The problem is, theres no definitive distinguishihg description of an abaya. It’s a loose dress. How do you distinguish someone who wants to be comfortable in a loose dress from a girl being oppressed by an abaya?
Maybe this will help: What is more important, allowing girls to feel comfortable in a loose dress or helping girls that are being opressed by an abaya?
There are better ways to prevent oppression than controlling what people wear (which is ironically exactly what their oppressors are doing). These girls and women should feel comfortable and free to wear whatever they want, without being forced by religion or the french government. The answer to oppression and authoritarianism isn’t more oppression and authoritarianism.
Yeah, the answr to opression and authoritianism is peace and love, go tell that to the ukranians, maybe if they surrender, Russia will threat them with love.
The solution of opression and authoritarianism is intolerance to them. The french government is not forcing people to wear something, they are enforcing the opressors to not force people to wear something.
Woooow. The mental gymnastics. Are you actually comparing the french government telling little girls what not to wear to the Ukrainian army forcing out a militant government trying to overtake them?
This so is incomparable I don’t even know where to start. First, the Ukrainians are choosing for themselves how and why to deal with their oppressors. I have never suggest you have to be nice and hold hands to fight authoritarianism. I only said that more authoritarianism is not the answer to authoritarianism.
What the french are tying to do is pander to the far right and distract form other issues within their government with culture war BS while willful idiots like you act like the government is playing white savior helping these poor girls from their oppressive clothes. This is actually peaceful AND AUTHORITARIAN at the same time. You do not need to be violent to be anti authoritarian or violent to be authoritarian. Your weird appeal to force to deal with everything… weird and makes no sense.
You don’t liberate people by being authoritarian. Yes, be intolerant of authoritarianism. Use violence when necessary even. But again, MORE AUTHORITARIANISM DOES NOT COMBAT AUTHORITARIANISM. Forcing people to combat authoritarianism under your control and terms does not work. If it did, the US would control a lot more of South America and the middle east. Instead, they just killed a lot of innocent civilians.
This is not some paradox of tolerance I am appealing to. Be intolerant of authoritarianism. Offer these girls mental health resources and a way to escape their families and religion. Offer them a way out of their oppressive situation. Offer them the power to overcome their oppressors on their own terms. Have consequences FOR THE OPPRESSORS if you want to be forceful. Because banning a “square shape” loose dress does nothing to the actual oppressors. What, you think they’ll send their daughters to school in jeans now? No, lol. They will send their daughters to school in a slightly different style of loose dress now. Nothing has happened to the oppressors forcing girls into the abaya.
But, forcing these little girls into “what is good for them” is not helpful. THEY should have the power to decide what is good for them. Everyone deserves that. They should decide what they want to wear. Not their parents. Not the french government.
I only said that more authoritarianism is not the answer to authoritarianism.
Come on, be real. Muslims and Islam force people into wearing x and y clothing. Dont come here and say they are not authoritarian. Yes, authoritarianism is the answer to authoritarianism. You are not going to win to authoritarianism with kind words.
Not their parents
Exactly. And they are the ones making a big deal out of this.
If a little girl wanted to dress as a unicorn to school, the parents would easily say: “no, you cannot dress to school, it is banned”, or do you think the parens would be like “WHY CANT MY LITTLE GIRL DRESS AS UNICORN TO SCHOOL. FRANCE IS FASCIST!”.
All these “but my daughter wants to cover her whole body, its her choice!!”, its coming from their parents.
All these “but my daughter wants to cover her whole body, its her choice!!”, its coming from their parents.
I think this is a very western take on feminism. There are many Arab atheistic women who write on the liberty of wearing clothes that cover their bodies without it having anything to do with shame or religion. Look into Leila Ahmed for example, a professor in Women’s Studies and Religion at the Harvard Divinity School. She is very against women’s oppression in Islamic tradition and majority countries. She’s based an entire career on it. She once opposed veils on women as an oppressive symbol, but has further dissected it’s role in western society where women are not oppressed by their religion and how it even represents freedom in a way. Because that’s how some western Muslim women feel when they wear it. Its their choice to decide what these clothes represent to them.
Some girls are forced and I won’t deny it. And I don’t think we should be tolerant of it. I really think there should be a system of support for Muslim girls in western societies so they can deal with and navigate these issues on their own terms and with their own autonomy. I wish we saw more of that.
But, acting like a girl living in France choosing to wear an abaya in a healthy Arab family setting (Or any loose dress popular in any culture) is any different from a girl choosing jeans in a healthy western family setting is disingenuous. We are all shaped by our upbringing, but that doesn’t inherently make it some kind of brainwashing or force or abuse.
Also, like… kids wear funky things to school. I don’t know enough about unicorn costumes in France specifically to say anything. But, depending on the costume I assume it would be left alone or stopped if it impeded normal school activity. This seems like a strange example.
An edit for your edit:
Yes, authoritarianism is the answer to authoritarianism. You are not going to win to authoritarianism with kind words.
Part of me barely wants to entertain this. I already explained how anti authoritarianism could be violent and how I wasn’t appealing to kind words or tolerance of intolerance. I offered tangible non authoritarian and even aggressive alternatives. Its scary that, even with this explanation, you think the answer to people behaving the way you don’t like is to control those that they abuse.
It was clearly a strange example to give a point, to which you didnt make any comment.
some girls are forced and I won’t deny it
So in your opinion, how are we going to help these girls that being forced into it? or is your opinion that they dont mind and we should only focus on the girls that want to dress conservative because they want? You mention a system of support for muslim girls… why are muslims not fighting for that? Its strange that they are only enraged, when the government decides to ban the abaya dress, but I wonder if they are also enraged by the fact that some girls are being forced into it.
acting like a girl living in France choosing to wear an abaya in a healthy Arab family setting (Or any loose dress popular in any culture) is any different from a girl choosing jeans in a healthy western family setting is disingenuous.
The difference here is that there is not a group/religion forcing girls/women to wear jeans. Sure, little girls see their moms wearing jeans and they also want to wear jeans, but there is not a religion telling women to wear jeans. With abaya dresses/other coverings, there is a religion telling women to wear them, so saying that little girls wear them because their moms wear them has a different connotation.
Thats the whole point here! Like it or not, this religion is brain washing women to cover their bodies because ELSE!, and they are taught that since childhood.
It was clearly a strange example to give a point, to which you didnt make any comment.
What would I comment on when there is little to no relation between your example and the issue at hand?
So in your opinion, how are we going to help these girls that being forced into it?
i think, at this point, I will just re quote things I’ve already said since it seems you’re just not reading?
" I really think there should be a system of support for Muslim girls in western societies so they can deal with and navigate these issues on their own terms and with their own autonomy."
"Offer these girls mental health resources and a way to escape their families and religion. Offer them a way out of their oppressive situation. Offer them the power to overcome their oppressors on their own terms. Have consequences FOR THE OPPRESSORS if you want to be forceful. "
why are muslims not fighting for that?
You’re saying this like they don’t? There are support systems in western countries too for Muslim women by Muslim women. People can be mad about multiple things at once. And, you will find that many Arab and Muslim women do fight as hard as possible for women in countries with Muslim governments that try to oppress them. Just like they fight the French government who tries to control them in the opposite direction. People don’t like authoritarianism in either direction. I don’t know what to tell you.
but I wonder if they are also enraged by the fact that some girls are being forced into it.
Yes. Yes they are.
The difference here is that there is not a group/religion forcing girls/women to wear jeans.
France is not Afghanistan. Girls are not being forced by religion in France the way they are in the middle east. You are not saving the little girls in Afghanistan by bullying the ones in France. Again, there’s a lot of feminist writing on how these clothes have a very different meaning in the west compared to the middle east. These women often wear these clothes for different reasons.
The problem is, theres no definitive distinguishihg description of an abaya. It’s a loose dress. How do you distinguish someone who wants to be comfortable in a loose dress from a girl being oppressed by an abaya?
Is it really that hard for you to answer that?
Maybe this will help: What is more important, allowing girls to feel comfortable in a loose dress or helping girls that are being opressed by an abaya?
There are better ways to prevent oppression than controlling what people wear (which is ironically exactly what their oppressors are doing). These girls and women should feel comfortable and free to wear whatever they want, without being forced by religion or the french government. The answer to oppression and authoritarianism isn’t more oppression and authoritarianism.
Yeah, the answr to opression and authoritianism is peace and love, go tell that to the ukranians, maybe if they surrender, Russia will threat them with love.
The solution of opression and authoritarianism is intolerance to them. The french government is not forcing people to wear something, they are enforcing the opressors to not force people to wear something.
Woooow. The mental gymnastics. Are you actually comparing the french government telling little girls what not to wear to the Ukrainian army forcing out a militant government trying to overtake them?
This so is incomparable I don’t even know where to start. First, the Ukrainians are choosing for themselves how and why to deal with their oppressors. I have never suggest you have to be nice and hold hands to fight authoritarianism. I only said that more authoritarianism is not the answer to authoritarianism.
What the french are tying to do is pander to the far right and distract form other issues within their government with culture war BS while willful idiots like you act like the government is playing white savior helping these poor girls from their oppressive clothes. This is actually peaceful AND AUTHORITARIAN at the same time. You do not need to be violent to be anti authoritarian or violent to be authoritarian. Your weird appeal to force to deal with everything… weird and makes no sense.
You don’t liberate people by being authoritarian. Yes, be intolerant of authoritarianism. Use violence when necessary even. But again, MORE AUTHORITARIANISM DOES NOT COMBAT AUTHORITARIANISM. Forcing people to combat authoritarianism under your control and terms does not work. If it did, the US would control a lot more of South America and the middle east. Instead, they just killed a lot of innocent civilians.
This is not some paradox of tolerance I am appealing to. Be intolerant of authoritarianism. Offer these girls mental health resources and a way to escape their families and religion. Offer them a way out of their oppressive situation. Offer them the power to overcome their oppressors on their own terms. Have consequences FOR THE OPPRESSORS if you want to be forceful. Because banning a “square shape” loose dress does nothing to the actual oppressors. What, you think they’ll send their daughters to school in jeans now? No, lol. They will send their daughters to school in a slightly different style of loose dress now. Nothing has happened to the oppressors forcing girls into the abaya.
But, forcing these little girls into “what is good for them” is not helpful. THEY should have the power to decide what is good for them. Everyone deserves that. They should decide what they want to wear. Not their parents. Not the french government.
Come on, be real. Muslims and Islam force people into wearing x and y clothing. Dont come here and say they are not authoritarian. Yes, authoritarianism is the answer to authoritarianism. You are not going to win to authoritarianism with kind words.
Exactly. And they are the ones making a big deal out of this.
If a little girl wanted to dress as a unicorn to school, the parents would easily say: “no, you cannot dress to school, it is banned”, or do you think the parens would be like “WHY CANT MY LITTLE GIRL DRESS AS UNICORN TO SCHOOL. FRANCE IS FASCIST!”.
All these “but my daughter wants to cover her whole body, its her choice!!”, its coming from their parents.
I think this is a very western take on feminism. There are many Arab atheistic women who write on the liberty of wearing clothes that cover their bodies without it having anything to do with shame or religion. Look into Leila Ahmed for example, a professor in Women’s Studies and Religion at the Harvard Divinity School. She is very against women’s oppression in Islamic tradition and majority countries. She’s based an entire career on it. She once opposed veils on women as an oppressive symbol, but has further dissected it’s role in western society where women are not oppressed by their religion and how it even represents freedom in a way. Because that’s how some western Muslim women feel when they wear it. Its their choice to decide what these clothes represent to them.
Some girls are forced and I won’t deny it. And I don’t think we should be tolerant of it. I really think there should be a system of support for Muslim girls in western societies so they can deal with and navigate these issues on their own terms and with their own autonomy. I wish we saw more of that.
But, acting like a girl living in France choosing to wear an abaya in a healthy Arab family setting (Or any loose dress popular in any culture) is any different from a girl choosing jeans in a healthy western family setting is disingenuous. We are all shaped by our upbringing, but that doesn’t inherently make it some kind of brainwashing or force or abuse.
Also, like… kids wear funky things to school. I don’t know enough about unicorn costumes in France specifically to say anything. But, depending on the costume I assume it would be left alone or stopped if it impeded normal school activity. This seems like a strange example.
An edit for your edit:
Part of me barely wants to entertain this. I already explained how anti authoritarianism could be violent and how I wasn’t appealing to kind words or tolerance of intolerance. I offered tangible non authoritarian and even aggressive alternatives. Its scary that, even with this explanation, you think the answer to people behaving the way you don’t like is to control those that they abuse.
It was clearly a strange example to give a point, to which you didnt make any comment.
So in your opinion, how are we going to help these girls that being forced into it? or is your opinion that they dont mind and we should only focus on the girls that want to dress conservative because they want? You mention a system of support for muslim girls… why are muslims not fighting for that? Its strange that they are only enraged, when the government decides to ban the abaya dress, but I wonder if they are also enraged by the fact that some girls are being forced into it.
The difference here is that there is not a group/religion forcing girls/women to wear jeans. Sure, little girls see their moms wearing jeans and they also want to wear jeans, but there is not a religion telling women to wear jeans. With abaya dresses/other coverings, there is a religion telling women to wear them, so saying that little girls wear them because their moms wear them has a different connotation.
Thats the whole point here! Like it or not, this religion is brain washing women to cover their bodies because ELSE!, and they are taught that since childhood.
What would I comment on when there is little to no relation between your example and the issue at hand?
i think, at this point, I will just re quote things I’ve already said since it seems you’re just not reading?
You’re saying this like they don’t? There are support systems in western countries too for Muslim women by Muslim women. People can be mad about multiple things at once. And, you will find that many Arab and Muslim women do fight as hard as possible for women in countries with Muslim governments that try to oppress them. Just like they fight the French government who tries to control them in the opposite direction. People don’t like authoritarianism in either direction. I don’t know what to tell you.
Yes. Yes they are.
France is not Afghanistan. Girls are not being forced by religion in France the way they are in the middle east. You are not saving the little girls in Afghanistan by bullying the ones in France. Again, there’s a lot of feminist writing on how these clothes have a very different meaning in the west compared to the middle east. These women often wear these clothes for different reasons.
If you actually care, please read this: https://www.law.georgetown.edu/immigration-law-journal/blog/the-war-on-muslim-womens-bodies-a-critique-of-western-feminism/