No one is saying that biological sex isn’t real, you’re making up a position that you’re arguing against.
If you want to actually understand, ask questions more than you make assumptions. Something simple like “How do you view biological sex?” would actually tell you something.
All my respects sir but you can be the individual who thinks that, but a kind remind is that the majority of people who go out their way to debate trans problems are the very obnoxious conservatives, republicans, all fascist muck you find in southern states. Unfortunately the Venn diagram is heavily intertwined
Normal people just live their lives, the people who are heavily invested in this subject are either trans people themself or bigots. Are you this dense on purpose?
I see this, and all the other comments taking it to be in support of the transphobes, but… it works equally for pro-trans against transphobia. Gender’s a construct; what makes it ok to judge people for not conforming to the “standard model” construct?
There are some situations where a decision has to be made, like are trans women allowed to participate in woman sports where physical strength is a big factor? Idk what the right answer is, but we have to decide that as a society and not just on an individual level. Imo gender should not be the deciding factor in the first place, but that’s just my opinion.
In sports I feel like they should be using things like weight class or strength as opposed to using gender, I mean we don’t segregate by race (at least not anymore) even though there were seemingly valid reasons to do so with that at the time since it wasn’t really used for those reasons, it was used because it was easier to limit their funding that way and could even keep them from competing altogether in some cases.
I don’t think there isn’t an issue at all, but I also don’t think the issue is as big as the pearl clutching conservatives make it out to be, especially considering that they never offer solutions, they just want to exclude trans people when making these arguments.
So in short I feel like we could come up with a better grouping system that groups based on strength and weight, while also taking into account the fact that differences in strength and weight are also kind of the point of sports. I’m not sure exactly how though since I’m not really in sports.
social constructs aren’t totally fake, they’re made “real” by social reinforcement. for example, in the 1940/50s it was expected of women that they were “weak”, and many who went out of line (by speaking up to their husbands, protesting, etc) were punished by being beaten or worse. the feminist and trans rights movements seek to eliminate the old roles and stereotypes assigned to gender to get rid of the real-world retaliation towards those deemed inferior. in contrast, those who seek to reinforce the old ways continue these systems of abuse.
Since when has singular they/them not been natural language flow? It’s been a common part of the English language foriterally hundreds of years. Shakespeare used it, but many before him did as well.
Your stupid arguments about things being “natural” are always missing (or ignoring on purpose) so much context. It makes no one want to take you seriously.
I’m a cis-gendered straight white man by the way. I’m not asking anyone to treat me differently from the way I’ve always been treated, but I think others deserve the same respect for the way they want to be treated. If you want to disrespect others who have done nothing wrong then you don’t deserve respect.
@Cethin@Mr_Blott To be fair, there was a big thing in schools about it being “improper English” for a bit. Some n+1th language speakers don’t find it comes naturally, and *in theory* there might be native variants of English where it isn’t present (though I have yet to see one – even anti-singular-they teachers tend to use it).
Linguistic prescription is bad, but that goes both ways. I find the ‘correctness’ argument much less compelling than the ‘common decency’ argument.
And what about language flow would you call “natural”? You’re aware of the fact that there are many other languages besides English, aren’t you? In most of them neither he or she or they are even words! Nothing natural at all. It’s just habitual.
Would you call Muhammad Ali Cassius Clay? Would you claim doing so would not not be offensive?
This attitude doesn’t work. It’s impossible to keep your opinion to yourself in some situations, like when you need to talk to someone who wants to be called by a certain pronoune, or when some decisions have to be made that affect multiple people.
We have to figure this out as a society and get people on board, there is no way around it.
Judging by the fact that we are still debating about genders, biology, pronouns, declinations, sports, bathrooms and so on, society at large has not figured it out yet imo.
A vocal minority hasn’t, true. I just don’t think people should really bother wasting their effort trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Racism is still a thing, but the people who are still racist aren’t really going to be convinced by logic. If you feel it’s worth the effort then more power to you.
I get it though. I’m a cis man, and I have spent way too much emotional energy trying to convince people who won’t be convinced on this, and it doesn’t even effect my life. I can imagine it must feel more urgent for someone who is effected by them to try. I’ve just personally come to accept that it’s hopeless for some people and energy is better spent elsewhere. It’s not worth hurting your own mental health over these people, in my opinion.
Would you like to explain what your issue is so I can elaborate? Maybe your reading comprehension is just poor because I didn’t say anything contradictory in my comment.
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Because one idea is that there’s nothing wrong with being trans, and the other idea is that trans people shouldn’t exist.
Fuck off.
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No one is saying that biological sex isn’t real, you’re making up a position that you’re arguing against.
If you want to actually understand, ask questions more than you make assumptions. Something simple like “How do you view biological sex?” would actually tell you something.
All my respects sir but you can be the individual who thinks that, but a kind remind is that the majority of people who go out their way to debate trans problems are the very obnoxious conservatives, republicans, all fascist muck you find in southern states. Unfortunately the Venn diagram is heavily intertwined
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Because your idea of gender constructs is a 3 year old’s understanding of complex biology and cultural anthropology.
And those different ideas are fascist dog whistles.
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Burning up goodwill by asking loaded questions and then demanding I boil down a college semester for you in a comment is troll behavior.
Normal people just live their lives, the people who are heavily invested in this subject are either trans people themself or bigots. Are you this dense on purpose?
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Names are a construct that’s imagined too.
I’m imagining your name is something like “dickhead”
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I see this, and all the other comments taking it to be in support of the transphobes, but… it works equally for pro-trans against transphobia. Gender’s a construct; what makes it ok to judge people for not conforming to the “standard model” construct?
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Exactly, people should be able to live their lives without being judged for what gender they are or how they present.
There are some situations where a decision has to be made, like are trans women allowed to participate in woman sports where physical strength is a big factor? Idk what the right answer is, but we have to decide that as a society and not just on an individual level. Imo gender should not be the deciding factor in the first place, but that’s just my opinion.
In sports I feel like they should be using things like weight class or strength as opposed to using gender, I mean we don’t segregate by race (at least not anymore) even though there were seemingly valid reasons to do so with that at the time since it wasn’t really used for those reasons, it was used because it was easier to limit their funding that way and could even keep them from competing altogether in some cases.
I don’t think there isn’t an issue at all, but I also don’t think the issue is as big as the pearl clutching conservatives make it out to be, especially considering that they never offer solutions, they just want to exclude trans people when making these arguments.
So in short I feel like we could come up with a better grouping system that groups based on strength and weight, while also taking into account the fact that differences in strength and weight are also kind of the point of sports. I’m not sure exactly how though since I’m not really in sports.
social constructs aren’t totally fake, they’re made “real” by social reinforcement. for example, in the 1940/50s it was expected of women that they were “weak”, and many who went out of line (by speaking up to their husbands, protesting, etc) were punished by being beaten or worse. the feminist and trans rights movements seek to eliminate the old roles and stereotypes assigned to gender to get rid of the real-world retaliation towards those deemed inferior. in contrast, those who seek to reinforce the old ways continue these systems of abuse.
You can have any opinion you want as long as you keep it to yourself and don’t try to force anyone else to do what you want.
People can also have the opinion that you’re an asshole for the opinion that you hold.
So you shouldn’t force someone to refer to you as they/them instead of using their natural language flow?
Since when has singular they/them not been natural language flow? It’s been a common part of the English language foriterally hundreds of years. Shakespeare used it, but many before him did as well.
Your stupid arguments about things being “natural” are always missing (or ignoring on purpose) so much context. It makes no one want to take you seriously.
I’m a cis-gendered straight white man by the way. I’m not asking anyone to treat me differently from the way I’ve always been treated, but I think others deserve the same respect for the way they want to be treated. If you want to disrespect others who have done nothing wrong then you don’t deserve respect.
@Cethin @Mr_Blott To be fair, there was a big thing in schools about it being “improper English” for a bit. Some n+1th language speakers don’t find it comes naturally, and *in theory* there might be native variants of English where it isn’t present (though I have yet to see one – even anti-singular-they teachers tend to use it).
Linguistic prescription is bad, but that goes both ways. I find the ‘correctness’ argument much less compelling than the ‘common decency’ argument.
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And what about language flow would you call “natural”? You’re aware of the fact that there are many other languages besides English, aren’t you? In most of them neither he or she or they are even words! Nothing natural at all. It’s just habitual.
Would you call Muhammad Ali Cassius Clay? Would you claim doing so would not not be offensive?
This attitude doesn’t work. It’s impossible to keep your opinion to yourself in some situations, like when you need to talk to someone who wants to be called by a certain pronoune, or when some decisions have to be made that affect multiple people.
We have to figure this out as a society and get people on board, there is no way around it.
Society has figured it out. You’ll never be able to convince everyone though. The best that can be hoped for is that they just aren’t assholes.
Judging by the fact that we are still debating about genders, biology, pronouns, declinations, sports, bathrooms and so on, society at large has not figured it out yet imo.
A vocal minority hasn’t, true. I just don’t think people should really bother wasting their effort trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Racism is still a thing, but the people who are still racist aren’t really going to be convinced by logic. If you feel it’s worth the effort then more power to you.
I get it though. I’m a cis man, and I have spent way too much emotional energy trying to convince people who won’t be convinced on this, and it doesn’t even effect my life. I can imagine it must feel more urgent for someone who is effected by them to try. I’ve just personally come to accept that it’s hopeless for some people and energy is better spent elsewhere. It’s not worth hurting your own mental health over these people, in my opinion.
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Would you like to explain what your issue is so I can elaborate? Maybe your reading comprehension is just poor because I didn’t say anything contradictory in my comment.