IMO, progressives (who’s not too bothered by Stein’s cozying up to Russia a bit) from California, most of New England, DC, Maryland, Hawaii, or Washington (state), and yet yammer on about how bad third parties are because they split the Democrat vote, are probably stupid, or at least ignorant, and should give some of the time they spend watching CNN or Vaush to reading election stats.
how bad third parties are because they split the Democrat vote, are probably stupid, or at least ignorant, and should give some of the time they spend watching CNN or Vaush to reading election stats.
Hey, I don’t need to comment because you said it all for me.
I backed my assertions with stats, however poor you think they are as analysis.
Your assertion is too vague to rebut directly. And I did not say stats are “poor analysis” I said using stats on their own without the background in contextualizing stats makes any analysis nearly worthless.
What do yo back up your assertions with, other than lame DNC, CNN, and Vaush talking points?
So you already have made up your mind about what and how I think allowing you to dismiss my actual points contained in my post, which you’ve conveniently ignored.
So I’ll repost my most important point: The core fact remains that voting for a third party under a first past the post system is risking permitting the greater evil to win.
The phrase was popularized in the United States by Mark Twain (among others), who attributed it to the British prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.[1] However, the phrase is not found in any of Disraeli’s works and the earliest known appearances were years after his death. Several other people have been listed as originators of the quote, and it is often attributed to Twain himself.[3]
Your assertion is too vague to rebut directly. And I did not say stats are “poor analysis” I said using stats on their own without the background in contextualizing stats makes any analysis nearly worthless.
So what are you saying, that a Californian progressive who voted for Stein made a dumb choice and the one who voted for Harris made the smart choice? Are you saying that not supporting or voting for leftist competition for the Democrats, and working in the system of supporting the contender who wins the Democrat candidacy, will expedite reforms, including election reforms, more quickly. Did Harris even publicly utter the phrases “ranked balloting” or “proportional representation” in 2024?
So you already have made up your mind about what and how I think allowing you to dismiss my actual points contained in my post, which you’ve conveniently ignored.
What points? Third parties bad, lesser evil good, because vote-splitting?
So I’ll repost my most important point: The core fact remains that voting for a third party under a first past the post system is risking permitting the greater evil to win.
In some states, the risk might be worth it in the Presidential elections.
What if in the 2028 US Presidential election, the GOP nominates Lisa Murkowski for President, the Democrats nominate Biden, who recovered to having the cognitive and speech abilities that he had in January 2022, and Joe Manchin as his running mate? Let’s also say Stein runs again, after condemning the Russian invasion of Ukraine, paid a visit to Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Kherson, and shook hands with Zelenskyy; in September of that year was polling 15%; and you’re a voting citizen of a state that since 2000 averaged a >10% plurality in Presidential elections?
So what are you saying, that a Californian progressive who voted for Stein made a dumb choice and the one who voted for Harris made the smart choice?
Blue states are the area where my argument is weakest, but honestly as a means of voting against Trump I’d probably still vote Harris if I lived in Cali. I’m less judgemental of people in solid blue states here voting third party, but I still think voting third party even then introduces future risk of vote splitting, but its a gaussian and temporal risk. So its hard to conceptualize.
Further, doing so and openly stating you intend to do so encourages people in purple and red states to potentially do the same. And lets be completely honest here: third party voters are going to be incredibly vocal about their vote. Third party and non-voters fucking love jerking themselves off about how virtuous they are for not voting for Harris.
Hypothetical, but still, who would you vote for?
I don’t know. But not for fucking Jill Stein and can tell you that much. I wouldn’t trust her 180 on Ukraine at all and there are other stances of hers I think are dumb. Nor would I likely bother with a different third party. I’d probably look look very closely at my options between red and blue. And I’d probably grit my teeth and vote for Biden depending on how he campaigned but I’d not be nearly as terrified since Trump is out of the picture.
And that’s the rub: in your scenario fascism is not on the ballot. The stakes are significantly lower. So the details would matter more.
Did Harris even publicly utter the phrases “ranked balloting” or “proportional representation” in 2024?
I don’t think she did, but neither did Trump. And in fact Trump is largely interested in destroying what little democracy we have.
I’m going to be honest though, it might as well all be hypothetical. Americans are fucked. Its game over, and we very very much deserve what’s coming.
I simply cannot grasp why some people believe voting 3rd party in a presidential election isn’t one of the dumbest possible things you can do in life.
Like, beyond the fact that the 3rd party candidate with the most votes in 2024 got a whopping HALF OF A SINGLE PERCENT of the total votes cast, meaning a 3rd party literally cannot win, there’s still the reality that even if they did win, no 3rd party has A SINGLE MEMBER IN CONGRESS, so if a 3rd party presidential candidate actually won, they wouldn’t be able to do shit, because they’d have literally ZERO allies in Congress.
I’m pretty sure anyone voting 3rd party for president has absolutely no clue how our government works. They have no concept of the reality they live in.
I simply cannot grasp why some people believe voting 3rd party in a presidential election isn’t one of the dumbest possible things you can do in life.
You might want to say that to Michiganders who voted for Stein (and Oliver) because of Gaza and the US presence in the Middle East.
The 2024 Presidential election isn’t the only one in US history: there have been 57 others.
Trump had few allies in Congress before 2016, but now members are the Republican caucus are falling all over themselves to curry favour from him.
I’m pretty sure anyone voting 3rd party for president has absolutely no clue how our government works. They have no concept of the reality they live in.
You are so correct—as members of the herd generally are. I like people who resort to exaggerations, over generalizations, and distortions.
On the one hand, corporatist party, on the other, literal fascists. Yes, clearly there is no superior option.
Then maybe vote for a third party.
A vote for a third party in presidential is not a vote.
It is a vote, and over 1.5 million Americans (excluding those for RFK) made such votes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election#Results
IMO, progressives (who’s not too bothered by Stein’s cozying up to Russia a bit) from California, most of New England, DC, Maryland, Hawaii, or Washington (state), and yet yammer on about how bad third parties are because they split the Democrat vote, are probably stupid, or at least ignorant, and should give some of the time they spend watching CNN or Vaush to reading election stats.
Hey, I don’t need to comment because you said it all for me.
Election stats? You ever hear the phrase “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics”
Stats on their own given a poor analysis of an average joe/jane can mislead just as much if not more than a talking head can.
The core fact remains that voting for a third party under a first past the post system is risking permitting the greater evil to win.
Yes, I think it’s from Twain.
I backed my assertions with stats, however poor you think they are as analysis.
What do yo back up your assertions with, other than lame DNC, CNN, and Vaush talking points?
Its commonly misattributed to him.
Your assertion is too vague to rebut directly. And I did not say stats are “poor analysis” I said using stats on their own without the background in contextualizing stats makes any analysis nearly worthless.
So you already have made up your mind about what and how I think allowing you to dismiss my actual points contained in my post, which you’ve conveniently ignored.
So I’ll repost my most important point: The core fact remains that voting for a third party under a first past the post system is risking permitting the greater evil to win.
Apparently, you’re right on that.
FWIW:
wp:Lies, damned lies, and statistics
So what are you saying, that a Californian progressive who voted for Stein made a dumb choice and the one who voted for Harris made the smart choice? Are you saying that not supporting or voting for leftist competition for the Democrats, and working in the system of supporting the contender who wins the Democrat candidacy, will expedite reforms, including election reforms, more quickly. Did Harris even publicly utter the phrases “ranked balloting” or “proportional representation” in 2024?
What points? Third parties bad, lesser evil good, because vote-splitting?
In some states, the risk might be worth it in the Presidential elections.
What if in the 2028 US Presidential election, the GOP nominates Lisa Murkowski for President, the Democrats nominate Biden, who recovered to having the cognitive and speech abilities that he had in January 2022, and Joe Manchin as his running mate? Let’s also say Stein runs again, after condemning the Russian invasion of Ukraine, paid a visit to Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Kherson, and shook hands with Zelenskyy; in September of that year was polling 15%; and you’re a voting citizen of a state that since 2000 averaged a >10% plurality in Presidential elections?
Hypothetical, but still, who would you vote for?
Blue states are the area where my argument is weakest, but honestly as a means of voting against Trump I’d probably still vote Harris if I lived in Cali. I’m less judgemental of people in solid blue states here voting third party, but I still think voting third party even then introduces future risk of vote splitting, but its a gaussian and temporal risk. So its hard to conceptualize.
Further, doing so and openly stating you intend to do so encourages people in purple and red states to potentially do the same. And lets be completely honest here: third party voters are going to be incredibly vocal about their vote. Third party and non-voters fucking love jerking themselves off about how virtuous they are for not voting for Harris.
I don’t know. But not for fucking Jill Stein and can tell you that much. I wouldn’t trust her 180 on Ukraine at all and there are other stances of hers I think are dumb. Nor would I likely bother with a different third party. I’d probably look look very closely at my options between red and blue. And I’d probably grit my teeth and vote for Biden depending on how he campaigned but I’d not be nearly as terrified since Trump is out of the picture.
And that’s the rub: in your scenario fascism is not on the ballot. The stakes are significantly lower. So the details would matter more.
I don’t think she did, but neither did Trump. And in fact Trump is largely interested in destroying what little democracy we have.
I’m going to be honest though, it might as well all be hypothetical. Americans are fucked. Its game over, and we very very much deserve what’s coming.
I simply cannot grasp why some people believe voting 3rd party in a presidential election isn’t one of the dumbest possible things you can do in life.
Like, beyond the fact that the 3rd party candidate with the most votes in 2024 got a whopping HALF OF A SINGLE PERCENT of the total votes cast, meaning a 3rd party literally cannot win, there’s still the reality that even if they did win, no 3rd party has A SINGLE MEMBER IN CONGRESS, so if a 3rd party presidential candidate actually won, they wouldn’t be able to do shit, because they’d have literally ZERO allies in Congress.
I’m pretty sure anyone voting 3rd party for president has absolutely no clue how our government works. They have no concept of the reality they live in.
You might want to say that to Michiganders who voted for Stein (and Oliver) because of Gaza and the US presence in the Middle East.
The 2024 Presidential election isn’t the only one in US history: there have been 57 others.
Trump had few allies in Congress before 2016, but now members are the Republican caucus are falling all over themselves to curry favour from him.
You are so correct—as members of the herd generally are. I like people who resort to exaggerations, over generalizations, and distortions.
You seem to be deriving meaning unstated in my comment.