Thanos just wish for unlimited resources? Or universal peace? Or literally any number of things that would have solved the problems he was trying to solve without anyone getting hurt or never existing? His method was stupid.

    • DudeBro@lemm.ee
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      I think that the motive should be allowed to be dumb, and their mistake was making Thanos appear lucid and competent. They really should have leaned into “the mad titan” thing and made him act more like an unhinged despot.

      • WHYAREWEALLCAPS@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Right? Nothing about him seemed really that insane or unhinged. Even killing Gamora, his adopted daughter that he appeared to care for, can be explained as him doing whatever it takes, not being insane. Even what he did to Nebula came off, to me, as just him being extreme in his desire for her obedience and perfect, like any other obsessed and controlling parent.

        Honestly, he came off more as the “annoyed Titan” than anything else.

      • 🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 ℹ️@yiffit.net
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        1 year ago

        That would have at least made his non-sense make sense. If he’s crazy, he gonna do crazy shit. That may even be why I have always preferred the over-the-top cartoon villains. They were insane, and their plots didn’t have to make sense because they were insane.

        “I’m gonna blow up the world!”

        “But, um… aren’t you part of the world?”

        “Shut up, you and pull the lever!”

  • Crackhappy@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I don’t think the hulk would have reacted at all, since he’d be gone. But does that mean Banner would stay somehow?

  • CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world
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    1 year ago

    Ant-Man: Well come on, wait, you know, there are different kinds of intelligence, right? Please someone tell me I’m not making that up.

  • Poob@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    Thanos was a fucking stupid character in the MCU. The human population is currently doubling every 61 years with a growth rate of about 1.14%. Assuming similar numbers across the galaxy, he didn’t do anything except cause suffering. He’s a very poorly written villain.

    I guess to stay on topic, they would have looked at population growth, and determined that his plan was moronic, and fought him.

    • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      I agree that Thanos is dumb, but he’s well written. He’s supposed to be stupidly short sighted; that’s his whole deal. He experienced a problem with his own society, and invented an idiotic solution that was readily rejected (rightly) by his own people. He saw the downfall after that and said to himself that the cause was that they didn’t listen to him.

      When he grew powerful enough to do it, wanting nobody else to suffer the loss of their entire society like he did, forces the universe to participate in his little exercise with little to no regard for the losses people suffer, nor the long term consequences of his plan.

      He has no ability to think beyond the small scope of time that encompasses his plan.

      Sure, resources will be far less scarce for people in the short term, but, as you’ve correctly pointed out, in the long term, he’s simply delaying the inevitable, which is why his statement near the end of endgame is so poignant: “I am inevitable”. Then he snaps, and nothing happens because Tony stole the infinity stones, proving he’s not inevitable and underneath it all, he’s not thinking of the inevitable outcome of his plan (which is only delaying things at best, and is an actual war crime).

      He’s convinced himself so throughly that his way is the only way that he refuses to even entertain the idea that there may be other solutions, which bluntly, other solutions may have an actual effect in the long run (more than 100 years out).

      He’s meant to be fanatical about it being the only option and unable to be convinced otherwise. He’s written perfectly for that role.

      Other means of population control should be considered, but he’ll have none of it. I see it as analogous to so many humans in real life that deny long term damages to the planet and to future generations because of short sighted “freedoms” or benefits that they may reap in their lifetime. A whole “fuck the distant future for immediate gains” kind of mentality; something that, quite bluntly, is the prevailing mindset of most capitalist businesses. It’s all about maximizing the present and damn the consequences.

      Thanos is a literary tool to describe problems we have right here and right now, on a fundamental level. People do convinced that their way is the only way that they will do immense harm to their fellow humans (and/or other living beings) just to do what they think is in the best interest of themselves and others, without considering evidence or any discourse that may prove that their way may not work out long term.

    • justastranger@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      That’s because they tried to make him some sort of noble villain in the movies when he was just horny for Death in the comics and wanted to impress her

  • Showroom7561@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    Thanos could have literally chosen 1000 other options that were better than killing 50% of all living things, and I’m sure nobody would have disagreed!

    • justastranger@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      He could have literally just wished for the best, most ethical solution to happen without even coming up with one and had the stones figure it out for him (i mean, one of the infinitely powerful magical space crystals is the mind stone after all, could totally just say it’s capable of thought)