Idk if this is the right community for this conversation, but it’s been on my mind and I want to share it with someone.
In the 00’s every new thing we heard about the internet was exciting. There were new protocols, new ways to communicate, new ways to share files, new ways to find each other. Every time we heard anything new about the internet, it was always progress.
That lasted into the early teens and then things started changing. Things started stagnating. Now we’re well into the phase where every new piece of news we hear is negative. New legislations, new privacy intrusions, new restrictions, new technologies to lock content away and keep us from sharing, or seeing the content we were looking for. New ways to force ads.
At one point the Internet was my most favorite thing in the world. Now I don’t know if I even like it anymore. I certainly don’t look forward to hearing news about it. It’s sad, man. We’ve lost a lot. The mega corps took the internet from us, changed it from a million small sites that people created because they had big ideas, or were passionate about small ones, and turned it into a few enormous sites with no new ideas, no passion, just an insatiable desire for money.
We’re at the end of an era, and unlike the last 20 years of progress, I don’t think most of us will like what the next era brings.
Well. Those corporations took their money and threw it in. Basically fusions of different services. Besides that you have a lot of clickbaits and cheap stuff like dropshops and so on.
You gotta be very picky on what services you use. Lemmy f.e. is amazing for me. It does not feel like someone wants to get money off me.
The internet basically became what the analog world was before and it’s anything else than amazing.
Edit: in short terms: Capitalism took the internet from the people.
Edit: in short terms: Capitalism took the internet from the people.
Well said. The Internet was certainly a lot more fun before anyone figured out how to make money on it. But it’s insane that these companies make more money now than even the largest giants did when I was a kid, and it’s still not enough for them. I’m just flabbergasted by their insatiable desire. They could keep a good product and still pull insane profits, but they’re willing to burn it all down for another percentage point on their quarterly return. I guess that’s a change to the world in general now too. There used to be a common wisdom that if you built a great product, and made your customers happy, you’d be successful. The prevailing attitude now is that the success that comes from that isn’t enough anymore. You need to make the worst product that you’re still able to sell, and then make sure you sell it to the same people multiple times. It’s gross.
It’s the cancer that capitalism truly is. If you’re not growing, you’re failing and enshittification is an inevitable late stage consequence of capitalism.
It’s just pump and dump.
enshittification is an inevitable late stage consequence
Maybe, but I don’t think it is. Enshittification is a direct result of our tax policy that encourages cashing out, only looks at the short term, and requires constant growth.
There was a time when companies built a reputation and held onto it for a hundred years. We could go back to that.
Tax the rich.
Agreed. We need to revert to meaningful tax brackets and apply some new ones to prevent billionaires.
You need to make the worst product that you’re still able to sell, and then make sure you sell it to the same people multiple times.
This is a lovely summary of modern capitalism. The carnival barkers would have you still believe that excellence rises to the top, but it doesn’t. What wins is the appearance of excellence, as a facade for the least effort possible, like you said.
Share markets created this perverse incentive that rewards businesses for appearing successful even if they produce fuck all. I’m thinking of Jack Welch era GE or today’s preeminent carbon credit trading firm, Tesla Motors.
It reminds me of the feedback loop engulfing the major LLMs as they consume more and more of their own content and start outputting lower and lower quality: the original goal of rewarding the best is long lost, replaced by making line go up at all costs.
The 90s were worse imo when it came to quarterly returns
Yeah, for all of Lemmy’s shortcomings, it’s the best thing to happen to my internet in the last year.
A decently thriving online community of thousands of active users, not run by an entity or corporate board intent on sucking every last cent from people? Hell yeah!
In the meanwhile, EU legislation has gone from being so boring you would prefer to watch the grass grow to making headlines that make you smile.
Ironically, farmers, the people most interested and invested into watching grass grow, has benefited greatly from EU agriculture subsidiaries in the past.
What about the people who watch paint dry? Surely the EU has their back covered too.
Nah, that’s what the paint is for…
In 2004 I was a radical young man protesting for bikes and against the Iraq War. At one of the meetups another kid who had been at the RNC protest in New York showed us this software someone had hacked together overnight to broadcast SMS messages. Basically you could send an SMS to a VOIP phone number and it would echo the SMS to everyone subscribed. They were using it to communicate in the crowd at the protest and avoid police kettles. It was pretty cool but I admit I didn’t really see it as being more broadly useful.
Later that night the group went for drinks and I was talking with one of the older radicals and he was telling me that the internet was too good and too powerful and they were going to shut it down. I thought that was absurd. How could they get rid of the internet!? He said they would figure out a way to shut it down, there’s just no way they could leave it out there, it’s too dangerous for them to do so.
Now I look at the thing we call “the internet” in 2023 and it looks nothing like that internet. The current internet is completely corralled, controlled and monetized. He was totally right. While they never “flipped the switch” on it they used salami tactics little by little until there was nothing left.
There didn’t even need to be a deliberate cartel for this to happen either.
Amazon realized it could make money and grow the company by offering cloud services and now AWS runs something like 30% of the internet.
Google turned their leading search algorithms into an extensive tracking and advertising platform that integrates with most of the internet.
Apple decided that people don’t need to be allowed to tinker with and repair their own devices so that hardware can be locked into a four-year cycle of planned obsolescence.
A whole bunch of profit-maximizing firms did the hard job of controlling everything for the governments.
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+1 for FOSS, but it’s not easy to do. It’s sort of like going vegan. It’s great at first, but then you try to go out to eat and it’s hard, family gatherings become difficult and political, people start to push meat or question your motives. You still feel good about it because you’re doing it “for the animals” or whatever, but you’re no longer in the mainstream. While your coworkers all go out to that new steak joint, you’re left behind with your bag of broccoli.
To elaborate, look at Lemmy. You can get FOSS apps for your phone to browse Lemmy, but now try to coordinate some event, like your local soccer club using only FOSS. Plenty of folks are content to blindly consume what Zuck or Goog wants them to see and use.
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What is FOSS?
Free and Open-Source Software
In case this wasn’t asked sarcastically - Free and Open Source Software.
Free Open Source Software.
Edit: there is also FLOSS which adds the French “Libre” to include “free as in speech”.
Or in the case of leaked source Code it’s also Forced Open Source Software.
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Funny I said the same thing in 1995.
The internet is what you make of it. Meaning, you don’t need the entire wide area network, you just need what you don’t want in your local area network.
In terms of an interconnected network, you need only what you need!
This is an amazing time. Lemmy, self hosting, docker, cloud hosting, $100 consumer devices that rival $10k servers from ten years ago, AI, LLM, global gaming, etc….
Now it’s up to you to take a shot at creating the next exciting thing. Aim high and give all you can to succeed.
Exactly. I think lemmy is flawed, but it’s a lot more exciting than the status quo, so I try to help out. Right to repair isn’t Internet specific, but it’ll likely have an ripple effect as people decide to take back ownership of their devices and data. Cryptocurrency is a ponzy scheme, but the idea of a decentralized service as important as a currency is exciting, especially for the ripple effect it’s likely to cause (e.g. we could use similar tech to decentralize lemmy).
There’s a lot of exciting stuff if you know where to look.
Do you think it was invented as a Ponzi scheme, or has that just become the perception based off the massive initial growth in value? I think that the goal was always for the eventual stabilization of the currency, which of course means that mining becomes less and less profitable. It needs to eventually hit a point where mining produces no new coins for the currency to hit stability. But then idk why anyone would run the servers required for verification. At that point the verification becomes massively power intensive. So maybe it was always a Ponzi scheme? I’m no crypto expert, so I don’t really know.
It was corrupted in much the same way the stock market was corrupted. That whole thing is mostly speculative gambling now, when it was supposed to about profit sharing with companies that were either sound investments currently with steady profits or up-and-coming companies that had potential. Now it’s just casino gambling betting on prices that are completely divorced from reality that expects infinite growth of made up value.
Go read a bit of Satoshi’s white paper on Bitcoin. It was created in response to the banking industry as a way for individuals to securely own digital currency without a centralized institution.
I have. I know the stated goal. The question is do you think that was the actual intent, or was it always intended as an elaborate ponzi scheme? I think it has more or less lived up to its stated goal, but as a currency. People think it’s a Ponzi scheme because it’s treated as an investment. From that perspective I can see why they think that and I wonder if they think that’s what it was originally created for.
If it was a Ponzi scheme from the get go he would have cashed out his billions by now.
No, it just didn’t get traction for actual transactions fast enough and it just became a target for speculation. That’s a positive feedback loop where volatility discourages use as a currency while encouraging speculation.
I think what we need is to establish an independent digital currency first, and then decentralize it. For example, GNU Taler, and then build out the infrastructure and a cryptocurrency could then be phased in. Once the mass market uses digital payments outside the banking network regularly, they’ll be ready to adopt something like BitCoin for international use.
A big part of it is that people are so unbelievably cynical now. They’ll rush over one another to point out and then circlejerk over the most negative aspects of every new development, while ignoring every positive.
The old internet would have flipped out over ChatGPT, much less Midjourney, and generated thousands of hilarious stories and images and pages that generated ridiculous random comic books or fake government websites for absurd departments or whatever. They would have been delighted with it…and as an afterthought it may have occurred to them that there might be downsides.
Today, people get furious about the fact that AI exists, that it was trained on existing material, that it might affect people’s lives. Long articles are written on the terrible effects AI is going to have on politics or media. Post an AI-generated image in anything other than an AI-art forum, and you’ll be absolutely lambasted. Suggest that there may just be a few updates and watch the downvotes and angry replies flood in.
Part of that is just experience. We’ve lived though a few ‘revolutions’ for which the net effect was…arguably not so great. Part of it is that the age of the average Internet-savvy user is like 35-40 now, not 22, so they’re bringing a level of fear and skepticism that wasn’t there before.
And partly there just seems to be a sort of social malaise and negativity that wasn’t there before. People in 2005 were happy and excited for the future. Now everybody just seems fearful, angry, and burned out.
I think ever since I came here, it was with the same message: the time for postmodern cynicism where nothing ever matters is over, it’s time to embrace a new sincerity, a return to a more human Internet we imagined from yester-year, while still acknowledging the the advancement and progress that happened during the Web 2.0 era.
And I think the Fediverse, decentralized social media to something more akin to the various independent forums and blogs that still has all the advantages of centralization, is the start of something beautiful.
You can thank capitalism for this, back at the dawn of the internet it was largely just regular people running sites and building organic networks. Then the internet started getting commercialized, and the tech started turning increasingly user hostile and exploitative.
Corporations complain about how IOT was supposed to be the next big thing but it went bust. Meanwhile they are the ones who tried to use it intrude on everyones lives. Which is why no one wants it.
The death of this guy has to do with some of it, he worked on some pretty cool stuff and was an all-around pretty awesome dude working for the betterment of the world.
you mean the murder of this guy
In my teenage years, the Internet was my favorite escape from the horribleness of my offline life. I thought it would always remain so, so decided to start a career in software engineering because that would be an improvement to the world.
Now that I haven’t been a teenager for nearly ten years, often enough the Internet is actively bad for my mental health and I have to get away from it to improve my mood. I have no interest in participating in propaganda wars.
The way I see it Steve Jobs marked a turning point with those Apple events. The corporate platitude bullshit with the “you told us and we listened” jargon. Before technology was mainly hobbyist nerds making stuff out of the love of technology. There was a two way relationship where the developers trusted the users and the users trusted the developers be acting in good faith. Now it’s lifeless and jaded beneath a veneer of forced corporate smiles. Over the years everyone adopted the turtleneck speak in one way or another.
It’s an insult to our intelligence to push anti-patterns. All while expecting us to engage like sheep in the mandatory capitalist pep rally. ‘We made 20% efficiency to your oppressive experience. Now cheer! I said CHEER damn it’.
Eh… He was a great marketer, but he didn’t usher in our current tech dystopia. I blame social media.
I blame Google. When the same company owns the most popular search engine, most widely-used browser, most popular email service, one of the largest video sharing platforms, and the largest online advertiser, that’s called a monopoly.
Our current tech dystopia has many facets and factors that went into creating it.
Jobs’ quest to simplify computing (great), unfortunately came along with a maniacal god complex and demand for control that led to Apple creating a monopolistic vertically integrated walled garden that stifles innovation and avoids competition. It’s the model that Google has increasingly pursued and is a part of why tech innovation has stalled out these days.
I just ignore the news entirely and enjoy my little part of the internet with the people I like.
This is the correct method, my tiny corner of the internet with my friends playing games and chatting in ways we enjoy.
We use the internet for us, if I have to cut a huge swath of the internet in order to maintain my healthy space, I will.
Yeah but my corners were Reddit and Twitter…
Find a better corner, if I become dissatisfied with Lemmy, that’s exactly what I’ll do, it’s what I’ve done with reddit, Meta is next.
We are in a new phase and what you call stagnation is actually the maturity and stability of the internet that is spawning new services at the moment. For example:
Logistics are coming online. Loading lists, import/export paperwork, scheduling your truck unloading time from your smartphone. Lots of saas startups in that area.
Factories are coming online. Scheduling production across factories/countries on a single product level is still sci-fi, but they are working on it.
Trades are coming online. Billing software, planning, documentation. Each sector has their own ways to get accelerated and now they see value in it.
Plenty of stuff that was happening in excel sheets is replaced with a tailored web services which are content aware and allow live data entry/analysis from multiple end points.
There is so much work to be done. Universal availability and reliability of data centers, mobile networks, fibre connections were the backbone neccessary to build the next generation of services. They are in the making.
Yes there have been a lot of improvements to the way businesses operate due to the internet. I love how banking has changed, internet shopping, remote work, and all of that kind of stuff. I think that’s kind of separate from what I’m talking about though. I suppose I should have said the World Wide Web and not the internet, specially the WWW as used by individuals and groups for communication and sharing.
I actually despise the way banking has changed. Elder people, barely familiar with making calls from a mobile phone, are expected to use their phone banking app as a security token, to say something that happens every day. And that’s talking about people that can actually afford a mobile phone with internet access.
Furthermore, I’ve personally dealt with a number of elderly people scammed out of their life savings because they unknowingly gave scammers full remote access to their phone - The phone that contains the banking app seniors barely understand, the same phone their SMS based MFA codes are sent to.
To add insult to injury, the banks are refusing to reimburse any funds lost as they state the client allowed an outsider to access their account and transfer all available funds.
This is outrageous. I can see it happening all the time but I wish there were more visibility about this.
100% agreed. Imagine all of your reserves gone at such a vulnerable age and no recourse whatsoever. I thought your money was meant to be safer in a bank.
Old people can still go into the branch if that’s more their speed, assuming there are still any branches around. My credit union shut the local branch down and opened up some stupid branch that doesn’t even have cash on hand.
In theory, yes they can, in practice employees and elder people don’t work very well together, and these employers are there just for appearances.
Not in all cases. In a number of cases elderly people no longer hold licences and getting to and from the bank isn’t terribly realistic.
Who knows what this new money will do with the old ad-financed entertainment parts of the internet. VR/AR could actually get a second chance and maybe “smart” devices more usefulness than spamming ads. I hope cities and municipalities discover their role as online activity promoters for offline life.
I totally agree with you here. Now it feels like bots (AI) making content for bots (crawlers) and the only thing we a getting programmed to use is Google, where your question is answered without the need to even visit the website it took the data from.
It’s just boring and I’m a website developer 🤷♂️
Google has been trying very hard, for a very long time, to be the only destination on the internet. They want all the traffic. They started with site summaries at the top of the search page, then they moved to AMP, where they’re in charge of serving the content that others create, now they even show Reddit chains on their home page, and who knows what they have planned next. By serving content that other people created they get to serve their ads and keep 100% of the revenue, rather than sharing a pittance with some small AdSense publisher. They announced to the world that their values had changed when they changed their motto from Don’t Be Evil, and they’re certainly ignoring it now.
Even before it changed its motto, the idea of a company saying “don’t do evil” is on the same level as a cat saying “don’t scratch furniture”.
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Welcome to capitalism
Now go home?
