Who could have predicted that constantly saying all men are trash could have negative impacts???
And to be clear in no way am excusing the behavior of people who respond in this fashion, but I can also understand how they ended up where they did.
I completely understand hating some people from any category of anything, but when you broadly blame ALL of a group you are absolutely going to alienate people who were either on your side or neutral. I think this is exactly what happened to a lot of guys. They were just sitting there minding. Their business and suddenly they are being told that they are inherently evil and shitty just because they are men. They hear it on the news and on social media. Pop culture takes a shit on them too once in awhile.
It doesn’t exactly take a rocket scientist to see how this could end up twisting around in the minds of some of them.
I don’t have the specific answers for how to combat this sort of stuff completely, but I think a good starting point would be to have more targeted criticisms as opposed to just going after an entire gender broadly. I think that has clearly done more damage for gender relations than it has helped anything so far.
Just my 2 cents as a guy who has seen some old friends who were once self proclaimed feminists now go full on into hating women. It’s sad to see.
These networks end up functioning as recruitment hubs, where young people − especially boys − are lured in by edgy memes
it has everything to do with that ^
and nothing to do with “constantly” saying men are trash.
Seriously, is this
“man hating dyke”“MiSANdRiSt trans woman” in the room with us right now?The fuckin ratio of Online Rightwing Recruitment to Real Existing “all-men-are-are-trash-sayer” isnt even close.
You’re getting angry at bots, rare arguments promoted to top of social feeds and/or State and non-state actor troll farms.
You’re really trumping up your numbers to victim blame that hard.
(This is not an invitation to debate, Ima go live my life)
Sadly many of these tactics aren’t new. And I don’t have an idea on how to fix this. Say we ban social media. Hate groups were online before the internet was a thing. They will still find some way of community building. We could make it harder.
But at this point you have boys sone enthralled by tate they refuse to talk to female teachers. They didn’t get that way just from TikTok. All the media they consume is just a gaint propaganda machine.
Even you isolate a kid from the internet their freinds are pulling them in.
All men are trash.
I’m probably considered feminism-critical, I think feminism can’t solve men’s issues and people who believe feminism is for everyone are dipshits peddling propaganda.
All men are trash.
If you can’t handle the fact that there’s an inherent shittiness to masculinity which women experience directly and painfully, you’re not a real man and should man up about it.
All people with blue eyes are trash. All curly haired people are trash. All women are trash. All brown skinned people are trash.
See how fucking stupid that statement is? I thought those of us with a brain learned that generalizing is fucking stupid. The others are bigots. Because generalizing an entire group of people with one common trait is what bigots do.
I am more willing to admit that it’s possible to be racist against white people than I am willing to admit that “all men are trash” is somehow punching down.
I don’t literally mean that every single man is a piece of trash, you know.
It’s not about punching up or down. It’s about generalizations. It helps literally no one, and the group it helps the least is feminists. Have you noticed the huge uptick in the toxic “alpha male” influence in younger generations? It is a direct response to the absolute bungling of a good message: feminism.
When conversations become global or even national or regional, the dumbest take is what is easiest to spread. “All men are trash” is the idiot’s version of the much more nuanced point, “women have historically been held down and overlooked in our patriarchal society, and have suffered at the hands of men-at-large in an outsized and much more devastating way than men have ever suffered at women’s hands or at those of men-at-large.”
The most simplistic answer can always be explained with a more nuanced explanation, but the problem is it needs to be explained. When people say “men are garbage,” the more nuanced and complicated message behind the overly simplistic and eye-catching hyperbole isn’t what’s spreading. It’s the dumbed down version of the message. And when the dumbed down version is hurtful or unfair, you’re not getting people to agree with you.
So if what you care about is women, you’re doing a terrible job. Because spreading “men are garbage” is directly responsible for the popularity of people like Andrew Tate. Young boys don’t know the context, but they see messages like “men are garbage” repeated by seemingly respectable adults. What’s their response? To think, “hmm, I should look into the historical context of women suffering at the hands of the patriarchy!” No, they are immediately upset and defensive, and when that idiotic message seems like it’s systemic, they will flock to spaces where assholes are telling them, “No, women are worthless garbage who should be making you sandwiches, king!”
So unless you love Andrew Tate and his ilk, I’d stfu on that stupid shit, if I were you.
If literally nothing else, do you really want to open the door to systematizing hurtful generalizations about entire identity groups? Do we need more of that or less of that in society? Yeah. The answer is definitely not “more.” So stop.
It is a direct response to the absolute bungling of a good message: feminism.
I agree with you there, but blaming feminism for the decisions men make isn’t excusable.
“women have historically been held down and overlooked in our patriarchal society, and have suffered at the hands of men-at-large in an outsized and much more devastating way than men have ever suffered at women’s hands or at those of men-at-large.”
Men at large tune this Democrat shit out and your inability to process the fact that the way Democrats relate to politics is inherently broken because they believe in long sentences is your problem to accept.
And when the dumbed down version is hurtful or unfair, you’re not getting people to agree with you.
But I’m not trying to get everyone to agree with me, I’m shoving the weak man above into being more reasonable about keeping men responsible for their own behavior and not deflecting to what those mean sjws said. Men have to be able to tell other men to ‘man up.’
So if what you care about is women, you’re doing a terrible job.
I care about women and men. Shut up.
If literally nothing else, do you really want to open the door to systematizing hurtful generalizations about entire identity groups? Do we need more of that or less of that in society? Yeah. The answer is definitely not “more.” So stop.
I want you to listen to this closely sweetie: there aren’t magic words to defeat the patriarchy. You can’t avoid hurting people’s feelings in the service of truth. You can’t find the right words to make men better, because men respect curt directness more than they do perfect reasonable paragraphs.
No, I am not.
There is nothing inherent about how we live our lives or experience the world. The violence the more vulnerable class of folks experience is a direct result of just that: class inequality. You may as well believe in phrenology given the shit you’re spewing.
Edit: jesus, even your post history shows you’re just an ass.
Better an ass than a weak man.
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And here I was going to say “no one says ‘all men are trash’”, and yet here you are: A complete fucking idiot.
I’ve seen so many people say some variety of “all men are trash” or “kill all men”, some of which in contexts where I do think it was offensive and counter-productive.
You’re actively in denial about the deserved reputation problem feminism has if you seriously thought that no one ever says this.
Yeah, especially trans men! They suuuuck! Just kidding, men are the greatest. Nice poem, though. Great job.
What is the “inherent shittiness” that masculinity has that directly effects women painfully?
Found the man triggered by women who prefer the bear.
Time for some class solidarity ?
We let you all vote and this is how you act. Jeez
Ok so other then large scake banning and control ocer social media how do we fix this
I’m glad this issue is gaining broader international recognition.
The strategies we’ve used to address it online seem to have mostly forced it underground without actually stopping the spread. It’s not just a few dark corners of social media where you’ll find evidence of it, either. You’ll see it pretty regularly in some of the largest communities on Lemmy, and anywhere young men congregate.
As for how we fix it, ultimately I think the way we socialize our young people is long overdue a shift from highly gendered social role reinforcement to a more flexible empathy-centric value system. But for the young men who have already been radicalized, I think an obvious start would be deprogramming by offering them more positive masculine identities than the machismo currently served up by pop culture.
One approach could, for example, emphasize qualities that are already familiar aspects of that identity, such as responsibility to others, protecting the weak, serving a community, etc. Regardless of the approach, there’s power in expectation. IMHO the people most well-equipped to do this are the cis men of earlier generations, simply because they are who these boys instinctively look up to the most.
And if that describes you, it’s something you can start doing today by simply knowing what to look for and when to step in.
a shift from highly gendered social role reinforcement to a more flexible empathy-centric value system
“More queer woke shit.” Is exactly how half the country will react. They don’t want this fixed. They don’t see a problem.
You’re right though. 100%
(Assuming US-specific) For sure, a quarter of Americans are simply too brainwashed to be of any help. Fortunately, many of those aren’t raising children anymore, but also there’s good evidence for a sizable chunk of quieter voters closer to the middle, a mixed bag of reluctant, not-fully-radicalized “fiscal conservatives” and “family-values liberals” that I’ve been waiting to hear more about in the news.
I think it’s possible the anti-woke messaging might not fully stick to them as easily, especially given a strong call to action that champions core values — integrity, responsibility, honor, strength of character, kindness, courage, and so forth — that Trumpism lacks entirely. As to why, I suspect we will witness a backlash from this middle group especially in the wake of Trumpism, or maybe sooner if they have some backbone left. If so, it could be an opportune time to lead with that sort of messaging.
We could more or less camouflage it under some kind of hardcore, daring and unflinching vibe. Show empathy and tolerance, but make it look like we’re a fearless Sean Penn and couldn’t give less of a fuck.
ironically Sean Penn is woke as fuck by anyone’s standards. We desperately need that kind of energy tho, Leftist Men who have Strength, Values and Personality. Very lacking right now, and has left a terrible vacuum that’s being filled with absolute red-pill garbage.
Definitely agree courage is key. These boys seem to idolize fearlessness, even when it’s clearly fake (tate), pathological (joker), self-destructive (bateman), or simply the result of having power (homelander).
Of course, real courage isn’t “fearless” at all, just the strength to defy it for a worthy cause, but that’s exactly the kind of thing they could learn from a better example like Sean Penn (afaik).
It would be extra timely too, since news these days is filled with headlines detailing the cowardice of US leadership, feeding the fascist takeover, when courage has always been the purest form of antifascism we know.
For Youtubers, I wish H. Bomberguy would post more often because I’ve seen him cited as some people’s animus for de-radicalization. Abigail Thorn of Philosophy Tube was another good “male role model” prior to her transition and a lot of viewers commented about how she gave them a better model of masculinity to emulate (particularly ironic as she turned out to be trans). I think FD Signifier is a good example for young black men in particular, and Devin of Legal Eagle is a fine example of a successful professional for those that are more business-minded.
Yeah, Sean Penn is fucking amazing. 🫶
It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken
The authors of this describe the situation accurately enough. Even though a Netflix show is presented as evidence of, … something.
They lost me with the “begging the question” prescription for censorship and online control. I also don’t like the aesthetics of arguing that boys are dangerous without putting into context how much young men suffer under modern material conditions.
This weird Netflix show is being brought up on the news as well, they’re using it as proof that we need more patriot act, likely labeling them domestic terrorists who don’t require due process.
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the fuck are you both sidesing here?
Lemmy, supposed to be more open minded
Source?
What makes you think the gathering place for people banned from Reddit will be more open-minded?
Valid point, I guess, but it’s not exactly the internet specifically that’s the source of the issue IMO. I’d say that people hating specific musicians whose music they don’t like/annoys them has been an issue for aeons, but it’s harder to completely escape their tunes now that it’s played practically everywhere 24/7 - mall PAs, the cell phones of people passing you in the street, etc.
The 'net is just the most recent forum to gripe about how annoying so-and-so’s music is, although in a sense it seems to have gotten more extreme in the vacuum provided by online forums. It would take quite a bit for a conversation about an annoying lutist, opera diva, etc. to escalate to plans for murder in the 1st-19th centuries by comparison, despite it presumably happening a few times probably.
My bean, if you think killing someone is a reasonable response to an ever-present annoying tune you should probably speak to someone.
…and also stay away from Michael buble
I’m not saying it’s reasonable per se, just that it’s not as rare as one might hope. People have been killed for much less all throughout history.
True, but it’s not the sole factor.
People snapping at stupid shit only happens when there are other absolutely untenable forces at play that already have them running at near insanity.
Uhhh… You think they plotted to kill people because of her music?
This was far-right, anti-lgbtq, “anti-woke” terrorism.
Was it? Ooh damn, that fits the profile to a “T” then. I don’t follow celebrity news, I guess that she’s a pretty staunch/vocal supporter of LGBT+ issues?
she is, and she also has a massive LGBT+ following. you’d expect that crowd to have a decent percentage.
Relax people would kill you for wearing blue shoes. We’re animals at the end of the day and uncivilized when we get to it. Don’t rationalize this extreme.
Pshh, of course a red footed grey sock wearing aglet lover would say that.
